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I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

Kingslav said:
I agree with your opinion I2A-DIN has Thracian/Dacian origins with a fraction of these ancestors migrating and populating the west Balkans (Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, etc) during medieval period. As far the language goes it is tricky in this part of world, I will give you personal example. My grandfather was born in Bukovina, Northern Romania when this region belonged to Austro-Hungary prior to second world war, my family has deep roots in this region known as Carpatho-Rus, however his father my great grandfather was of Bulgar descent. My grandfather married into Polish family and after WW2 relocated to southern Poland and for this reason I was born citizen of Poland, adopted the language, culture, Roman Catholicism religion. In Poland less than 5-10% people carry I2A-DIN mostly this is settlers from Carpatho-Rus. The 42.6% Slavic genes in Romania certainly still exists there despite the Romanian language, but over time through mixing of genetics new phenotypes and subraces are created.
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Sorry that your family had to relocate...
It took around 1000 years for the Romanian language to form, and more Slavic DNA implies more Slavic people mixing with Romanians, which in result more Slavic influence in the Romanian language... Romanian language got about 20% Slavic influence.... is it a coincidence that it has in average 20% R1a? Maybe... or maybe not...
Have you thought that maybe your great grandfather had his I2a-din yDNA from Thracian descent? It's a possibility...
 
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Dumidre said:
Your example has valid points, but explains a short period of time. However, Daco-Romans, Free Dacians and Slavic people coexisted in the same geographical region since at least 6th Century CE ( most historians agree). Back then, there were no borders and people were kind of trying to understand each other with the languages they had (especially without written language, they were borrowing each other words). I see this process covering a long period of time, so the language of Romanians will have more Slavic words if the Slavic DNA (hence more participation to the gene pool from the Slavic side) will be at higher concentration.

I'm imagining the Slavic movement towards South-South West kind of like a slow river (bare with me on this one). We know that water absorbs minerals from the ground as it flows, right? And let's imagine that the original Slavic people had predominant R1A yDNA, and Dacian/Thracian people had predominant I2a-DIN. Moving south they mixed with people that they met. First, the Free Dacians (that were living outside what used to be Roman Dacia), then the Romanized Dacians( already mixed with other DNA from the Roman occupation) and then the Thracian people all the way to Serbia, Croatia and so forth. Now, based what I saw as far as the I2a-DIN map: Moldavians, have more I2a-DIN than Romanians (because of more Free Dacian contribution to their DNA, and we presupposed I2a-DIN being Dacian). Moving south-southwest mixing of the people continue over a longer period of time that we think and the predominance of R1A yDNA gets more diminished, and by the time it got to the what know is Serbia-Croatia region, I2a-DIN predominance is growing stronger (higher concentration of I2a-DIN in that region, right?).
It might be oversimplistic, but it kind of makes sense, don't you think?
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This is good example, as those Thracians/Dacians migrated Balkans in medieval era they were likely called White Croats or Vlachs by this time and they became Illyricized in their migration. Some I2A-DIN migrated north as far as Belarussia and became Russified. My ancestors remained in Carpathians for centuries, this is where Thracians/Dacians once roamed. To answer your question I believe I2A-DIN people are descended from Thracians/Dacians. In Carpatho-Rus there wasnt much new gene flow to the mountains, allowing people to retain the I2A-DIN and R1A Slavic elements. This is evident in my Slavic admix (Europe East, North Slavic, Balkan, Hungarian, Russian, etc) being very high among commercial DNA testing companies ranging from 86.6%-99.96% Slavic admixture. It is important remember though these DNA calculators use different reference populations for their tests, I have called some of these company to discuss and they are reluctant to share all details of reference populations but assure more clarity in future regarding reference populations they are using.

One more thing has to be accounted for is that there is more diversity of I2A-DIN around Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, etc than there is around west Balkans, this is the proof I2A-DIN originated near Black Sea and than migrated. For example, there is 75% I2A-DIN in Bosnia which is country with roughly only 4 million, there is 21% I2A-DIN in Ukraine a country of 45 million, the % can be misleading in terms of exact numbers of I2A-DIN. There is more diversity I2A-DIN in Ukraine than in west Balkans and that is what some members not understanding.

