J2a/J2 in Iron Age Altais and Russia

A

Alan

Elite member
Messages
2,522
Reaction score
461
Points
83
Ethnic group
Kurdish
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1a1a1
mtDNA haplogroup
HV2a1 +G13708A
J2a in Iron Age Altais and Russia

More informations

With some further investigating and team work it has been determined that the haplogroup J2a sample from Iron Age Altai belongs to the LM410 subclade. Some further digging and reading also revealed that this sample is labelled RISE602 in the RISE project and was discovered in the Sary-Bel kurgan. It has been dated to Iron Age (900/700 BC-AD 500/1000 ) and a rough translation from a Russian site has this to say about this burial site. ''So Sarah burial cemetery date back to the beginning of Bel-Hun-Sarmatian time and,
may belong to the people, which penetrated into the Altai Mountains to the southeast".

The Bulan-Kobin culture evolved out of the Pazyryk culture which was Scythian. So there seems like there is a good chance then that this J2a-L24 male may have belonged to the Bulan-Kobin culture which had its origins in the earlier Pazyryk culture.
Click to expand...

Apparently the other J2 sample from Iron Age Russia actually also comes from Altai. It comes from a site called Kytmanovo. So this is now two J2 samples from Iron Age Altai. This is getting very interesting. Perhaps it was J2/J2a men that introduced iron technology to this part of the world.
Click to expand...


I said it sooo many times now it is finally proven. J2a beside R1 and R2 and some G, LT is one of the main Haplogroups of the ancient Indo_Iranians.

A person just needs to look at the overall distribution of Haplogroups among modern Indo_Iranian speakers. J2a is among the most frequent Haplogroups in ALL Indo_Iranian speakers.

And now my words are final confirmed. Even though oN Eurogenes some people still "doubt it".
 
Last edited:
So we have J2a in Bronze Age Hungary in connection to ANE signals. Now 2xJ2a in Iron Age (900 BC to 700 AD) in Kurgans of Siberia.
 
the J2a in Bronze Age Hungary was J2a1-M67

now we have 2 x J2a2 SK1403 : check this http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/
 
bicicleur said:
the J2a in Bronze Age Hungary was J2a1-M67

now we have 2 x J2a2 SK1403 : check this http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/
Click to expand...

It is a lineage found in Punjabis and other Central Asians too.

One of the J2a2 is from around 900 BC, too early for any Turkic group and as the article states from the Saka_Scythian epoch. The other 700 AD is the transtion period from Iranic to Turkic in Altais.
Good to see Uygurs having this Haplogroup too. Confirms it Indo_Iranian (maybe even Tocharian) origin imo.
 
check the link in my previous post and also the tree in this link
the Punjabis are not SK1403, they are not even L581, they split on top of the tree
and the oldest is 50 BC, not 900 BC
 
bicicleur said:
check the link in my previous post and also the tree in this link
the Punjabis are not SK1403, they are not even L581, they split on top of the tree
and the oldest is 50 BC, not 900 BC
Click to expand...



50BC is still Scythian epoch, so where is the issue?


Also Bronze Age J2a being of different subclade than the J2a in the Iron Age Altais isn't so important, for the point that J2a appears in Bronze and Iron Age context, anyways.

We have various R1a and R1b subclades so why all the fuss about J2a in Hungary being slightly different than J2a in Altais?
 
Rus J2a Altai J2a Armenian J2b

11537584_910187692371926_7574298768341963189_o.jpg


11537584_910187692371926_7574298768341963189_o.jpg

11536487_913256082065087_8366782688745716682_o.jpg


Source: The Frozen Tombs of the Altai Mountains Phase I 2005-2006 http://www.archaeology.ugent.be/file/9

http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a2

 
BakodiP said:
Where did they get the Armenian samples? What's the difference between irArm and baArm? Approx how many J2b Armenians are we speaking about in this study?
Click to expand...

The J2a IrRus (iron age rusia) is from Kytmanovo, the J2a IrAltai (iron age altai) is from Sary-Bel, and the J2b IrArm (iron age Armenia) is from Norabak. Irarm is iron age armenian and ba is bronze age armenian.

