Moots: Ancient Rome Paper

[torzio]

from data on post# 761

my plot with these ancients



I am near the top

Very top one is Proto-villanovan , I sit under that

 

[Maciamo]

I think what people are arguing here is simply that Proto-Italics were more probably French-like or even British-like than like some other steppe-admixed population more to the east of Switzerland/South Germany. Of course by the time Iron Age Latins, Oscans etc. existed they were not Proto-Italic anymore, but predominantly local Italians in ancestry.

That's the way I see it too. Proto-Italics, before intermingling with the indigenous people if Italy, were very probably the same Urnfield/Hallstatt people that expanded all over Western Europe. The Y-DNA tells the same story. Both groups were R1b-U152. If we exclude the Remedello and Kura-Araxes components from Iron Age Latins, Etrsucans and Villanovans, we get something close to German Bell Beaker and North Alpine Late Bronze Age.

 

[Angela]

We have quite a few Bronze Age samples from those areas, and from Spain. I don't remember anyone getting good matches with them, although I just may have missed a post here and there.

NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_43,5.01,0.00,0.13,0.00,45.31,32.18,0.00,0.00,3.09,1.44,12.35,0.48
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30,0.19
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,40.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99

BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,54.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95

BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21.76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52.24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00,61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49


@hrvclv,

You're asking the wrong person. I didn't quit the Board because we use "racist" data. After investigating this person a little more, however, if you're asking me if I am cautious about using his samples, the answer is yes. I certainly wouldn't put it past him to choose samples which he "likes". I prefer to use academic samples for that reason.

Anyway, as to your question about where the Balkan Bronze Age people plot, they do indeed plot in Northern Italy.