Hutsuls is the group of Carpatho-Rusyns I descend from who are mostly I2A-DIN. We are now dispersed in Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and others. In terms of genetics and Y-DNA Haplogroups, Hutsuls are closest compared with Croatian mainlanders.

Genetics of Carpatho-Rus

"In terms of haplogroup frequencies, the Hutsuls are more like their non-Rusyn neighbors (especially Ukrainians) than the Boykos or Lemkos. Meanwhile, Boykos and Lemkos are most like Romanians and Czechs, and Hutsuls are most like Croatian mainlanders. The Hutsuls are the easternmost Rusyns, living in Hutsulschyna in easternmost Subcarpathian Rus' in Ukraine and in neighboring northernmost Romania."
 
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Unbelievable! This kid drove away all the interesting posters from this topic and spread like cancer.

Is there any rule to ban a member for being annoying? Plus I'm sure Kingslav is under 14yo.
 
Nikola! It is ok your parents name you after Serbs, because you are one. How many fake account you have on here little nephew? I destroyed you many time already son, do you really want continue? Cancer not light topic to throw around, this surely indicates the great wisdom you dont have. You should read more little buddy.
 
Balkanite said:
Trojet, you shouldnt expect Nik or the others to counter any facts.

The child does obviously not know what facts are. So for him countering facts is a whole new undiscovered dimension of knowlegde.
Its like schooling my 3 year old nephew. We got to start from the bottom here.
For gods sake, he is using 2010ish wikipedia articles written by serbs, to prove a point about haplogroups. It is very convinient for him though, that way he can keep his greek helmeted avatar while still being a slav.
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^ I finally agree with Balkanite

Nik, some members have IQ to read all 44 pages of thread in relatively short amount of time.
 
Garrick said:
And back to topic.

It is natural that I-PH908 is represented among Ukrainians, Poles, Belarus and other Slavic people what I wanted to say (but made accidental translate language error).

Unfortunately faith of people in the Balkans was very difficult, almost unbearable, in time of Ottomans.

Due to Muslim Ottoman oppression, many people had to evade their homes, including Serbs from Kosovo and Metohija.

Great migration of Serbs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

During the Austro-Turkish war (1683-1699) relations between Muslims and Christians in the European provinces of the Ottoman Empire were extremely radicalized, resulting in calls by Muslim religious leaders for the persecution of local Christians and Jews. As a result of oppression, Christians and their church leaders, headed by Serbian Patriarch Arsenije III Serbian sided with the Austrians in 1689. In the following campaigns, Turkish forces conducted systematic atrocities against the Christian population in Serbian regions, resulting in the Great Migration of 1690.

Sources provide different data regarding the number of people in the first migration:


  • 37,000 families into Habsburg Monarchy, according to a manuscript at Sisatovac monastery written by monk Stefan of Ravanica 28 years after the first wave.
  • 37,000 families, according to a book by Pavle Julinac, printed in 1765.
  • 37,000 families led by the Patriarch, according to Jovan Rajić, published in 1794–95.
  • 37,000 families led by the Patriarch, according to Johann Engel, published 1801.
  • Emile Picot concluded that it was 35,000 to 40,000 families, between 400,000 and 500,000 people. "It is a constant tradition that this population is counted by families, not by heads" also insisting that these were large extended families (see Zadruga).
  • The Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences, supports the figure of 37,000 families.

