Iberian Neolithic M269?

None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used....
 
So R1b M269 was already in Iberia in Neolithic?
Also i am confused that in "Yamnaya" until now is only found the eastern branch of R1b-Z103.
 
@Olympus Mons

That is to say that all the tests collected to verify this phenomenon of massive invasion of the steppe, are non-objective tests and chosen on purpose to accommodate them to a previously conceived theory?

I do not think it was like that


If it is true that apart from these comments that in iberia were only tested neolithic and not true campaniformes, also in France it is observed that the few tests they perform are very close to Germany.
 
@Olympus Mons
None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used.... "
:
Possible indeed but are you so sure?To try to reconciliate all these contradictions, we can imagine a first borderline pop initiating the BB cultural phenomenon in CSW Portugal SW Spain, and becoming accepted by a certain Chalco elite, creating kind of a (religious) mode accaparated later by this Chalco elite and spred around by it in other places (BTW let's keep in mind the BB phenomenon, even in it strongest phase, did not cover all the territories where it dived its places) - an elite with power and controle of commercial "highways" could have boosted the circulation of this new (religious) mode ? Hypothesis...
THat said, an eastern origin (East carpathians) cannot be excluded, and first Y-R1b not more - but I regret we have not more serious samples for supposed Iberian BB's, as you.
 
MOESAN said:
@Olympus Mons
None of the portuguese samples were bell beakers. They were in the region but bell beakers people were not thrown into caves like the samples they used.... "
:
Possible indeed but are you so sure?To try to reconciliate all these contradictions, we can imagine a first borderline pop initiating the BB cultural phenomenon in CSW Portugal SW Spain, and becoming accepted by a certain Chalco elite, creating kind of a (religious) mode accaparated later by this Chalco elite and spred around by it in other places (BTW let's keep in mind the BB phenomenon, even in it strongest phase, did not cover all the territories where it dived its places) - an elite with power and controle of commercial "highways" could have boosted the circulation of this new (religious) mode ? Hypothesis...
THat said, an eastern origin (East carpathians) cannot be excluded, and first Y-R1b not more - but I regret we have not more serious samples for supposed Iberian BB's, as you.
Click to expand...

This conundrum does not have a solution anymore.
Once Martiniano and Olalde published what they did, even though they make some warnings about samples, but after what they published…. Its over at least for a while. No point in arguing against.
See, its not easy to fix the Portuguese bell beakers problem now. Remember.
a. Oldest BB ever, ever, was the one in Hut FM (or Hut3) at the doorsteps of the leceia fortress. We have stratigraphy that show that for hundreds of years, generation after generation, the Hut FM were bell beakers and the hut 300 meters away never went to bell beaker. Different pottery. And they lived in the same 500 meters for centuries. So, different people that did not mix! .
b. To figure who bell beakers were, one would need to sample either Zambujal or VNSP. Who were the people that made fine “copos” (beakers), that were just one steppe away from bell shape…
c. Martiniano and olalde are comparing proper bell beakers, buried in individual graves with all the traits of a proper bell beaker, with Portuguese late neolithic people thrown at caves? Does it strike you as serious?
d. Perdigoes in the south Portugal is treasure trove. So, some proper Bell beakers there…. But, but, are late 3rd milenia. Those samples are being collected for adna …. But see, whatever comes out will be read as, oh, the eastern bell beakers arrived…. And if they do not exhibit large amounts of steppe, is just generation admix with locals that diluted it.

So, unless its tested proper Bell beakers in Portugal and later proper burial in Galicia, and so forth we will never know. Because even the Spanish meseta central bell beakers are later, and later who knows, van already be admix with central euope people coming back, something we know they did at some point.
And unless the 1300 years of Perdigoes burials brings a surprise (like pure 3000bc as r1b) we will never get to the bottom of it.

Note: seems VNSP land owner (the daughter) has came to an agreement with authorities (150 euros a month…..WTF!!) so, archeologists are going to be back to dig some more after 40 years. Lets see what they get. First survey showed it was much bigger.
 