My closest match in that area.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #79FF00, align: right"]3.56275646[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A3FF00, align: right"]4.78770749[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A8FF00, align: right"]4.93995082[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AFFF00, align: right"]5.14574766[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B7FF00, align: right"]5.39127537[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]6.07536254[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DEFF00, align: right"]6.54086099[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFE00, align: right"]7.53474883[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]8.14842046[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDF00, align: right"]8.45013349[/TD]
[TD]Italy_FriuliVG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDA00, align: right"]8.57974941[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]9.78872702[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6F00, align: right"]11.74627933[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6500, align: right"]12.03777155[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5C00, align: right"]12.29336406[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5800, align: right"]12.42080915[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1200, align: right"]14.46197428[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0015, align: right"]15.62894430[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0032, align: right"]16.46757724[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0045, align: right"]17.02095179[/TD]
[TD]Gagauz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004B, align: right"]17.19215810[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0056, align: right"]17.51714611[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006B, align: right"]18.13725448[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0076, align: right"]18.47098536[/TD]
[TD]Pomak[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0077, align: right"]18.50866554[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #46FF00, align: right"]2.05818124[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #47FF00, align: right"]2.08280268[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #71FF00, align: right"]3.31002147[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #87FF00, align: right"]3.97854245[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B8FF00, align: right"]5.39777455[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BBFF00, align: right"]5.50472684[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C1FF00, align: right"]5.66402703[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EBFF00, align: right"]6.91328981[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6FF00, align: right"]7.23471478[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6FF00, align: right"]7.24753020[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF400, align: right"]7.82929729[/TD]
[TD]Italy_FriuliVG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCA00, align: right"]9.04881553[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBF00, align: right"]9.38126857[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBB00, align: right"]9.49702164[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAC00, align: right"]9.92970795[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6100, align: right"]12.16136360[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.05936781[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2000, align: right"]14.06452985[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1700, align: right"]14.32569370[/TD]
[TD]Gagauz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0400, align: right"]14.88985722[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001C, align: right"]15.82283559[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0022, align: right"]16.01395641[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002E, align: right"]16.34666893[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0031, align: right"]16.44254238[/TD]
[TD]Pomak[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0051, align: right"]17.39657438[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BronzeAgeNorthernSpain_I2472[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECFF00, align: right"]6.93994957[/TD]
[TD]Cantabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFB00, align: right"]7.60840982[/TD]
[TD]Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]7.89670184[/TD]
[TD]Aragon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]8.13528733[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCF00, align: right"]8.92260612[/TD]
[TD]Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCC00, align: right"]8.98898771[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.40866090[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB900, align: right"]9.54614582[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9600, align: right"]10.57576948[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7E00, align: right"]11.28035017[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7600, align: right"]11.51678341[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6C00, align: right"]11.81892127[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6200, align: right"]12.12418657[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4400, align: right"]12.99507599[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0036, align: right"]16.59701479[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0070, align: right"]18.28149611[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0073, align: right"]18.37217733[/TD]
[TD]Pais_Vasco[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007B, align: right"]18.62023621[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0088, align: right"]18.98989731[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B8, align: right"]20.41847846[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DE, align: right"]21.54235178[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E7, align: right"]21.79206914[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F200FF, align: right"]22.89247366[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CF00FF, align: right"]23.89897278[/TD]
[TD]French_Basque[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CD00FF, align: right"]23.97438409[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.82477106[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3FF00, align: right"]7.14394849[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF300, align: right"]7.86105591[/TD]
[TD]Mixed_Germanic[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC900, align: right"]9.09198548[/TD]
[TD]Dutch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB700, align: right"]9.62276987[/TD]
[TD]Kent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA500, align: right"]10.16121056[/TD]
[TD]CEU30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA000, align: right"]10.28466820[/TD]
[TD]English[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9300, align: right"]10.68832073[/TD]
[TD]German[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8000, align: right"]11.24242856[/TD]
[TD]British_Isles[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7600, align: right"]11.53092364[/TD]
[TD]Cornwall[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6300, align: right"]12.09670203[/TD]
[TD]British[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5100, align: right"]12.60727134[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3200, align: right"]13.53023281[/TD]
[TD]Irish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2F00, align: right"]13.63107479[/TD]
[TD]Argyll[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2800, align: right"]13.82049927[/TD]
[TD]Orcadian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2300, align: right"]13.96088106[/TD]
[TD]Orkney[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]15.01126044[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001D, align: right"]15.84988643[/TD]
[TD]Croat[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0028, align: right"]16.18187914[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002E, align: right"]16.35549449[/TD]
[TD]Hungarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004C, align: right"]17.23638303[/TD]
[TD]Bosnian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0052, align: right"]17.40403562[/TD]
[TD]Italy_FriuliVG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0078, align: right"]18.53435189[/TD]
[TD]Norwegian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0080, align: right"]18.75241745[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0083, align: right"]18.86537145[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

All of the Iron Age samples were done on the Vahaduo thread, but for those who haven't seen them, this is a taste of it. These are both members of Latin tribes in the Iron Age.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R851_Iron_Age_Ardea[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]8.35141305[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8600, align: right"]11.06513726[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8000, align: right"]11.22772016[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7C00, align: right"]11.36204724[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7400, align: right"]11.58294024[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7000, align: right"]11.69795281[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5500, align: right"]12.50926457[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5300, align: right"]12.55556052[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.58474155[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5100, align: right"]12.62493168[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.85807528[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]12.91240102[/TD]
[TD]Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3B00, align: right"]13.25537439[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3200, align: right"]13.51998891[/TD]
[TD]Cantabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3200, align: right"]13.52852172[/TD]
[TD]Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2E00, align: right"]13.65238807[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2800, align: right"]13.82352452[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2800, align: right"]13.82596109[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2500, align: right"]13.90869071[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1400, align: right"]14.40460104[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1100, align: right"]14.50117581[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0A00, align: right"]14.70424769[/TD]
[TD]Aragon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0001, align: right"]15.02386488[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001B, align: right"]15.80394096[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002F, align: right"]16.38091682[/TD]
[TD]Italy_FriuliVG[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

