Hitler, Religion, and Morality

Perhaps the Chinese would have a different view of the kindness of the Japanese as a people. Or perhaps the Mongols, or the Filipinos, or more specifically, in terms of China, the people who lived through The Rape of Nanking, if any still survive, or the inhabitants of Japanese prisoner of war camps.

Picking up the garbage, forming orderly lines, and being so 'adapted' to societal norms that one never breaks them, or perhaps so afraid of societal retribution in an authoritarian society that one never breaks them, which is probably the same thing, are not necessarily indicators of "kindness" or "humaneness".

agree. I've heard all kinds of stories about Japan being so hierarchical and obedience-driven that subordinate employees, minorities, and women are routinely humiliated in various indirect forms, and they have no means of reciprocation. Many Koreans in Japan are still differentiated from mainstream society even-though they have lived there for over 200 years and there is no noticeable difference. Japanese men rarely immigrate, somehow they equate that with accepting to be second-class (the same dish that they offer foreigners there). They might not be christian or muslim but they seem to have their own set of dished-out rules that they follow even more blindly.
 
religion is an invention of rulers to justify their own position and to convince their subjects are one people with him as their sole ruler and protector
look at the bible, it's an invention of some Jewish king to motivate the Jews to unite and to fight the Filistines with him as their sole ruler
history is being distorted and fantasised in order to suit the proper story-telling
even today some still believe they are the only 'chosen people' and they can claim the 'promised land' for themselves only
you can make the same parallel with many other religions too

It is being estimated that Aboriginals arrived in Australia around 70.000 to 60.000 years ago. They were basically separated from the rest of mankind ever since. The religion of the Aboriginals has all the elements that modern religions have: Creation myth, Gods and spirits, an afterlife. Are you seriously trying to tell me that a number of "rulers" invented this - more than 70.000 years ago - and this invention to rule remains intact for over 70.000 years?
 
Maybe it's the circles I travel in, but I know a lot of well-educated jerks. :confused: In fact, I don't think education is much of a factor either way. Nor does education affect the logic or objectivity of people's opinions. I gave up expecting more dis-interested logic from educated people than from uneducated people a long ago. Educated people are just able to make the arguments for their pre-determined opinions sound better.

Nor is the "jerk factor" much affected by atheism or superficial religious observance, by the way.

What *is* surprising to me, and this is not at all addressed to Aberdeen, is the fundamental lack of knowledge about religion, either in terms of the tenets of the various dogma, the history of various religions, both specifically and in the context of secular history, and the nature of spirituality as a whole. It doesn't stop people from having vociferous if vapid opinions about it, of course.

I do think that education, in the liberal arts sense, can often be a civilizing force, although it's not infallible.

I'm not quite sure how you've determined that people who disagree with your views on one particular religion lack knowledge about religion, whether christian or other. If you want to consider the views of atheists and agnostics to be "vapid", you're entitled to your opinion, but I've known many atheists and agnostics who know far more about religion than most religious believers. That's certainly not true of all unbelievers and sceptics, as bicicleur has just demonstrated for us, but I think it's generally true.

However, this is getting off the subject of the thread a bit. After due consideration, I decided that Germany's greatest contribution to the world is good beer, even though they have to share that glory with the Dutch and Flemish (who are, after all, sort of Germans). And maybe the Bavarian invention of Octoberfest should be mentioned.
 
I do think that education, in the liberal arts sense, can often be a civilizing force, although it's not infallible.

I'm not quite sure how you've determined that people who disagree with your views on one particular religion lack knowledge about religion, whether christian or other. If you want to consider the views of atheists and agnostics to be "vapid", you're entitled to your opinion, but I've known many atheists and agnostics who know far more about religion than most religious believers. That's certainly not true of all unbelievers and sceptics, as bicicleur has just demonstrated for us, but I think it's generally true.

However, this is getting off the subject of the thread a bit. After due consideration, I decided that Germany's greatest contribution to the world is good beer, even though they have to share that glory with the Dutch and Flemish (who are, after all, sort of Germans). And maybe the Bavarian invention of Octoberfest should be mentioned.

You're assuming too much, Aberdeen. That was an equal opportunity put down, and, as I said, not at all addressed to you. The days when any decent number of Christians or Jews in western society actually knew anything at all about their religions are long gone. :)

But you're right, this discussion is off topic here.
 
religion is an invention of rulers to justify their own position and to convince their subjects are one people with him as their sole ruler and protector
look at the bible, it's an invention of some Jewish king to motivate the Jews to unite and to fight the Filistines with him as their sole ruler
history is being distorted and fantasised in order to suit the proper story-telling
even today some still believe they are the only 'chosen people' and they can claim the 'promised land' for themselves only
you can make the same parallel with many other religions too

Let me make an analogy: Football was not invented to give the masses games to control them. Football was invented as a fun game. And even if mass sports are supposed to be a good way to control the population, it would never have worked unless the sports weren't so massively popular. And even if dictators like to use sports as a way to "give them bread and games" the outcome is never sure, as the existence of football riots in the former Soviet-Union may show.

Yet you want me to believe something that is similar to the idea that some one invented football to control the masses.