ROS said:
@Olympus Mons

That is to say that all the tests collected to verify this phenomenon of massive invasion of the steppe, are non-objective tests and chosen on purpose to accommodate them to a previously conceived theory?
I do not think it was like that

If it is true that apart from these comments that in iberia were only tested neolithic and not true campaniformes, also in France it is observed that the few tests they perform are very close to Germany.
Click to expand...

Ros,
the world is not made of conspirators, is made of self interest.
Samples were chosen due to the probability of yielding good DNA. So, the colder and dampest the better. And yes, coldest and dampest does fall perfectly on their believes.

Having said that…. Everybody, everybody knows for decades that the Bell beakers had a huge exchange with Cwc in that region and that they were the ones moving to northern Europe and Netherland, Denmark ( and UK). Since Nmdental traits done on bell beakers, everybody knew they were the half breeds and that there was something kinky with exogamy between Bell beakers males and CWC women (ok and the other way around). That is not part of the paper (olalde) narrative, is it?

So, if they (and not saying they were) were original Iberians BB with 5 generations per century of local admix, after 15 generations when they admix with CWC, how do you think they would look like?
 
wait and see but I'm as hungry as you for more serious data in Iberia; the first ones are the ones who interests me...
 
bicicleur said:
it is early Iberian chalcolithic
these people came clearly from elsewhere
but where?
Click to expand...

"The Zagros farmers domesticated goats as well as cereals such as emmer, whereas their counterparts to the west had their own crops, including barley and wheat. Around 9,500 years ago, these traditions began spreading around the Middle East, Rogers says, noting that the two populations of farmers may have mixed in eastern Turkey while seeking out sources of obsidian, which was useful for making tools. By the time farmers in present-day Turkey began migrating to Europe, they carried a 'Neolithic toolkit' that included crops, animals and tools from both farming traditions."

-- "Farming invented twice in Middle East, genomes study reveals", Nature, June 20, 2016 ("Google" - can't post links yet).

Zagros farmers were R1b. Source of Yamnaya R1b? Was M269 originally from NW Iran, then spread with Neolithic expansion? R1b also found in Cyprus and Crete. Did they island hop?
 
"Zagros farmers were R1b."
@CrazyDonkey

for me Zagros mountains open on the Mesopotamian region and are not too open to Central Asia. I think personally that if Y-R1b was South the Caucasus before to be North the Pont, it would have arrived from East along the South-Caspian shores regions. But it is still an hypothesis. Don't forget R1b ancestors were before surely around Penjab or South Central Asia... and the plain would have been more attractive than the Zagros mountains, except if they were only poor caprins and ovins pastors, what is not so sure, if they began the IE boosters...
 
The sample from Portugal is H2, as Genetiker said, because its calls lead to H2 without holes... the call on M269 seems lonely put in the pot, sort of false positive.
 
R1b M269 is an old stage of R1b; without downstream SNP's it doesn't help too much,I think. If we should find huge amouts of M269 it could signify something but to date? some little groups of M269 and/or close SNP's in the tree could have taken a lot of roads on every direction with very different autosomes makings, due to the fact they were small groups.
 
If we see hg G and J2's route in settling in Europe they toke the southern highway and danube river route so maybe m269 too toke several routes, so now the question should be which group which route resulted in their successful colonization? of course the more ancient the better!
 
Brennos said:
The sample from Portugal is H2, as Genetiker said, because its calls lead to H2 without holes... the call on M269 seems lonely put in the pot, sort of false positive.
Click to expand...
Yes.
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]Click
document-icon.png
to view original post in dataset or 'Obejct ID - Location' to show object on the map.[/TH]
[TH]Y-DNA[/TH]
[TH]mtDNA[/TH]
[TH]Mean Age (ybp)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] MC337A - Monte Canelas[/TD]
[TD]H-P96 (H2)[/TD]
[TD]5057[/TD]
[TD]Portugal - SW Iberia Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


So there is no finding in Portugal with haplogroup R1b from that time, correct?
 
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