No one is really close to him, but as I have said repeatedly, he and other samples are somewhere in a no man's land between some Spaniards and northern Italians. Swiss Italians, for example are extremely like Lombards.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R850_Iron_Age_Ardea[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #85FF00, align: right"]3.90799181[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3FF00, align: right"]7.13377179[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFA00, align: right"]7.63860109[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF700, align: right"]7.74058137[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF400, align: right"]7.82175172[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA800, align: right"]10.04684154[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9700, align: right"]10.57089239[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8C00, align: right"]10.88449356[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Cappadocia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7B00, align: right"]11.39101962[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6B00, align: right"]11.86263040[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6300, align: right"]12.08694751[/TD]
[TD]Nusayri_Turkey[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5F00, align: right"]12.19292418[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]12.92056940[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4000, align: right"]13.12759689[/TD]
[TD]Crimean_Tatar_Coast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3E00, align: right"]13.17106678[/TD]
[TD]Turk_West_BlackSea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3300, align: right"]13.49063008[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Central_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1C00, align: right"]14.16544387[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1300, align: right"]14.43175665[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Central_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1300, align: right"]14.45064012[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Anatolia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0007, align: right"]15.19421600[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Southwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0007, align: right"]15.21064759[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0019, align: right"]15.74333510[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Northwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0020, align: right"]15.93597503[/TD]
[TD]Turk_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0021, align: right"]15.96534685[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Central_Black_Sea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0036, align: right"]16.59878610[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Southeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Our only "upper class" burial:

To reiterate, I find that "Corsican" sample highly suspect, but, whatever...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE600, align: right"]8.24389471[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB200, align: right"]9.75583505[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9200, align: right"]10.70371038[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8100, align: right"]11.20965620[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7D00, align: right"]11.32371847[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7A00, align: right"]11.42504540[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7A00, align: right"]11.42629424[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7600, align: right"]11.51494216[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6D00, align: right"]11.79780955[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6800, align: right"]11.95574339[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6300, align: right"]12.07648128[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.59229129[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5100, align: right"]12.60429252[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5000, align: right"]12.64712420[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4800, align: right"]12.89660874[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4400, align: right"]12.99406788[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.07247260[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.45805707[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1900, align: right"]14.26729827[/TD]
[TD]Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1600, align: right"]14.36500609[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.53080865[/TD]
[TD]Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0700, align: right"]14.78261817[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0200, align: right"]14.93880183[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0100, align: right"]14.97183356[/TD]
[TD]Cantabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000C, align: right"]15.34615261[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It remains to be seen, imo, whether that more "western" Beaker input we see in some of the Parma Beakers samples lasted in Italy or indeed how far it extended, given that one of the samples had almost no "Beaker", as indeed the Sicily "Beaker" samples had not "Beaker" genetic influence.

Let's hope the upcoming Reich paper has more Bronze Age northern and southern Italian samples.

 

[Ygorcs]

As others have tried to point out, the modern British are not "Celts". Not even the Irish and Scottish, and perhaps not even the Welsh, are "Celts". You know that, surely.

Take a look at my post number 771. I address the issue tangentially.

As I said, Piemontese or western Lombards might skew differently. I don't know, but I don't see that pull in the results of the Italian posters on our Board.

Oops, sorry, I meant Bronze Age/Early Iron Age British and French, not modern ones.

 

[Angela]

Oops, sorry, I meant Bronze Age/Early Iron Age British and French, not modern ones.

Don't see them either, in either modern or ancient samples.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Ygorcs:

Don't the Welsh among the peoples of the UK have more Neolithic Early European Farmer DNA vs. the Scottish, Irish and English. The Scottish and English having more Celtic Steppe, less Neolithic and the English having Germanic Anglo-Saxon from even further North in Central Europe. So among NW Europeans, the Welsh have often been seen to resemble peoples in South West France and maybe some association with the Basque in Spain. So those women could definitely move to Italy and fit right in pretty much in any region, at least in my opinion.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

steppe ancestry probably entered Europe probably 5 - 4,5 ka via the Carpathian Basin
from then on it got diluted more and more with European meso/neo/chalcolithic DNA
IMO the Italic people had it in already diluted form before entering Italy where they admixed further with pré-Italic Italian DNA
so, Indeed these Italic people prior to entering Italy could very well have been Halstatt-like

