Macedonians

Iapetoc,

I did not make you to be anything.

The thread was created to provide a place where the information and conclusions can be dicussed. It was not created so that all will agree 100% with any particular person.

I don't what else I am supposed to say. This thread will contain posts from many individuals who disagree with you on far more points of this issue than I do. The only point of mine with which you seem to have a problem is that I allow the name Macedonian to indicate two different things for two different eras.
 
leaving in An area named Delaware by Usaers , does not make you a delaware, when delaware nation exist,

all the rest is imperialistic propaganda of gun industry, and politicians wgho gain by war,

I still dont understanded what the fyromians will earn by that?

only hate and wars

BESIDES EVERY BODY KNOWS THAT THEY ARE FAKE MAKEDONIANS.

AND CLAIMING AS BEFORE THAT MODERN MAKEDONIANS ARE SLAVS YOU JUST MAKE ME A SLAV,

CAUSE I M A MODERN MAKEDONIAN

the makedonia that catherin2 was dreamingas also some others bulgarians after 1876,
and today some politicks, will never be exist,
only by force,
we shall not admit to a state of 3 nations, cause that was roman then british, Russian and today USA politic,
to create states that are not 1 nation but many,
we have our problems, we don't want inserted ones by others who want to divine and conquer

and what language will have the state that fyromians claim?
bulgarian? Greek? cause there is no Makedonian language,
only an ancient Greek dialect
and only a today mixed bulgarian dialect?
so create problem with lingua
which will be the prime minister?
a Fyrom or a Greek?
which will the national anthem?
the greek makedonian or the fyrom one?

you see we dont need to enter that bullshit,
simply find a name for them, without stealing my name
and co-existance

what are you trying to do people, a new 2 lingua switzerland in balkans?
or a state like belgium?

since as you say they are slavs let them name their country as yugo-slavia
or zapad-bulgaria or VestBulgaria, Paeonia, Bardaska, albano-slavia, J B TITOnia. Sandaskya
Nova-slavia, Central-Balkania, etc
the name i accept with mak in it
is PSEUDO-MAKEDONIA

AND I M NOT A SLAV
CAUSE I AM MAKEDONIAN


 
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I will not keep stating my point over and over. The "all or none" method of debate does not invite discussion or encourage others to join in.
At some point you are going to want to defer or concede to some points made by others, especially when doing so does not hurt the substance of your own argument. I know that nothing I mentioned would make those that have opposed you here happy with me, so I don't know why you need to be so upset by mere peripheral points.
 
iapetoc

I agree that there is a conflict of definition that should fall out in favor of the Greek Macedonian region. But is this really as important an issue as people are making it?

Still, the area seem to be part of historic Macedonia, and they identify themselves as Macedonians which seem to be accepted by most of the world. Would Upper Macedonia be a better name? Whatever one does they will still call themselves Macedonian.

It can be twisted and turned and somehow everyone in this naming conflict is right one way or another. Why not accept these people as Macedonian by geography.
 
vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it
 
Elias2 said:
vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it
Click to expand...

Vardarska Makedonija or Vardar Macedonia

sounds as a good compromise to me... it keeps name Macedonia so that Macedonians from FYRM are not forced to change their self-identity... and it also suggest that it is a specific area within larger area called Macedonia...

was it ever proposed by some of the sides in conflict?
 
I know greece is looking for a compromise but FYROM won't have any of it. There is another round of negotiations 9th of febuary in New York, maybe they will have a breakthrough.
 
the fact is that none of populations wants a war,
except some stupid extra nationalists

many years now FYROMians came at summer time here,
the old time greeks went to ochrid and skopjie, (me 2 times)
and only some stupids push the subject,

but it is a problem. both people know that are different, but althought each blames or curses the other, NO kills no Terrorism (bombs) happened.
only legal demonstrations, we live in peace,

BUT WE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT
our heroes are the devils for them,
and also their heroes are the devils for us.

and about ancient Makedonian Language look at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

the man wrote a lexicon before the problem,
 
Elias2 said:
vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it
Click to expand...

