Identifying the Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient Roman families through their descendants

[Angela]

Roman emperors have a grave? Their Y DNA is detected in the graves?

No, they don't. It's impossible to know.

Odds are, imo, they were R1b U-152 of some kind.

 

[leperrine]

That's because J2a was not one of the original Indo-European haplogroup in the founding Italic population of the ancient Romans. J2a was presumably assimilated from neighbouring Etruscan and Greek populations. By the time the Romans conquered Gaul and Britain there would have been many J2a men among the Romans (be them legionaries, administrators or merchants).

Maciamo, do you have plans to update your descriptions on J2 L70 based on this statement?

 

[Pax Augusta]

Maciamo, do you have plans to update your descriptions on J2 L70 based on this statement?

Studies of ancient DNA have increased in recent years, J2a has been found in the Neolithic samples in Italy, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, if I remember correctly.

 

[Luciano Oliveira]

Hi!
I'm R-U152> Z193> FT8517
I think my Y-Dna is related to the Romans who went to Portugal.
Are there any genetic studies on the Romans in Portugal? Thanks !!

[FONT=&quot]Thanks[/FONT]

 

[Emal]

we must keep in mind that the Latin names were also given to the many orphans for example the surname Cicero clearly has this origin

 

[kingdavid]

No, they don't. It's impossible to know.

Odds are, imo, they were R1b U-152 of some kind.

Agree they could also so be some branches
Of G and j2 though....

P.s
Most of the eastern roman emperors were likely mix of i2 and
E-v13 as some of them can trace there paternal line to moesia

 

[Angela]

Agree they could also so be some branches
Of G and j2 though....
P.s
Most of the eastern roman emperors were likely mix of i2 and
E-v13 as some of them can trace there paternal line to moesia

You're right; I was thinking only of the early emperors, the ones from Italy and Italic colonies.

 

[Pax Augusta]

R1b-U152>Z56>Z145>CTS6389

• Cecchinelli (surname found in Latium, Tuscany, Liguria and Lombardy) => possibly from Caecinus, an Etruscan gens. The Latin 'Cae' invariably becomes 'Ce' in Italian. The Latin 'ci' becomes 'chi' in Italian to keep the hard k sound. That gives the root 'Caecin' => 'Cecchin' + the '-elli' ending.

Cecchinelli is from Cecchinello diminutive of Cecco, from Francesco. There are many variants of this surname in Italy, Cecchi, Cecchini, Ceccuzzi, Ceccarelli and so on.

 

[Mario]

A little bit curious about the DF90 ancient latin sample(800-500BC),seems that German Roman Empire Kaiser House of Habsburg is under DF90 too. Does this branch actually origin from latin roman, or german or celts?From the existing samples,seems have lower possibility from Sweden or north Germany (local celts most probably).U152 is harder to identify than R1b-Z2118，R1b-Z2118 has strong link with latin roman,maybe the real Latin language contributor.

 

[Maciamo]

A little bit curious about the DF90 ancient latin sample(800-500BC),seems that German Roman Empire Kaiser House of Habsburg is under DF90 too. Does this branch actually origin from latin roman, or german or celts?From the existing samples,seems have lower possibility from Sweden or north Germany (local celts most probably).U152 is harder to identify than R1b-Z2118，R1b-Z2118 has strong link with latin roman,maybe the real Latin language contributor.

I was wondering the same thing. Considering that the Romans did station lots of legions for 400 years along the border with Germania and that northern Switzerland where the Habsburg originated is in that area, I think that the Habsburg Y-DNA line may well be of Roman/Italian origin.

In addition to being found in Italy, France, Switzerland, southern Germany and England (locations which could be either Celtic or Italic/Roman origin), R1b-U152>L2>DF90 is also found in Algeria and Turkey, two locations that rather point at a Roman dispersal. Anyway it was found in Iron Age Latium, so that is uncontrovertible evidence that it was Roman. The question is whether is was also Celtic, or only Roman/Italic.

 

[Joey37]

Uh, just so we're on the right page here, the modern Habsburg line is not descended in male line from the Swiss founder. Starting with Joseph II, the modern male-line Habsburg lineage is that of the French House of Lorraine, as Joseph's father was Francis Stephen, Duke of Lorraine. The earliest recorded ancestor of that line was Gerard of Metz, with an origin in northeastern France.