Your statement is not inconsistent with my hypothesis. The Steppe which brought in Indo-European language and the movement of peoples associated with it covered a large area of land from North to South. I don't have the site in front of me but I think Lazaridis in one of his papers notes the Steppe was 57% EHG and 43% CHG. I wonder if that ratio varied North to South, i.e. the further South you go, the more CHG relative to EHG whereas North it is just the opposite, More EHG vs. CHG. In addition, the Pre-Italics/Latins route being further South would have taken them in areas that may have already had more EEF than areas further North which might have had more residual WHG. So what is the exact route the Proto-Italics took and what lands they crossed would perhaps suggest what peoples they married and intermixed with.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Well like Salento, I don't seem to clustering with the English Romans that played in the 1970's BBC PBS show I Claudius, which was and still is one heck of a Show. Just to remind folks, American of Sicilian Italian Ancestry (Totalmente) from insular inland towns in the regions of Trapani, Palermo and Agrigento.

 

[Angela]

Forgot to provide the original dodecad source results...

I get a reasonably good fit to this sample...

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AFFF00, align: right"]5.15760603[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]7.87889586[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE600, align: right"]8.24389471[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7D00, align: right"]11.32371847[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7A00, align: right"]11.42629424[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6800, align: right"]11.95574339[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6300, align: right"]12.07648128[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5D00, align: right"]12.25715301[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.59229129[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4400, align: right"]12.99406788[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.45805707[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1F00, align: right"]14.10107088[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1900, align: right"]14.26729827[/TD]
[TD]Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1600, align: right"]14.36500609[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.53080865[/TD]
[TD]Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0700, align: right"]14.78261817[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0200, align: right"]14.93880183[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0100, align: right"]14.97183356[/TD]
[TD]Cantabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0015, align: right"]15.63196725[/TD]
[TD]Aragon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0035, align: right"]16.57335814[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0062, align: right"]17.87135417[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D5, align: right"]21.26400715[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EA, align: right"]21.89108266[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8200FF, align: right"]26.17368526[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7F00FF, align: right"]26.26928054[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Target: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
Distance: 2.4369% / 2.43685038 | ADC: 0.25x

76.8North_Italian
9.4Valencia
7.4Andalucia
5.4Sardinian
0.8Pulliyar
0.2Nganassan

And this one, an Etruscan one...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B2FF00, align: right"]5.24512154[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]8.03976368[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE700, align: right"]8.21257572[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.85773457[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7200, align: right"]11.64063572[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6400, align: right"]12.06155048[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6100, align: right"]12.15138675[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5500, align: right"]12.49035628[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4D00, align: right"]12.74874111[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.84337962[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4300, align: right"]13.02558636[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1800, align: right"]14.29485922[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1100, align: right"]14.48704249[/TD]
[TD]Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1100, align: right"]14.48716673[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0E00, align: right"]14.59809577[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0001, align: right"]15.02812031[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0001, align: right"]15.03589040[/TD]
[TD]Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0004, align: right"]15.10769340[/TD]
[TD]Cantabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0021, align: right"]15.97660790[/TD]
[TD]Aragon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0036, align: right"]16.59626464[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0063, align: right"]17.91761982[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CB, align: right"]20.96794697[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DF, align: right"]21.55915815[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8A00FF, align: right"]25.93064596[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8100FF, align: right"]26.20529908[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

