J2a-Z435 from BA collapse

[SUPREEEEEME]

It looks like the Mycenaean J-L70 is not from the Lazaridis Southern Arc paper. Is there another upcoming paper with this sample? Thanks.

I'm not too sure - either the sample was miscalled as J-L70 by the Reich lab originally, and as such they "corrected" it on release (miscall is possible, but no samples from the site were in the paper), or it could have been a low quality sample released in the 2017 Lazaridis paper that sampled the exact site where the sample was leaked to have come from, or lastly we may be getting more samples from the site in the future. Not sure which option is most likely.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

I'm not too sure - either the sample was miscalled as J-L70 by the Reich lab originally, and as such they "corrected" it on release (miscall is possible, but no samples from the site were in the paper), or it could have been a low quality sample released in the 2017 Lazaridis paper that sampled the exact site where the sample was leaked to have come from, or lastly we may be getting more samples from the site in the future. Not sure which option is most likely.

It’s nice to see more old samples turn up, like a below-L70 branch in southwest Anatolia in Byzantine/medieval times (same with an L70 found in southeast Anatolia). Southwest Anatolia has a number of old L24/L25/below samples, the oldest being from Hellenistic times. These are from the Southern Arc study.

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

It’s nice to see more old samples turn up, like a below-L70 branch in southwest Anatolia in Byzantine/medieval times (same with an L70 found in southeast Anatolia). Southwest Anatolia has a number of old L24/L25/below samples, the oldest being from Hellenistic times. These are from the Southern Arc study.

Indeed - although I was expecting to find more. The oldest L70's we have from this study are only Byzantine - given the rumored initial Myceneaen spread of L70, I was expecting a fair number of Hellenistic Anatolian L70 samples from Western Anatolia - however we found none. The oldest J-L25 sample from the study, which was from Hellenistic Halikarnassus, was Levantine. The supplemental data of the study proposed J-L70 coming to Anatolia and Europe from the East - but I guess we'll see.

 

[Michaelnigel]

Hi guys
My Ydna has recently confirmed to be J L70 -Z2177
My fathers line originated in Somerset South/SW England. I am wondering where it most likely came from?

Appreciate any input,

Todd

 

[Juan.delajara]

Hi guys
My Ydna has recently confirmed to be J L70 -Z2177
My fathers line originated in Somerset South/SW England. I am wondering where it most likely came from?
Appreciate any input,
Todd

Hi Todd. We've been discussing this matter for some years now. Probably JL70 was born somewhere between Anatolia and the Aegean. It is a well spread clade, specially on the Mediterranean with a relevant presence in Italy (including some ancient romans), specially on the southern part of the peninsula. Due to its expansion in Western Europe, probably arrived in places such as the UK, the Netherlands and Spain with romans. Of course is relevant to analyze its subclades, to have further details, J-Z2177 and J-PF5456 has a more relevant presence in the Northern Mediterranean and in western Europe so a path ANATOLIA (AEGEAN)-GREECE-ITALY-WESTERN EUROPE, is the most probable ancient path, although we still need more ancient samples to confirm this.

 

[Michaelnigel]

Thanks Juan,

I have done some additional reading, would you still agree with Maciamos statement on Eupedia that J L70 - Z435 including Z2177 would likely have been in a minority, among the founding lineages of ancient Rome and it's republic. Or is this opinion now obsolete ??

Todd,

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Thanks Juan,

I have done some additional reading, would you still agree with Maciamos statement on Eupedia that J L70 - Z435 including Z2177 would likely have been in a minority, among the founding lineages of ancient Rome and it's republic. Or is this opinion now obsolete ??

Todd,

I believe so. L70 was not found in Republican Rome. The earliest it turns up in the Roman world is the Imperial period, in Marche. Also, the autosomal profiles of some or most of the ancient samples show they were not indigenous but came from the people who temporarily shifted the Rome population eastward. It’s argued/demonstrated in multiple papers (ancient Rome transect, Roman Danubian frontier and Southern Arc) that almost all this ancestry came from Anatolia or has a profile that matches or is close to modern Cypriots/Dodecanese populations. Since L70 was apparently not part of an earlier Roman population, it will hopefully turn up at its source. The map of Roman Imperial cities below looks like from where this ancestry derived.

 

[Juan.delajara]

The Urbino (Marche) JL70 sample was labeled on the original archeological paper, as a late republican sample. He was buried on a rural roman context. According to archeologists after the analysis of the coins that were found on the tomb, he died on the 1st Century BCE (late Republic period). It was wrongly assigned to the Late antiquity period. From the supplementary material of the paper "T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation. The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st century BC."
His autosomal confirmed that he was a local, considered as a “rural plaebean”, so probably JL70 was there for at least some generations.
JL70 was probably born somewhere between Anatolia and the Aegean, hopefully the publication of the Myceanean JL70 from the Peloponnese will help us on clearing this matter. If it is confirmed, JL70 was probably present on the Eastern Mediterranean since Bronze age, so part of its subclades probably also moved on different periods of time from East to West and vice-versa.
Apart from the Urbino sample, the other older JL70’s samples were buried as romans, both of them. Regarding their autosomal DNA, one is clearly Eastern Mediterranean but the other one buried on a roman catacomb, under PF5456 shares common ancestors on greek southern Italy as well.
As soon as we will have a confirmation of the origin of JL70, we need to focus on its subclades, to understand when and where they moved on different places. The Finocchio et al. Paper published on Nature on 2018, analyzing ancient alleles stated that at least J-CTS3601 and Z2117, were part of the greek expansion on the Mediterranean, and specially to Magna Graecia.
So we need to confirm our hypothesis with more ancient samples. Regarding Todd's question I will answer him on a different post.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