Vardarska Macedonia is probably better name than North or Upper Macedonia, but it is evident that a solution must be found, but nobody will be able to wait forever.

The part of the problem is the current nationalist elites in Macedonia FYROM and they certainly has more flexible negotiators compared with the current.
 
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So what if Macedonia calls itself just Macedonia? Greeks are going to start a war to take the name away?!
They start economic sanctions? There are so many countries to trade with these days. There would be no economic effect at all.
I'll say take the name Macedonia, get over with it, and we have fewer stupid issues to discuss.
If Greeks are playing hard ball, I'd call Macedonia "Greece Superior" or "Pikna Grecia" just to play a hard ball, and see what they would do. They would probably waste a year in parliament to figure out what to do with it, without a solution of course.

I have Greek friends, and like Greece a lot, but this issue of Macedonia name is ridiculous.
 
LeBrok said:
So what if Macedonia calls itself just Macedonia? Greeks are going to start a war to take the name away?!
They start economic sanctions? There are so many countries to trade with these days. There would be no economic effect at all.
I'll say take the name Macedonia, get over with it, and we have fewer stupid issues to discuss.
If Greeks are playing hard ball, I'd call Macedonia "Greece Superior" or "Pikna Grecia" just to play a hard ball, and see what they would do. They would probably waste a year in parliament to figure out what to do with it, without a solution of course.

I have Greek friends, and like Greece a lot, but this issue of Macedonia name is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

If you take that stance you are promoting more conflict in the balkans and not solving it.
 
My point was that the conflict for the name of the country is the most ridiculous of all. People in Greece should be smarter than this, and just let it go.
For the time being people of Balkans are picking the smallest reason to divide and segregate than to find any to unite the Balkans.
Other than that Greece should concentrate on solving big economic and social problems in Greece than dick around with who is worthy of Macedonia name.
 
LeBrok said:
My point was that the conflict for the name of the country is the most ridiculous of all. People in Greece should be smarter than this, and just let it go.
For the time being people of Balkans are picking the smallest reason to divide and segregate than to find any to unite the Balkans.
Other than that Greece should concentrate on solving big economic and social problems in Greece than dick around with who is worthy of Macedonia name.
Click to expand...


hmmm not well informed,
1 if the ancient Macedonians were greeks, then? dissapear or slavoniazed?
little stupid? you say that must be smarter,
which smart can believe someone that say the old time the nation A is today nation B,
it is different to say that in ancient times Turkey was inhabited by greeks,
and different to say Greece is Turkey.
Now about embargo etc,
was done for 14 days and stoped,
we didnot want to start hostilities,
we believe in Freedom and not stupidity,
Beside look at it as it has,
A SERB IS SLAVIAN CAUSE HE IS SERB,
A SLOVAK IS SLAVIAN CAUSE HE IS SLOVAK,
A MAKEDONIAN IS A GREEK CAUSE HE IS MAKEDONIAN,
A PONTIAN GREEK IS GREEK CAUSE HE IS PONTIAN,

we are a nation that was shrunk and maybe today we still shrinking,
But still have sub-nationalities,
as you say the slavian Nations
Also is the Greek Nations,

the solution to let it be is not a good idea,

2 about the economic crisis in Greece is due to Humanism, and Stupidity,
every year millions of illegal immigrants enter Greece, cause of our laws and the face we look
it counted that from 2001 until today 8 000 000 pass borders,
today we feed free 2 000 000 islamic immigrants,
1 200 000 albanians enter, but due to neighborhood, we decide to give them lisence to work,
only the iraq people after USA invasion are 800 000 people,

we are at the top of criminallity,
BUT IF WE FAIL THE HALF BALKAN WILL FAIL,
cause greek corporation own the 28% of Bulgaria, and today other 300 are going to open there bussines
Greece own the 33% of FYrom Economy
Greece owns the 18 % of romania economy
Greece owns the 14 % of albania economy
Greece owns the 14 % of georgia-osetia economy,
imagine that if Greece collaps then Domino starts,

Besides the God Ares-Marsh never left from Aimos penninsula,
the theory after yugo-slavia Greece and then Romania and turkey is well known and we all know it,
but is it worthy?

soon oil wars will start,

greece-albania for Vlore oil,
Greece-turkey for aegean oil
turkey- cyprus - israel for cyprus oil -gas (very big ubder sea)
turkey bulgaria romania for dobritsa to kastamonu oil,
montenegro albania for gold silver tellurium, and the oil of elbasan area.until dalmatia,

why so much Army of UN for just human rights !!!!!
 