As I said, we've posted results for all of them.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Angela: You are correct, all of us descendants of Italian immigrants from various regions have been posting our results. These 2 as you note cluster close to modern Northern Italians and looking down the list, I don't see Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Germans, or English showing up. Heck, even us poor old Sicilian-Italians are doing better on your list than those other modern populations. Who'd thunk it?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Your statement is not inconsistent with my hypothesis. The Steppe which brought in Indo-European language and the movement of peoples associated with it covered a large area of land from North to South. I don't have the site in front of me but I think Lazaridis in one of his papers notes the Steppe was 57% EHG and 43% CHG. I wonder if that ratio varied North to South, i.e. the further South you go, the more CHG relative to EHG whereas North it is just the opposite, More EHG vs. CHG. In addition, the Pre-Italics/Latins route being further South would have taken them in areas that may have already had more EEF than areas further North which might have had more residual WHG. So what is the exact route the Proto-Italics took and what lands they crossed would perhaps suggest what peoples they married and intermixed with.

there is a large variation in BellBeaker DNA
they all have steppe DNA admixed with European neolithic/chalcolithic, but all in different proportions
if I remember well, Iberian continental Bell Beaker (with R1b Y-DNA) had more than British, who were allready 50 % admixed

I think the pure CHG is what Maciamo refers to as 'Kura-Araxes like' :

Thanks for your analysis, Ygorcs. Very interesting.

I also noticed that Iron-age Latins appear to be closest to Southeast French and North Italians.

I agree that the original Italic tribes would have been very Celtic-like as they share common roots in the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. The Urnfield culture spread to northern Italy, but also Southeast France and Catalonia, which may be why, with the shared ancestry, many Iron Age Latin samples score high similarities with southern France and Catalonia in addition to northern Italy.

Hallstatt and La Tène Celts from around the Alps later spread to Belgium, France, Iberia and Britain, so it isn't surprising to find similarities between Bronze/Iron Age Iberia, Gaul and Britain and Iron Age central and northern Italy (including Etruscans).

Like Angela said, the people living in Italy prior to the Italic invasions probably possessed some Near Eastern Kura-Araxes-like (Bronze Age Armenia/Anatolia/Levant) admixture. So when Villanovans and Italics mixed with them that gave us the hybrid individuals we witness in Iron Age Latium.

I would think that Iron Age South Italians would be a blend of that Kura-Araxes-like people with genetically similar Greek colonists. That's why imperial, medieval and modern South Italians are so close to the Greeks. The original South Italians were already quite Greek-like.

where would that Kura-Araxes have come from?
from Myceneans and Greeks maybe?

there is a paper about the western Medittaranean (Sardinia, Baleares, Iberia), and if I recall well it shows only late (phoenician/greek) arrival of this type of admixture

on the other hand, that type of admixture may already have arrived in the Aegean and in Troy during early Heladic (Cycladic culture) and slightly prior to the foundation of Troy, ca 5 ka
by the time of Myceneans the incoming Kura-Araxes was already heavily admixed with Aegean or Anatolian EEF and had also recieved a tad of steppe

 

[Angela]

Sicilians get quite good results with R437, as do Southern Italians, and this is an Iron Age sample let's not forget. Indeed, their fits are much better than what I get.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9CFF00, align: right"]4.59913035[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A4FF00, align: right"]4.83577295[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E1FF00, align: right"]6.62618291[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA400, align: right"]10.16248001[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9900, align: right"]10.49031935[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9400, align: right"]10.64005169[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7F00, align: right"]11.26179382[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7A00, align: right"]11.40172794[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6F00, align: right"]11.72748055[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6600, align: right"]11.99572424[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]12.92229856[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008A, align: right"]19.05535620[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0098, align: right"]19.48090090[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F9, align: right"]22.31406731[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9D00FF, align: right"]25.38137112[/TD]
[TD]Turkish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8C00FF, align: right"]25.88563308[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8A00FF, align: right"]25.93160234[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6100FF, align: right"]27.15757721[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5700FF, align: right"]27.42830655[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3F00FF, align: right"]28.16090197[/TD]
[TD]Turks[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3400FF, align: right"]28.45628226[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1000FF, align: right"]29.54386569[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0B00FF, align: right"]29.68206361[/TD]
[TD]Syrians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.21483080[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.27705732[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

A bit of Moroccan Jew shows up, but nowhere near the affinity of the Bronze Age Sicilian Beaker with them.