Kytmanovo: 53.449727, 85.427022 or 53°26'59.0"N 85°25'37.3"E
Sary-bel: 50.615, 86.459 or 50°36'54.0"N 86°27'32.4"E

Origin of the Indo-Iranians
https://books.google.nl/books?id=x5...ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kytmanovo&f=false

11425438_913366275387401_437194434559447671_n.jpg
 
Last edited:
Alan said:
It is a lineage found in Punjabis and other Central Asians too.

One of the J2a2 is from around 900 BC, too early for any Turkic group and as the article states from the Saka_Scythian epoch. The other 700 AD is the transtion period from Iranic to Turkic in Altais.
Good to see Uygurs having this Haplogroup too. Confirms it Indo_Iranian (maybe even Tocharian) origin imo.
Click to expand...
these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people based on Gedmatch results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#Central_Asia
 
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Country/Region[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Sampling[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]N[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J-M172[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Study[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Afghanistan[/TD]
[TD]Hazara[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]26.6[/TD]
[TD]Haber 2012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Afghanistan[/TD]
[TD]Uzbeks[/TD]
[TD]126[/TD]
[TD]16.0[/TD]
[TD]Di Cristofaro 2013[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Turkestan, China[/TD]
[TD]Uyghurs[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]34.0[/TD]
[TD]Shou 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Turkestan, China[/TD]
[TD]Uzbeks[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]30.4[/TD]
[TD]Shou 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Turkestan, China[/TD]
[TD]Tajiks[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]16.1[/TD]
[TD]Shou 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kazakhstan[/TD]
[TD]Kazakhs[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]13.3[/TD]
[TD]Karafet 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tajikistan[/TD]
[TD]Yaghnobis[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]32.0[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tajikistan[/TD]
[TD]Tajiks[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]18.4[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turkmenistan[/TD]
[TD]Turkmens[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]17.0[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uzbekistan[/TD]
[TD]Uzbeks[/TD]
[TD]366[/TD]
[TD]13.4[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Alpakut said:
these ancient J2a samples seem to be more related to present-day Turkic people based on Gedmatch results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172#Central_Asia
Click to expand...
J2a being undoubtley a West Eurasian lineage makes it pretty obvious that this is one of those Haplogroups which late Iron Age Turkic groups inherited from their Iranic speaking part of ancestors.

Therefore it is an Iranic +Turkic Haplogroup. As seen on the table you provided.


Alpakut said:
[TABLE="class: wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Country/Region[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Sampling[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]N[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]J-M172[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Study[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Afghanistan[/TD]
[TD]Hazara[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]26.6[/TD]
[TD]Haber 2012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Afghanistan[/TD]
[TD]Uzbeks[/TD]
[TD]126[/TD]
[TD]16.0[/TD]
[TD]Di Cristofaro 2013[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Turkestan, China[/TD]
[TD]Uyghurs[/TD]
[TD]50[/TD]
[TD]34.0[/TD]
[TD]Shou 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Turkestan, China[/TD]
[TD]Uzbeks[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]30.4[/TD]
[TD]Shou 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Turkestan, China[/TD]
[TD]Tajiks[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]16.1[/TD]
[TD]Shou 2010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kazakhstan[/TD]
[TD]Kazakhs[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]13.3[/TD]
[TD]Karafet 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tajikistan[/TD]
[TD]Yaghnobis[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]32.0[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tajikistan[/TD]
[TD]Tajiks[/TD]
[TD]38[/TD]
[TD]18.4[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turkmenistan[/TD]
[TD]Turkmens[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]17.0[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Uzbekistan[/TD]
[TD]Uzbeks[/TD]
[TD]366[/TD]
[TD]13.4[/TD]
[TD]Wells 2001[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
When I look at these tables and the Y-DNA tree, I am confused. Can someone please explain to me if the J2-M67 is related to the J2 located in Altay?


If yes, how is it different from the Armenian example?


Is M67 closer to the Armenian or Altai example?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top