I'm sorry but the only thing that makes sense in iapetoc posts is his avatar.
 
Hahahaha you like Ερατοσθενης?

Eratosthenes
he and ΑΝΑΧΙΜΑΝΔΡΟΣ were my favorite,
besides i m bold

Eratosthenes' measurement of the earth's circumference


HE PROVED THAT PLANET EARTH IS A SPHERE

centuries before Copernicus
thank god they did not burn him in fire,

Lebrok elias2 understood,
Balkan was is and will be always a melting pot,
in balkan is a very interesting oil area, but deep very deep,
the time for corp to let it out has come,
also the richest area in world fro tellurium metal, think what happened in romania with acid warm water poluttion, and you will understand.
the same way there can't be 2 Popes of rome, the same way can't be 2 makedonia.
about makedonia vardarska or upper makedonia,,,
i dont know, politicians are on negotiations, lets see,
the only double name i personally accept is slavic Makedonia.
because the problem is not the place but the ethnicity, the nationality,
they have their place we have our space,
the nationality is the problem
but is not for me to decide,

Lebrok there is rumor that wants balkans to be 18 to 23 states,

everybody here that lives in balkan knows it,
elias2 must have heard,
 
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I'm not sure if you write the way hard to make sense of, or you are using google translate, or just ADHD?

Eratosthenes was a genius to admire. Though you should compare him to Columbus or Magellan who were trying to prove that Earth was round. Columbus, was lucky to discover America on way to India, or he would have died on his journey, lol.
Copernicus was other genius, who first proved mathematically that Earth is not in center of our solar system, but the Sun is. Some people believed it was like this, some Greeks too, but nobody could prove it before Copernicus.

Going back to Macedonia. The point is Greeks and Greek culture changed through millenia. You probably noticed that people in secluded villages in Greece look a bit different than Greeks in big cities, right? But Greeks want to be just Greeks, and not different name Greeks. Same with Macedonia. Their culture and people changed somewhat but they want to keep the same name. It's fair to all. Greeks are in Greece. Macedonian in Macedonia. Greeks and Macedonians changed in 3 thousand years of history.

Anyway, don't you want a good friend at northern border? It's you neighbour and it is very important to have good relationship with you neighbors. Just let them have Macedonia name. What's more important, a good friend or Macedonia name?
Have a good friend instead of a war for 9 letter word! What's more important?
 
LeBrok said:
I'm not sure if you write the way hard to make sense of, or you are using google translate, or just ADHD?

Eratosthenes was a genius to admire. Though you should compare him to Columbus or Magellan who were trying to prove that Earth was round. Columbus, was lucky to discover America on way to India, or he would have died on his journey, lol.
Copernicus was other genius, who first proved mathematically that Earth is not in center of our solar system, but the Sun is. Some people believed it was like this, some Greeks too, but nobody could prove it before Copernicus.

Going back to Macedonia. The point is Greeks and Greek culture changed through millenia. You probably noticed that people in secluded villages in Greece look a bit different than Greeks in big cities, right? But Greeks want to be just Greeks, and not different name Greeks. Same with Macedonia. Their culture and people changed somewhat but they want to keep the same name. It's fair to all. Greeks are in Greece. Macedonian in Macedonia. Greeks and Macedonians changed in 3 thousand years of history.

Anyway, don't you want a good friend at northern border? It's you neighbour and it is very important to have good relationship with you neighbors. Just let them have Macedonia name. What's more important, a good friend or Macedonia name?
Have a good friend instead of a war for 9 letter word! What's more important?
Click to expand...