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
Distance: 2.1728% / 2.17279692 | ADC: 0.5x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]76.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]18.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]C_Italian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Andalucia[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Sardinian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

---

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
Distance: 1.2030% / 1.20299496 | ADC: 0.25x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]76.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]C_Italian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Andalucia[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Sardinian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Brahui[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

Bronze Age Beaker from Sicily...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005E, align: right"]17.75790528[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006C, align: right"]18.18684415[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007D, align: right"]18.68690451[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008E, align: right"]19.18726140[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.20363412[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D8, align: right"]21.34804441[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F2, align: right"]22.10654428[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E200FF, align: right"]23.35725583[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C900FF, align: right"]24.08437253[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8500FF, align: right"]26.09522945[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5D00FF, align: right"]27.25755308[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5900FF, align: right"]27.37371002[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2400FF, align: right"]28.92887312[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.30025412[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.40130237[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.58367245[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.04589848[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.06321149[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.24731195[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.29380966[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.44868122[/TD]
[TD]Turkish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.86672413[/TD]
[TD]Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]36.96170992[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]37.15035128[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]37.28312085[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
Distance: 6.5012% / 6.50120497 | ADC: 0.25x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]49.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Cypriots[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]40.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Sardinian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Mozabite[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]

There's a huge hole in the Antonio et al paper because they didn't address this issue of additional ancestry from the Near East showing up in Italy in the Bronze Age, and their "hypothesis" or "theory" of the changes in Italian genetics over time suffers from it. We're not seeing the whole picture yet, imo.

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
Distance: 6.5012% / 6.50120497 | ADC: 0.25x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]49.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Cypriots[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]40.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Sardinian[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Mozabite[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Morocco_Jews[/TD]

 

[Ygorcs]

Don't see them either, in either modern or ancient samples.

So who do you understand the Proto-Italic portion of the Italic genetic structure was closest to? I also get LN/EBA Germany affinities, but generally also including a more "western" (Iberia, France) EEF, so I don't see the possibility of a source population much to the east of Western European BB types.

 

[hrvclv]

Ygorcs:

Don't the Welsh among the peoples of the UK have more Neolithic Early European Farmer DNA vs. the Scottish, Irish and English. The Scottish and English having more Celtic Steppe, less Neolithic and the English having Germanic Anglo-Saxon from even further North in Central Europe. So among NW Europeans, the Welsh have often been seen to resemble peoples in South West France and maybe some association with the Basque in Spain. So those women could definitely move to Italy and fit right in pretty much in any region, at least in my opinion.

Of course these are "bottom line" results. They don't tell us via which population (Britain MN, BB, Gauls, Romans, Saxons, Vikings...) brought which genes.

 

[hrvclv]

The Italian results (Modern)

 

[Angela]

So who do you understand the Proto-Italic portion of the Italic genetic structure was closest to? I also get LN/EBA Germany affinities, but generally also including a more "western" (Iberia, France) EEF, so I don't see the possibility of a source population much to the east of Western European BB types.

I'm not sure of the answer.

I'm just reporting what I see. I don't see any appreciable affinity of Northern Italians with German BB or French BB. The affinities I see are all with Balkan samples, not German or French. I personally get a lot of matches with Spanish and Portuguese samples, but after the Iron Age, not before.

Now, such affinities might exist in the Piemontese or the western Lombards. I don't know. None have posted. I know you can see it in some of the Valle Aosta samples, but they're not really Italians from my perspective.

They did exist in two of the Parma Beakers, but how widespread that influence was and whether it lasted is unknown to me. I get a hit only to one of the samples, the one with very little steppe, from what I remember. We really need more Bronze Age samples from both northern and southern Italy.

If they do exist in some Northern Italians, then maybe we're talking about two streams into Italy of slightly different steppe admixed peoples.

If it doesn't, then, I don't know.


Also, there's of course this...