Only in First migration a large number of Serbs have fled, mostly from Kosovo.
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It's unbelievable how you serbs still continue in the XXI century to spread and use this serb myths of the XIX century. Myths invented and used to justify the invasion of Albanian lands including Kosova and the extermination of the Albanian nation. It's not serious not only that you use an biased source like Wikipedia, but even in this case, your quote is selective, a clear tentative to falsify the reality. Let me post here what you have "forget" to post from same page, the last paragraph:
According to Noel Malcolm, data that state that 37,000 families participated in this migration derive from a single source: a Serbian monastic chronicle which was written many years after the event and contains several other errors.[15]
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Yes, what's the story with this single source written many years after the so-called migration of serbs and with several errors?
The modern serb scholars, those that can be barely accepted as such (and here i am not referring to the bunch of clowns headed by the pseudo-historian Dusan Batakoviç who left this world around one month ago), don't accept anymore this ridiculous serb myth.
That some people followed the Austrian army and were allowed to settle in Hungary is a historical fact that cannot be denied. Yet no historical documents are available regarding the number of people who emigrated, nor the exact areas affected by this emigration. The figure of 37 000 families,i.e., about 350 000 people, claimed by some historians, cannot be supported by any indisputable nor plausible evidence. This figure is, as it seems, the result of the arbitrary interpretation of the word void mentioned in some church document.
The appeal to the Balkan peoples to rise against the Turks was not merely made by the Patriarch Arsenije Crnojevic, but jointly by him and the Albanian Archbishop of Shkup (Skopje), Pjetër Bogdani. According to documents, there were about 20 000 rebels, Serbs and Albanians, and only some of them(including also some Muslim Albanians, not only Christians) emigrated north of the Danube. This figure does not tally with that claimed by the Serbs. The Ottomans offered amnesty, but this amnesty was not accepted by Orthodox Serb Church, not because they had any serious problem with Ottomans, absolutely no, but because the real enemy of this Church(Serb Church), was exactly an another Orthodox Church, The Patriarchate of Istanbul. For this reason the Orthodox Serb Church decided to migrated in Austrian territory because they got from the Emperor the same position that the Patriarchate of Istanbul had in Ottoman Empire. The majority of the common people in today territory of Kosova and South Serbia accepted the amnesty and continued their life.
The historical error concerning various aspects of this emigration and the faulty interpretation of the word void used in church documents were already pointed out by a Serb himself - the well-known historian J. Tomic, in a passage which, surprisingly, has not received the attention it deserves from some western historians and the Anonymous author/s of Wikipedia, considering the fact that it dates from 1913. It is contained in:
Les Albanais en Vieille-Serbie et dans le Sandjak de Novi-bazar, Paris, Hachette, 1913.

"This retreat of the southern and south-eastern population toward the north is known in Serbian history as the emigration of the Serbian people to Hungary under the Patriarch Arsenije Crnojevic. This event has lead in some instances to a few errors which for more than a century and a half, have been repeated from one book to another. One of those errors concerns the very regions that were hit by this emigration. If one opens at random any history book of the Serbian people one never fails to read everywhere as if it were a firmly established fact that during this emigration the Serbian regions of the Southwest - i.e., the regions of Prizren, Djakovo, Ipek - were the ones that suffered the most and remained vacant. This claim is incorrect and must be amended once and forever. Indeed, when presented in this manner the facts do not correspond to the reality. If this historical error has persisted for so long it is because the question has not been sufficiently studied. One has relied on notes and chronicles written by Orthodox priests and the 'void' mentioned in them has been identified with the ruin of the Serbian people; in reality, it refers to Orthodoxy."

Indeed, it's time for you Garrick and others like you, once and forever to stop spreading this crap around the forums and other mediums.
 
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LABERIA said:
It's unbelievable how you serbs still continue in the XXI century to spread and use this serb myths of the XIX century. Myths invented and used to justify the invasion of Albanian lands including Kosova and the extermination of the Albanian nation. It's not serious not only that you use an biased source like Wikipedia, but even in this case, your quote is selective, a clear tentative to falsify the reality. Let me post here what you have "forget" to post from same page, the last paragraph:

Yes, what's the story with this single source written many years later the so-called migration of serbs and with several errors?
The modern serb scholars, those that can be barely accepted as such (and here i am not referring to the bunch of clowns headed by the pseudo-historian Dusan Batakoviç who left this world around one month ago), don't accept anymore this ridiculous serb myth.
That some people followed the Austrian army and were allowed to settle in Hungary is a historical fact that cannot be denied. Yet no historical documents are available regarding the number of people who emigrated, nor the exact areas affected by this emigration. The figure of 37 000 families,i.e., about 350 000 people, claimed by some historians, cannot be supported by any indisputable nor plausible evidence. This figure is, as it seems, the result of the arbitrary interpretation of the word void mentioned in some church document.
The appeal to the Balkan peoples to rise against the Turks was not merely made by the Patriarch Arsenije Crnojevic, but jointly by him and the Albanian Archbishop of Shkup (Skopje), Pjetër Bogdani. According to documents, there were about 20 000 rebels, Serbs and Albanians, and only some of them(including also some Muslim Albanians, not only Christians) emigrated north of the Danube. This figure does not tally with that claimed by the Serbs. The Ottomans offered amnesty, but this amnesty was not accepted by Orthodox Serb Church, not because they have any serious problem with Ottomans but because the real enemy of this Church(Serb Church), was exactly an another Orthodox Church, The Patriarchate of Istanbul. For this reason the Orthodox Serb Church decided to migrated in Austrian territory because they got from the Emperor the same position that the Patriarchate of Istanbul had in Ottoman Empire. The majority of the common people in today territory of Kosova and South Serbia accepted the amnesty and continued their life.
The historical error concerning various aspects of this emigration and the faulty interpretation of the word void used in church documents were already pointed out by a Serb himself - the well-known historian J. Tomic, in a passage which, surprisingly, has not received the attention it deserves from some western historians and the Anonymous author/s of Wikipedia, considering the fact that it dates from 1913. It is contained in:
Les Albanais en Vieille-Serbie et dans le Sandjak de Novi-bazar, Paris, Hachette, 1913.

"This retreat of the southern and south-eastern population toward the north is known in Serbian history as the emigration of the Serbian people to Hungary under the Patriarch Arsenije Crnojevic. This event has lead in some instances to a few errors which for more than a century and a half, have been repeated from one book to another. One of those errors concerns the very regions that were hit by this emigration. If one opens at random any history book of the Serbian people one never fails to read everywhere as if it were a firmly established fact that during this emigration the Serbian regions of the Southwest - i.e., the regions of Prizren, Djakovo, Ipek - were the ones that suffered the most and remained vacant. This claim is incorrect and must be amended once and forever. Indeed, when presented in this manner the facts do not correspond to the reality. If this historical error has persisted for so long it is because the question has not been sufficiently studied. One has relied on notes and chronicles written by Orthodox priests and the 'void' mentioned in them has been identified with the ruin of the Serbian people; in reality, it refers to Orthodoxy."

So indeed, it's time for you Garrick and others like you, once and forever to stop spreading this crap around the forums and other mediums.
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What your alternate source have to do with I2A-DIN? In the region contolled by Austro-Hungary you are trying reference now topic of Serbs northern migrations, there already lived White Croats of I2A-DIN Y-DNA haplogroup for centuries in this region of Austro-Hungary, they were first mentioned in 7th century after arriving from Steppe.

"In the 7th century, some White Croats migrated from their homeland White Croatia to the territory of modern day Croatia." White Croats

Here is map of White Croats.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg
 
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Nik said:
I was talking about the old R1a that possibly came to the Balkans with the IE tribes and is present among Albanians and Greeks. I might be wrong, but this is what I read here in Eupedia. So please correct if I'm wrong about the R1a among Vlachs.


I used the word yet, didnt I? I'm the one saying we dont know yet and you're the one claiming that CTS10228 is definitely Slavic.



Again, I'm not trying to mislead anyone or pull a Garrick-like move with fake information, but AFAIK there has been found J2a and R1a among Thracian skeletons. You're more than welcome to correct me and I'll automatically change my views on it. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "tons" since the topic is know to be full of grammar Nazis waiting for any opportunity to roast you, but it was just a logical assumptions. In any case, I take that back. Kindly read my sentence by ignoring the word "tons".


You seem to be convinced that I'm convinced. In reality I keep mentioning in every post Dacians, Bastarnae, Scythians, Slavs, Celts.
Isn't the Slavic R1a enough evidence of ruling elite imposing their language to the rest? I believe their numbers were more than enough to gradually Slavicize tribes of shepherds over 1000 years.