 

[Maciamo]

Uh, just so we're on the right page here, the modern Habsburg line is not descended in male line from the Swiss founder. Starting with Joseph II, the modern male-line Habsburg lineage is that of the French House of Lorraine, as Joseph's father was Francis Stephen, Duke of Lorraine. The earliest recorded ancestor of that line was Gerard of Metz, with an origin in northeastern France.

That's right, but it is the original Habsburg line that is R1b-L2>DF90, not the Lorraine line. According to this page, two living members of the Habsburg-Lorraine line tested their Y-DNA, but one was G2a and the other J2.

 

[kmak]

That's right, but it is the original Habsburg line that is R1b-L2>DF90, not the Lorraine line. According to this page, two living members of the Habsburg-Lorraine line tested their Y-DNA, but one was G2a and the other J2.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28880-Possible-Habsburg-Y-DNA-haplogroup

''The only member of the Habsburg Project related to the Habsburg-Lorraine is also the only one with a slightly different haplotype, though he also belongs to R1b-U152. That, on the other hand, would be highly unlikely for the Carolingians if they were indeed of patrilineal Germanic descent. It is not impossible though. The first documented Carolingian was Pepin of Landen, born in 580, many centuries after the Franks settled in modern Belgium. It cannot be ruled out that Pepin was paternally descended from an assimilated Gallo-Roman rather than a German.''

 

[torzio]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28880-Possible-Habsburg-Y-DNA-haplogroup

''The only member of the Habsburg Project related to the Habsburg-Lorraine is also the only one with a slightly different haplotype, though he also belongs to R1b-U152. That, on the other hand, would be highly unlikely for the Carolingians if they were indeed of patrilineal Germanic descent. It is not impossible though. The first documented Carolingian was Pepin of Landen, born in 580, many centuries after the Franks settled in modern Belgium. It cannot be ruled out that Pepin was paternally descended from an assimilated Gallo-Roman rather than a German.''

IIRC he was a Salian-Frank and they fall into ydna R-U106, L48, Z8, Z1+

Maybe the Ottonian-Franks where different ................https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_dynasty

 

[Pax Augusta]

J2a-L26>Z438>L70>Z435
[/B]

• Caruso (common surname, sample from Calabria) => maybe from Carus?

Here are two other related branches of Z438, also common in Italy.

Caruso means "boy" in the far southern Italian languages (Sicilian, Calabrian...).

[propr. carusu, originally "shorn": perhaps Lat. cariosus "carious," later "smooth, bald"]

 

[GRDTobin]

FitzRandolph and Randoll

This Y-DNA is present in at least one modern lineage:

R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > Z144 > BY28794 > PF6582 > PF6577 > FGC36902/BY3953 > FGC36897 > FGC36895 > A8380 > FGC41936

The families that have this (FitzRandolph and Randoll) are genealogically male-line descendants of Count Eudon Penteur (c999-1079), de facto Duke of Brittany from 1040 to 1057.

FGC41936 is estimated to be a 12th century mutation of A8380, which we would therefore expect to be Eudon's Y-DNA.

Eudons' children, the Eudonids, claimed descent from the Roman families Rutilius Rufus and Aurelius Cotta, specifically Rutilia, mother of Aurelia, mother of the dictator Gaius Julius Caesar.

Gildas's war-orphan hero Ambrosius Aurelianus's surname indicates that he was born an Aurelius but adopted into another (unnamed) family, just as Gaius Octavius was adopted by Julius Caesar and became Octavianus.

Some Aurelii were in Britain in the 200s as evidenced by the gravestone found at Carlisle of Aurelia Aureliana, wife of Ulpius Apolinaris.

That is particularly interesting as we know from a letter of Sidonius Apollinaris, dated before 470, that one of his friends was 'Riothamus', leader of the Romano-Britons in either Britain or Gaul or both.

Riothamus is a Latinised Brythonic title, probably meaning high king. It has been speculated that Riothamus is the same person as Ambrosius Aurelianus as they were contemporaries, performed similar roles, and both are described as exceedingly modest.

It is conceivable that Sidonius and Riothamus may have been related, through that 3rd century married couple who lived near the western extremity of Hadrian's Wall.

The Aurelii were a prolific family. Many Consuls and Emperors were Aurelii by ancient descent or by adoption. So it is not improbable for branches of the Aurelii to have descendants, even some male-line descendants, today.

The claim by the Eudonids of descent from the Aurelii is rendered plausible by their living male-line descendants' possession of ancient central Italian Y-DNA.

Had they fabricated any section of their long medieval or modern pedigree, or if non-paternal events occurred, it would be most likely for them to be R1b-L21, R1b-U106, I1 or I2, like the people who surrounded them during the many centuries they resided in Brittany, Normandy and England.