My particular area shows affinity to both Irish Bronze Age and Hungarian Bronze Age, but most of Italy has no connection to Irish Bronze Age, not even more northern areas than mine. Before the Parma Beaker samples and the Iron Age Italian samples came out I assumed that the Irish Bronze Age influence was from the Iron Age, i.e. the "Celtic" invasions. That's how the Ligurians became the Celt-Ligurians. Perhaps it was earlier, though, as we can see from Parma Beaker, or it was both. I think it covers the northern Etruscan area as well but not really southern Etruria and Rome.

I had opined on one post that perhaps it might be a clue that the "Etruscans" took a different route south into Italy than the Latin affiliated tribes, but Pax took great exception to it.

I have to check how many Hungarian samples we have. By some analyses, I'm extremely close to the more "Southern European" Szolad samples. Maybe they weren't relict, isolated "Romans" after all.

 

[hrvclv]

The same, with a Near Eastern source (When applicable, it tends to bring the Anatolian down a bit)

 

[hrvclv]

Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b

0.03675835 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.04002633 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.04341762 HUN_BA:I7040
0.04531833 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.05019973 HUN_BA:I7043
0.05020603 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.05162455 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.05496288 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.05755096 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.06022575 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.06342869 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.06362020 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.07387832 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.07600874 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.09528762 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.09874883 CZE_EBA:I7201
0.10138338 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.10147843 CZE_EBA:I4892
0.10212855 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.10547954 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.10627913 CZE_EBA:I7202
0.10631677 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
0.10946105 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.11053948 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415adult_d
0.11102731 CZE_EBA:I4884

Distance to: ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016

0.03645436 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.04296666 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.04703267 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.05055921 HUN_BA:I7040
0.05296068 HUN_BA:I7043
0.05696050 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.05715747 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.07224907 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.08058219 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.08389966 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.08606722 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.08622884 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
0.08643854 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.08828742 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.09094623 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
0.09136644 HUN_BA:I7042
0.09284722 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.09569667 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.10043120 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.10289433 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.10649018 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.11085806 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.12473158 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.12780555 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.13264803 CZE_EBA:I4892

Distance to: ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015

0.03529712 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.04053185 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.04445669 HUN_BA:I7040
0.05038741 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.05115129 HUN_BA:I7043
0.05909810 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.06253735 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.07031813 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.07932345 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.08469561 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.08723023 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.08723503 HUN_BA:I7042
0.08771433 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
0.08801768 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.09048659 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.09099420 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
0.09702071 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.09806956 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.09866103 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.10329891 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.10780411 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.11014032 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.12556804 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.12777818 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.13008604 CZE_EBA:I7201

Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1

0.03663236 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.03681141 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.03825269 HUN_BA:I7043
0.03886406 HUN_BA:I7040
0.05087999 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.05421105 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.06347716 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.07251258 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.07637189 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.07674899 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.07875470 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.07934288 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.08455779 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.08483528 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.09170111 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.09382116 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.09405861 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.10601722 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.10900788 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.11113236 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.11299805 CZE_EBA:I7201
0.11405907 CZE_EBA:I7202
0.11511215 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.11715919 HUN_BA:I7042
0.11842167 CZE_EBA:I4892

Distance to: ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b

0.02947394 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.03048724 HUN_BA:I7040
0.03149719 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.03155726 HUN_BA:I7043
0.03666060 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.04058545 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.04218627 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.05830453 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.06441887 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.06790251 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.06902526 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.07811073 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.08174837 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.08466554 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.08510485 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.08826851 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.09625363 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.10462609 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.10489784 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.10556859 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.10557984 HUN_BA:I7042
0.10604794 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.10962435 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
0.11020110 CZE_EBA:I7201
0.11132451 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489

Distance to: ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473

0.03882498 HUN_BA:I7040
0.04793418 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.05059259 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.05156205 HUN_BA:I7043
0.05341671 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.05455755 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.05521485 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.07658676 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.08276730 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.08321317 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.08404973 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.08644575 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.08994418 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.09052788 HUN_BA:I7042
0.09058468 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.09085964 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
0.09326179 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
0.09402630 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.09685247 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.10373999 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.10534016 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.10667801 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.12860375 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.12962410 CZE_EBA:I7201
0.13258347 CZE_EBA:I7200