Lebrok, it's not about the name, the 9 letters, its about territorial accusations based on said name by our northern neighbour. Just calling yourself macedonia monopolizes it and leads the way to claim land from Greece and Bulgaria. This is not Greek paranoia, they have rallies in skopje chanting "united Macedonia" as a slogan, and wave images in what they believe should be their country;

imgres




protest-pela.jpg



It might seem like the bigger guy is picking on the smaller guy, but its the other way around. For years Greece has been trying to come up with a compromise but insted they give the cold shoulder. So who is being the good neighbour here now? A neighbour that promotes propaganda against the neighbour to the south or the country that wants to find a peaceful solution with the neighbour to the north?

The atmosphere has only gotten worse since Kosovo was illegally stripped from serbia, totally ignoring serbias sovereign rights over its land by the big powers. Because of that event, it gave more steam to the "greater albania" and "greater Macedonia" movements, not to mention fuels the separation ambition of The Republic of Serbska from bosnia. Kosovo should never have happened, it was a bad example for the region. FYROM had a civil war in 1991 between the government and the albanian minority. They caught a van full of guns and ammo trying to come from kosovo into FYROM not to long ago by albanians and there was a firefight. If you had any brains, then you would guess this probably wasn't the first or the last van like this crossing the boarder into FYROM. You even have Hungary issueing passports freely now to its people living in neighbouring countries like Romania and slovakia making those governments very uneasy. These "greater Whatever" movements have to stop, if you support FYROM just having the name 'Macedonia' you arn't supporting peacefull negotiation in the region.
 
Peaceful solution about a name? I'm just talking about a name, not the territorial concerns. It's a big stretch from the name to land acquisition of other country.
 
LeBrok, its not a name,
ITS AN IDENTITY,
you lose an ID card, you get another,
YOU LOSE YOUR NAME, THEN ........
elias2 points correct,
Before we Had Yugoslavia, A BIG STATE full of many ethnicities, 6-7 NAtions,
look what happened,
Today we bosnia, WE DID NOT CHANGE BORDES!!!! so bosna today is also 2 Nations,
Today we have Kossyfopedio (kossovo-a) A Geografical state also 2 ethnocities,
that is the 'divide and conquer' rulling model,
Look where the British empire left,
British India, today pakistan, india, Bagladesh, kasmir, sri lanca etc
Look at Georgia at USSR time and today,
ossetia, Abhaz, rest georgia next to chechen,
if you let it be then it comes to your Head,
i have friends in skopje, also serbia, bulgaria, BUT
in Greece we say 'good deals, makes the good friends'
meaning that only clear acts and words and pay proves who is your good friend,

the fact is that for us they are what ever they like, except from us the Greek Makedonians,

but for them? No, we are also makedonians as they, but we must split from Greece and unite with them, ......!!!!!!!
HOW CAN THAT BE?
TO CREATE ANOTHER YUGOSLAVIA????? To Create a new imaginary History?
A new STATE with 4 nations? Greeks Albanians Bulgarians and Serbs!!!!
HOW THAT STATE WILL STAND?
In Bosna, Croatia, Serbia the Big problem was the religion, they have similar langauge,
Serbo-Croat, dialects of a bigger lingua,
But 1 is catholic 1 is muslim 1 is Orthodox, and they had wars,
in kossovo-a was bigger, religion and language and national.

how you can unite 3 religions 3 languages 3 nations in 1 state
only for satisfaction of Romans geographers
besides look at that,
Your family name is also 10-15 letters,
HOW WILL YOU FEEL WHEN SOMEONE FORCE YOU TO CHANGE IT?
WHAT YOUR ANCESTORS THINK ABOUT YOU???

that 9 letters its an Identification,

We are makedonians by blood and language,
they are makedonians cause they live in an area of an ex-Ottoman Makedonia province,