Don't play dumb with me by feeding me kindergarten logic of not confusing genetics with appearance, unless you believe that Early Slavs were darker than Balkanites. Since I personally believe that they were indeed fairer (just like ancient Greeks perceived Scythians) and these I2a + R1a tribes moved to Herzegovina where they make up 90% of the yDna (and I'm counting the Slavic mtdna as 0% to make a point), then for what reasons do they end up looking the way they do? Is there any other admixture among Herzegovinians that we dont know of? Were the indigenous Herzegovinian women way darker than those in the surrounding areas?


You'd be surprised but that attitude gets you wherever you want in life. I'm actually not doing bad at all.


Accepting? Rather not giving a F of what a bunch of losers think about you. And most Albanians dont give a F either and are too damn proud in case you haven't noticed.


Fair enough. I hope you understand that I have no personal interest in making I2a Dacian or non-Slavic like some Albanians claim here. I'm just entitled to an opinion and I'm holding off until the evidence is conclusive.

With regards to phenotype, the only reason I can find is that the I2a + R1a tribes mixed a lot with Romanian-like Mediterranean natives in Eastern Balkans before moving to Illyricum. But then again, didn't the White Croats and Serbs from somewhere near Poland?
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You portrayed your own people as a bunch of thugs and criminals. No, I don't think most Albanians wish to be seen that way–including the many I know personally.
 
Dumidre said:
I have to partially disagree with you on this one. Language and genetics are indirectly somehow connected. Let's take Romania for example: in peaceful times, people from different ethnic group intermix through marriage and for a long period of time language will change towards the majority of people living on that land. If Romanians have 42.6% Slavic DNA, their language overtime will definitely become more Slavic, unless we have this ridiculous scenario that for hundreds of years the Slavic part of the family will be forbidden to speak their own language... so imho, this is one of the reasons I believe that I2a-din has Dacian origin...
Salutations,
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Nothing's "Dacian" about the Romanian subclade of I2.

Anyway, my answer's here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ic-populations?p=516824&viewfull=1#post516824
 
So, if I2-Din is not Dacian in Romanians, and R1a is Slavic. Which part (if any) of Romanian DNA is Dacian? Just curious...
 
Dumidre said:
So, if I2-Din is not Dacian in Romanians, and R1a is Slavic. Which part (if any) of Romanian DNA is Dacian? Just curious...
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We simply don't know. We need some Dacian samples from the Classical Antiquity period. Not to mention that Dacians were primarily residing in Transylvania, while Wallachia was primarily settled by Getae and Moldova by Carpi.
There were a lot of smaller tribes and we don't know if they were genetically related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Thrace_and_Dacia

It's a guessing game right now. We need more subclade testing and at least a couple of samples from the period.

[TABLE="width: 900"]
[TR]
[TD]Hapogroup[/TD]
[TD]Pro[/TD]
[TD]Contra[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]R1b[/TD]
[TD]Classic steppe marker[/TD]
[TD]15% in Romanians, 11% Bulgarians, but only 6% in Serbs
We know that Dacians lived in Moesia Superior in current Serbia,
especially after the Roman conquest of Dacia.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E1b1b[/TD]
[TD]Solid distribution across the Balkans. Also present
in isolated communities such as Bosniak Croats,
where J2 and R1b is almost absent.[/TD]
[TD]Most likely a marker for a proto-Balkan population,
so the Dacians/Thracians and related Indo-Europeans
are off the radar.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J2[/TD]
[TD]Assuming a connection with the steppe
Massagetae, who lived around today's
Uzbekistan, there's an elevated
presence of J2 there.
This contrasts with the neigbouring
related people such as Kyrgyz, where J2 is virtually absent.
In addition, Thyssagetae were recorded just
North of the Caspian Sea.
Non-Slavic people from around the region in
Russia, such as Kazan Tatars and Chuvash display
an increased distribution of J2 (14 and 15%),
as opposed to ~3% in Russians.[/TD]
[TD]We need a deeper subclade dive.
J2 seems to be characteristic of South Balkans,
some subclades having been brought over by
Minoans/Myceneans.
A J2b was found in Early Bronze Age Croatia,
but Dacians were somewhere on the steppe back then.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
I know we don't enough data but, don't you find it odd that the main difference between the north Slavs and the south Slavs (with Romanians sandwiched in between) is the increased presence of I2a-DIN in Romanians and the south Slavs AND the higher presence of I2a-DIN matches the old Dacian/Thracian territory? Just coincidence? My intuition thinks no...
 