Distance to: ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021

0.03955076 HUN_BA:I7040
0.04891343 HUN_BA:I7043
0.05003593 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.05524475 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.05593812 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.05757211 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.05871093 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.07886437 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.08223083 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.08314325 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.08619195 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.08658454 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.08807274 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.09000511 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.09374318 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE487
0.09387825 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.09747214 HUN_BA:I7042
0.09855841 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE489
0.10296225 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.10397961 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.10463181 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.10675926 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.12268479 CZE_EBA:I7201
0.12470784 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.12907313 CZE_EBA:I7200

Distance to: ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1

0.03663236 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.03681141 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.03825269 HUN_BA:I7043
0.03886406 HUN_BA:I7040
0.05087999 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.05421105 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_44
0.06347716 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_50
0.07251258 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
0.07637189 DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412
0.07674899 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119
0.07875470 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78
0.07934288 DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2
0.08455779 CZE_EBA:I7196
0.08483528 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.09170111 DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415child
0.09382116 DEU_Lech_EBAOST_6
0.09405861 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.10601722 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
0.10900788 CZE_EBA:I7200
0.11113236 CZE_EBA:I7195
0.11299805 CZE_EBA:I7201
0.11405907 CZE_EBA:I7202
0.11511215 ITA_Remedello_BA:RISE486
0.11715919 HUN_BA:I7042
0.11842167 CZE_EBA:I4892

 

[hrvclv]

Looks like those guys didn't all come from exactly the same spots. Might explain the diversity of dialects : Latin, Faliscan, etc... all of them close, but clearly distinct. With differences suggesting they had been apart a while.

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

Anybody wants to be the "real" Romans but for god's sake let's not say that modern Italians are the descendents of the historical populations that inhabited Italy: I'll be honest and say that I deem both blood and culture to be needful for a people to make up an ethnic group, thus in my theoretical framework to deny the genetic continuity that the Italians have with the populations that lived in Italy is to sunder Italians from their heritage. Putting my personal perpective aside, the majority of studies have shown that there is a strong genetic continuity between Italians and populations in Italy since the iron age, so any extravagant claim straight from the XX century of "original" Italians/Latins/Italics that built the roman civilization coming from North Europe is pratically groundless; moreover, to focus so much on the fact that proto-italics had higher steppe-related ancestry than later italics is to divert the attention from the equally true fact that it was not the proto-italics that developed the italic cultures ( of which latin's was a part ) but later italics with lower steppe-related ancestry, so "british-like" proto-italics were not the ones responsible for the achievements of the subsequent italian people with low steppe-related ancestry. As for Davidsky, just today I scrolled down the comments of one post about "a whole new ancestry brought in Europe by the Romans/ancient Greeks", and unironically he believes that the all the historical Italian and Greek populations were like northern Italians/continental Europe (with the elites being germanic/slavic-like, of course! ) and that modern central and southern Italians are "mutts", so modern central and southern Italians not only are not the heirs of the classical greco-roman culture, but they are also not quite native to Europe and they ought to be kicked out of Europe! ( it sounds like a parody, but he himself really wrote that... ). These comments were from 2016 but in the last post he made about ancient Italians he still modelled the latin outliers, who cluster with modern day southern Italians, as italic-"semitic", and it speaks volumes about his incapacity of changing his initial theories when the data do not support them. finally let's also debunk a common accusation made by his folk to anyone criticising his models: it is not racist to say that in Italy there is not any significant gene flow from the middle east (escluding the EEF and neolithic Iran ), and to be fair many "semitic" peoples had great civilizations before any indo-european people, but I could argue that it is indeed racist to keep postulating biblical movement of people from all the middle east in order to make more than half of the population of Italy appear as the least "european" of all the continent, and to keep saying that the real responsible of all the classical civilizations were northern steppe pastoralists whose most closely related descendents are the eastern Europeans ( and of course Poles are especially related to them because of "muh R1a").