 

[Davidtab]

Hello Maciamo, about this issue. I am J2b2 L283 CTS3617 BY162321 related by Y haplogroup to ancient DNA in Dalmatia 1550ybp (id:I4331). My surname is Taboada, and the origin of this galician surname is related to an ancient noble family called Taboada; the origin of Taboada family is another very ancient noble family called Camba. The Camba family, according with the legendary nobiliar memorials has its origin in a roman consul called Lucio Cambero, who was the founder of Castro Candaz, an ancient castle in Lugo (Galicia). This castle controlled trading along the Mi?o River. The legend says Lucio Cambero was related to "galician mountaineers" and fought against Trajano Emperator with them, when Lucio Cambero and his "galician mountaineers" were defeated, he came back to Castro Candaz and stayed there. This is clearly a legend but it could hide some truth about the far origins of the Camba family related to Roman militaria, as I suppose my Y haplogroup marker should be related to Roman militaria.

 

[Twilight]

This Y-DNA is present in at least one modern lineage:

R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > Z144 > BY28794 > PF6582 > PF6577 > FGC36902/BY3953 > FGC36897 > FGC36895 > A8380 > FGC41936

The families that have this (FitzRandolph and Randoll) are genealogically male-line descendants of Count Eudon Penteur (c999-1079), de facto Duke of Brittany from 1040 to 1057.

FGC41936 is estimated to be a 12th century mutation of A8380, which we would therefore expect to be Eudon's Y-DNA.

Eudons' children, the Eudonids, claimed descent from the Roman families Rutilius Rufus and Aurelius Cotta, specifically Rutilia, mother of Aurelia, mother of the dictator Gaius Julius Caesar.

Gildas's war-orphan hero Ambrosius Aurelianus's surname indicates that he was born an Aurelius but adopted into another (unnamed) family, just as Gaius Octavius was adopted by Julius Caesar and became Octavianus.

Some Aurelii were in Britain in the 200s as evidenced by the gravestone found at Carlisle of Aurelia Aureliana, wife of Ulpius Apolinaris.

That is particularly interesting as we know from a letter of Sidonius Apollinaris, dated before 470, that one of his friends was 'Riothamus', leader of the Romano-Britons in either Britain or Gaul or both.

Riothamus is a Latinised Brythonic title, probably meaning high king. It has been speculated that Riothamus is the same person as Ambrosius Aurelianus as they were contemporaries, performed similar roles, and both are described as exceedingly modest.

It is conceivable that Sidonius and Riothamus may have been related, through that 3rd century married couple who lived near the western extremity of Hadrian's Wall.

The Aurelii were a prolific family. Many Consuls and Emperors were Aurelii by ancient descent or by adoption. So it is not improbable for branches of the Aurelii to have descendants, even some male-line descendants, today.

The claim by the Eudonids of descent from the Aurelii is rendered plausible by their living male-line descendants' possession of ancient central Italian Y-DNA.

Had they fabricated any section of their long medieval or modern pedigree, or if non-paternal events occurred, it would be most likely for them to be R1b-L21, R1b-U106, I1 or I2, like the people who surrounded them during the many centuries they resided in Brittany, Normandy and England.

How old is Ydna R-A8380? It appears that my Haplogroup R-BY97456 is also a child of R1B-BY3957. It?s interesting that you list the Haplogroup as connected to a famous Roman.
[TABLE="class: GridMaster, width: 1"]
[TR="class: AspNet-GridView-Normal"]
[TD="class: LeftAlign"]R-BY97456[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: GridMaster, width: 1"]
[TR="class: AspNet-GridView-Normal"]
[TD="class: LeftAlign"]R-BY97456[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Twilight]

This Y-DNA is present in at least one modern lineage:

R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > Z144 > BY28794 > PF6582 > PF6577 > FGC36902/BY3953 > FGC36897 > FGC36895 > A8380 > FGC41936

The families that have this (FitzRandolph and Randoll) are genealogically male-line descendants of Count Eudon Penteur (c999-1079), de facto Duke of Brittany from 1040 to 1057.

FGC41936 is estimated to be a 12th century mutation of A8380, which we would therefore expect to be Eudon's Y-DNA.

Eudons' children, the Eudonids, claimed descent from the Roman families Rutilius Rufus and Aurelius Cotta, specifically Rutilia, mother of Aurelia, mother of the dictator Gaius Julius Caesar.