Dumidre said:
I know we don't enough data but, don't you find it odd that the main difference between the north Slavs and the south Slavs (with Romanians sandwiched in between) is the increased presence of I2a-DIN in Romanians and the south Slavs AND the higher presence of I2a-DIN matches the old Dacian/Thracian territory? Just coincidence? My intuition thinks no...
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Our subclade of I2a split further North, around the border of Belarus/Poland and I'll let you guess who might have brought it South. There isn't any connection whatsoever with the Dacians/Thracians.
I'd like the Romanians to be special snowflakes as much as you do, but you just can't argue with the DNA evidence.
 
Agreed. Not the best material out there. But, the point I was trying to make was that, I2a was already existing among Romanians and the Balkan Populations when the Slavs arrived... are the Slavic people carrier of I2a? No doubt!
It's one of the questions when we never have the right answer; like who came first?... the chicken or the egg...
 
I can trace my paternal line back to 2000 years. At this time my ancestors lived on the west coast from the Cimbrian Peninsula. Later, they joined the Franks and lived in the Rhineland. In the chronicles they are called Teutones.
 
Kingslav said:
I agree with your opinion I2A-DIN has Thracian/Dacian origins with a fraction of these ancestors migrating and populating the west Balkans (Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, etc) during medieval period. As far the language goes it is tricky in this part of world, I will give you personal example. My grandfather was born in Bukovina, Northern Romania when this region belonged to Austro-Hungary prior to second world war, my family has deep roots in this region known as Carpatho-Rus, however his father my great grandfather was of Bulgar descent. My grandfather married into Polish family and after WW2 relocated to southern Poland and for this reason I was born citizen of Poland, adopted the language, culture, Roman Catholicism religion. In Poland less than 5-10% people carry I2A-DIN mostly this is settlers from Carpatho-Rus. The 42.6% Slavic genes in Romania certainly still exists there despite the Romanian language, but over time through mixing of genetics new phenotypes and subraces are created.
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Does anyone know what the Dacians spoke before speaking latin ?
Was it thracian? ...........because Thracians south of Dacians did not change to latin, so it could be dacians spoke something completly different than thracian and so can be linguistically divided but ethnically united
 
Dumidre said:
But, the point I was trying to make was that, I2a was already existing among Romanians and the Balkan Populations when the Slavs arrived... are the Slavic people carrier of I2a? No doubt!
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It would have made since if the vast majority of I2a in Romania and the Balkans wasn't I2a1b2a1 CTS5966, CTS10228, L147.2.
This one has been brought over by the Slavs.
 
Yes, but Slavs are predominant R1A and when they brought all the I2-DIN in the Balkans they mixed with somebody, no? Who are these mysterious people? I see Ukraine having more I2-DIN than the rest of the "north" Slavs, and the I2-DIN is increasing southbound: Moldavia, Romania... in Serbia is even higher ("Moesia Superior" right?)... the Dacians are gone as a nation but their DNA is left through out Eastern and Southern Europe. I just don't believe in the extermination theory...
Off topic: I recently read a book written by James O.Noyes written in 1850s: "Roumania: the Border Land of the Christian and the Turk"... very interesting read, I highly recommend it. The author calls the Romanians: Daco-Romans... in 1850s! The name was preserved for 17 centuries. Now, back to genetics: The highest percentage in Romanians is I2-DIN (Slavic?), R1A (Slavic) and R1B (Italy and Western Europe). What happened with the Dacian DNA?
 
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