History never mentioned that Makedonians were Slavs, or they invated at 500 - 600 -800 AD.
only propaganda found that invasion,
So slavs want to create a nation in Balcans to prove what? that they were here before Serb and Bulgarian invasions? that they fight with Persian? hmmm thing about it, by having a slavian nation from ancient times simply you can claim the Peninsulla, and change History,

so who are they, they are slavs (serb -bulgars) that want to create a new nation,
they find proper to take the name after the (non owners) Turkish province of Makedonia
ok
BUT THEY MUST ADMIT IN THEIR CARTA OF INDΕPENDENCE (constitution),
THEY DON'T CLAIM AREA AND NATIONALITY OF GREEK MAKEDONIA
AND THEY ARE SLAVIANS,
That is why i personally accept the name makedonia only with the determination SLAVIAN

Lebrok if you lose your ID card then the thief can take your money, take loans from banks, drive your car, Travel with your name, etc
THINK WHAT WILL HAPPENED, if we admit to that you say,
1 we give up upon our ancestor lethal write,
then history will write that alexander was slavian who came from kurgan etc

BECIDES THE VIOLENT RAPE OF MAKEDONIAN HISTORY HAS STARTED,

LOOK AT MONUMENTS, THEY WRITE MAKEDON WITH K
LOOK AT THE STUPIDITY THAT FOLLOWS THAT YOU SAY I MUST ADMIT
THEY WRITE MACEDONIA WITH C

your Id card is 10-15 letters, why you don't give it away????

WE HAVE NOT LOST OUR IDENTITY CARD UNDER 400 OTTOMANS OCCUPATION
LOSE IT NOW????

Nations as Persons also Have ID Cards

LOOK At FIRST ORIGINAL ANCIENT MAKEDONIA

LocationMacedonia-MAC-3-z.png


LOOK AT ROMAN TIMES MAKEDONIA
LocationMacedonia-ROMAN-z.png


LOOK AT OTTOMAN MAKEDONIA

LocationMacedonia-OTT-2-z.png


IS IT THE SAME????

NO WAY,
NO NEED TO SATISFY THE OTTOMAN BY UNITE,
ITS SIMPLE THEY WANT TO TAKE THE NAME AFTER THE OTTOMANS PROVINCE, OK
BUT LET THEM MAKE CLEAR THAT THEY DON'T CLAIM LAND AND NATIONALITY

BUT I STILL WONDER WHY SO MUCH PASSION WTH MAKEDONIA NAME,
AND NOT PAEONIA,
WHICH IS GEOGRAPHICAL CORRECT AND FREE TO USE AND NON GREEK (other nation) AND ALSO ANCIENT AND WAS In HETAIROI Companion

Fyrom-ians ID is that
1) a part was the ancients Paeonians (thracian tribe) that slavonized allies of Makedonian Kingdom

2) a part of them was greek makedonians but slavonized

3) a part of them where Romans that dwell area

4) a part of them was serbians who lived or immigrate at the times of Stefan DUSAN of Serbia (capital Skopje)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Uro%C5%A1_IV_Du%C5%A1an_of_Serbia

5) a part of them was bulgarians who lived or immigrate at the times of Cymeon Of BULGARIA (Simeon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

6) a part of them are slavians that immigrate at Ottomans Times

7) a part of them were people that lived in Greek Makedonia at 1948 and change country to follow the Communist party, (a big child gathering by communist party was send to communist Yugoslavia just for political reasons)
'The removal of children from Greece to countries of the Socialist States was another highly emotive and contentious issue. "About thirty thousand children were forcefully taken by the DSE from territories they controlled to Eastern Bloc countries" as described '
Also rebels-soldiers from EL.L.A.S and N.O.F allies
the total immigrations is estimated 70 000 people to Yugoslavia and from them 45 000 to Fyrom
A total estimation of 150 -200 000 Greeks communist to all East Block countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_civil_war

a small part of ELAS (comunists) lives even today in the areas was given to them By east Block
another part returned back to Greece
a 3rd part changed nationality and recognize them selves as macedonians,
they mainly live in Australia, Fyrom, Serbia and other Diaspora areas,


Their common memories, other from ottoman, other from WW1, other from civil war,
as also the language they have, and the heroes they have, can surely bound them to a Nation
But it is different with the Greek Makedonian nation,
 
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