Gildas's war-orphan hero Ambrosius Aurelianus's surname indicates that he was born an Aurelius but adopted into another (unnamed) family, just as Gaius Octavius was adopted by Julius Caesar and became Octavianus.

Some Aurelii were in Britain in the 200s as evidenced by the gravestone found at Carlisle of Aurelia Aureliana, wife of Ulpius Apolinaris.

That is particularly interesting as we know from a letter of Sidonius Apollinaris, dated before 470, that one of his friends was 'Riothamus', leader of the Romano-Britons in either Britain or Gaul or both.

Riothamus is a Latinised Brythonic title, probably meaning high king. It has been speculated that Riothamus is the same person as Ambrosius Aurelianus as they were contemporaries, performed similar roles, and both are described as exceedingly modest.

It is conceivable that Sidonius and Riothamus may have been related, through that 3rd century married couple who lived near the western extremity of Hadrian's Wall.

The Aurelii were a prolific family. Many Consuls and Emperors were Aurelii by ancient descent or by adoption. So it is not improbable for branches of the Aurelii to have descendants, even some male-line descendants, today.

The claim by the Eudonids of descent from the Aurelii is rendered plausible by their living male-line descendants' possession of ancient central Italian Y-DNA.

Had they fabricated any section of their long medieval or modern pedigree, or if non-paternal events occurred, it would be most likely for them to be R1b-L21, R1b-U106, I1 or I2, like the people who surrounded them during the many centuries they resided in Brittany, Normandy and England.

I?d be careful about placing high regards on royal legends; much more do ancestors living in the Iron Age/Middle Ages. Before Paternity tests were invented, it was not uncommon for a wife to get pregnant with someone other than her spouse. Ancestry Thrulines does do a bang up job in detecting Adultry but they can only detect as far back as your 6th Great Grandparents.


However, our closest ancient dna samples were 2 folks whom lived in Roma with the R-BY17346 subclade; one lived between (550 BC-150 BC) and another sample lived between (450 AD-650 AD); (Check my yfull link below in the Sources) .
The common ancestor; R1B-Z56-BY1823 lived roughly in 900 BC, this strongly suggests that our BY3957 Haplogroup descends from a man whom took part and lived in the Villanova Culture.

Italics & Romans

The Bronze Age was brought to Europe by the Proto-Indo-Europeans, who migrated from the North Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe to the Balkans (from circa 6,000 years ago), then went up the Danube and invaded Central and Western Europe (from 4,500 years ago). Italic-speakers, an Indo-European branch, are thought to have crossed the Alps and invaded the Italian peninsula around 3,200 years ago, establishing the Villanova culture and bringing with them primarily R1b-U152 lineages and replacing or displacing a large part of the indigenous people. The Neolithic inhabitants of Italy sought refuge in the Apeninne mountains and in Sardinia. Nowadays, the highest concentration of haplogroup G2a and J1 outside the Middle East are found in the Apeninnes, Calabria, Sicily and Sardinia.Source:https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#bronze_iron_age

It appears that the closest Italian relatives from YDNA BY3965 is A14978; both subclades are immediate children of R1B-U152-Z56-FGC36903. There is only one; maybe 2 families whom tested positive for the A14978 subclade; one family Immigrated to South America from their native lands of Ancient Lucania, Italy a century ago. The Lucanians were an Italic tribe. Another A14978 family is from Brandenburg Province, Germany.


R1B-FCG36903 evolved between 868 BC-2 BC and FCG36903>A14978 formed almost immediately after.
FGC36903>BY3965 evolved later between 342-878 AD and is found exclusively in the British Isles so far.


R-BY187690 broke off from FGC36903 between 303-1053 AD to join the Jewish community in West Slavic and East Slavic countries.
As seen through this link.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/jewishr1b/default.aspx?section=ycolorized




Source


https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY3965/story


https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-A14978/story


https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY187690/story


https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY1823/story


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY1823/

 

[MOESAN]

Linking modern surnames to surnames of male ancestors of the antiquity so of same Y-haplogroup lineage is of very hazardous rentability. It's true that in past (unique personal name) fathers passed often their name to first sons. But it didn't concern the whole male descendants, so that todate a very small quantity could reflect ancient names, phonetic evolution or not, even more because in the hereditary surname system ( about XV°Cy) the family surname is fixed for all descendants at the contrary to the ancient personal name system.
and we have to be cautious when seeing links; BI, Coelho was Conelho before, look at Conejo, Conilh...