The Urbino (Marche) JL70 sample was labeled on the original archeological paper, as a late republican sample. He was buried on a rural roman context. According to archeologists after the analysis of the coins that were found on the tomb, he died on the 1st Century BCE (late Republic period). It was wrongly assigned to the Late antiquity period. From the supplementary material of the paper "T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation. The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st century BC."
His autosomal confirmed that he was a local, considered as a “rural plaebean”, so probably JL70 was there for at least some generations.
JL70 was probably born somewhere between Anatolia and the Aegean, hopefully the publication of the Myceanean JL70 from the Peloponnese will help us on clearing this matter. If it is confirmed, JL70 was probably present on the Eastern Mediterranean since Bronze age, so part of its subclades probably also moved on different periods of time from East to West and vice-versa.
Apart from the Urbino sample, the other older JL70’s samples were buried as romans, both of them. Regarding their autosomal DNA, one is clearly Eastern Mediterranean but the other one buried on a roman catacomb, under PF5456 shares common ancestors on greek southern Italy as well.
As soon as we will have a confirmation of the origin of JL70, we need to focus on its subclades, to understand when and where they moved on different places. The Finocchio et al. Paper published on Nature on 2018, analyzing ancient alleles stated that at least J-CTS3601 and Z2117, were part of the greek expansion on the Mediterranean, and specially to Magna Graecia.
So we need to confirm our hypothesis with more ancient samples. Regarding Todd's question I will answer him on a different post.

I did read about the Marche sample being from earlier than the dates it was assigned. That was confusing. I looked for but couldn’t find its autosomal profile. If memory serves, the L70 sample from the ancient Rome transect paper (R136) plots somewhere between modern Cypriots, Greeks and South Italians or Sicilians. The one from Danubian frontier probably plots with/near modern Cypriots and Dodecanese.

 

[Juan.delajara]

I did read about the Marche sample being from earlier than the dates it was assigned. That was confusing. I looked for but couldn’t find its autosomal profile. If memory serves, the L70 sample from the ancient Rome transect paper (R136) plots somewhere between modern Cypriots, Greeks and South Italians or Sicilians. The one from Danubian frontier probably plots with/near modern Cypriots and Dodecanese.

Thanks for your comment RB. Indeed the Roman and Danubian Frontier are both, let' say "greek" in general, being one more "Eastern Greek" and the other more " Magna Graecian". Regarding the Admixture of the Urbino man, you can find it on the supplementary information of the paper, also "mytrueancestry.com" included it on their analysis and label it as: Gallo-Roman/Roman-Hispania (Spanish/North Italian).

 

[Juan.delajara]

Thanks Juan,
I have done some additional reading, would you still agree with Maciamos statement on Eupedia that J L70 - Z435 including Z2177 would likely have been in a minority, among the founding lineages of ancient Rome and it's republic. Or is this opinion now obsolete ??
Todd,

Regarding your question Todd, part of the answer is on my previous post.
So as a first comment I think JL70 arrived to Italy mostly with the greek colonies in Magna Graecia, as it was theorized by Andrea Finocchio et Al. on 2018, that’s why is so abundant in southern Italy today, so I would say that the Italic hypothesis is not well grounded now. Although I think part of JL70’s could have been roman citizens since early times, and that’s why they played a relevant role as part of the roman expansion in the italian península and ealsewhere, since republican times.
This statement could be related to the early Myceaneans/Aegean presence in Italy since Late Bronze age, among other interesting papers about this matter, you can read this study published on 2021: Italo-Mycenaean and other Aegean-influenced pottery in Late Bronze Age Italy: the case for regional production. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-020-01245-5 This could match with the old roman tradition that part of the founders families of the eternal city were Trojans ( Anatolian/Greek), but without ancient samples is imposible to know.
Regarding southern Italy I do think we have, more or less a clear picture, what we need to know is why JL70 is also common in the central part of the península in places like Lazio, Abruzzo and Marche, that had no relevant ancient greek presence, with the sole exception of Ancon (Ancona).
Maybe the early and deep influence of Cumae, in southern Lazio, also included some families that moved on early times to Rome and were part of the early roman society and/or the first roman colonists after the social wars, were mainly from the Magna Graecia cities loyal to Rome on the Punic Wars, that received early roman citizenship.
As I always said new ancient samples, hopefully, will help to understand more.