EDIT: Yes, this is getting off topic.
 
religion is an invention of rulers to justify their own position and to convince their subjects are one people with him as their sole ruler and protector

look at the bible, it's an invention of some Jewish king to motivate the Jews to unite and to fight the Filistines with him as their sole ruler
Yes, the organized religion's main purpose was and still is (except few western countries) to unite groups or nations behind their leaders. Historically the strongest nations rose to dominance behind one monolithic religion. It didn't matter what it was called and how many gods it had, the important fact is that it was one and standing behind the leader, also legitimizing leaders as chosen by the gods or even descended from them. No wonder people were easily misled that gods were on their side, that they helped them conquer and kill enemies, take their land, made them special and superior. If you won a war it was mainly because it was a will of your gods.
Ones we have two or more dominant religions it is a good environment for a domestic war, and weakening the nation, till freedom of religion and tolerance had to be invented to keep peace in a multicultural nations.

history is being distorted and fantasised in order to suit the proper story-telling
That's our romantic spirituality side. Also helpful for surviving, inspiring, energizing, also coping with death and suffering, and answering many questions the science wayback could address. As religion is mainly a cultural phenomenon, spirituality is mainly genetic.

even today some still believe they are the only 'chosen people' and they can claim the 'promised land' for themselves only
This is an amazing documentary about evolution of god, particularly the God of Israel, a real eye opener.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yzpaIrTFMc
Some more here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28689-Favorite-Historical-Movies?p=418113&viewfull=1#post418113

you can make the same parallel with many other religions too
Yes, because they have same purpose to unite the nation, to make people stronger as a group.

Times changed a lot during last hundred years, that's why Western Christianity religions are lost and trying to reinvent themselves. Being cut of from political game and economy (as vast land owners) what is left for them is the realm of ethics and morality. Pretty soon even this domain will be taken away.
 
...
In Europe the most peaceful countries are Scandinavian countries, which also happen to be the least religious.

In the USA, the most violent states are usually also the most religious (Bible Belt). Louisiana, Mississipi, Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Arkansas and Georgia make up most of the states with the highest murder rates. These are exactly the 7 most religious US States according to a Gallup poll. In contrast, the states with the lowest murder rates also happen to be the least religious (Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Oregon). Still convinced that Christianity bring peace on Earth ?
Crime rates flucuate, but the states you've mentioned certainly do have a long-term problem with violence... however linking Christianity to violent areas simply does not fly. What about the Northern cities of Detroit and Chicago? I've lived all over the U.S. and I can tell you are missing the main cause of this crime. And that is the wholesale destruction of the family unit in minority/urban communities.

Whether or not this has anything to do with the for-profit prison industry that's solidly entrenched in the U.S.-- I can only speculate. Popular media (gangsta rap, glorification of drugs) has played a big role in the dismantling of the African-American family.

Also please don't pin this crime on racial tensions of the "Old South". I've found that blacks and whites relate far better to one another in the Deep South vs. the Northern States. When you interact with folks on a daily basis, colors seem to fade away. Most violence committed in the U.S. is between members of the same ethnic group.
 
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It is...BEYOND ignorant and absurd to imply that religion is necessary for a person to be 'moral', compassionate, forgiving, and all the rest. That is patently untrue, and, anyone who would deny that both scientific and overall social progress(universal suffrage, the idea of basic civil rights for all, widespread literacy, things like that) have grown in inverse proportion to the decline of organized religion, is living in la la land, sorry.
 
There was a period where monotheistic dogma was the main organizing force of western society. We call it the 'dark ages' for a reason.
 
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Originally Posted by Angela


As for the U.S., the violence is worst in urban, mainly minority cities. In my personal opinion, one which is increasingly accepted despite the "politically correct" push back, it is the collapse of the family which is largely to blame, and this collapse, while it has been encouraged by the practices of the welfare state, also owe a great deal to the collapse of the sexual morality which used to be enforced by traditional religious beliefs.
uscentury.gif

http://polyticks.com/polyticks/beararms/liars/usa.htm
Looking at this chart, especially recent sudden fall of homicide rates, one can argue that, crime rate is rather loosely connected to traditional family values.

New York rates show same trends too. In 2005 there was even less crime than in 1965.
[SIZE=+1]New York Crime Index Rates Per 100,000 Inhabitants[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Forcible [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Aggravated [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Larceny- [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Vehicle [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Year [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Population [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Index [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Violent [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Property [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Murder [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Rape [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Robbery [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]assault [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Burglary [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Theft [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Theft [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1965 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,073,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,065.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]325.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,740.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]155.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]152.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,015.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,401.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]323.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1966 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,258,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,338.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]342.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,995.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]13.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]164.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]159.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,074.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,568.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]352.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1967 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,336,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,776.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]409.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,367.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]14.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]219.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]170.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,195.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,715.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]456.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1968 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,113,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,579.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]543.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,035.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]14.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]330.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]192.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,385.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,071.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]579.0 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1969 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,321,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,569.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]577.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,991.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]7.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]15.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]353.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]201.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,356.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,005.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]629.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1970 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,190,740 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,971.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]685.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,286.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]7.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]15.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]446.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]215.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,470.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,125.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]690.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1971 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,391,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,084.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]788.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,295.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]9.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]531.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]230.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,488.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,113.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]694.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1972 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,366,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,380.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]754.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,626.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]22.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]470.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]250.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,306.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,748.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]572.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1973 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,265,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,458.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]741.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,716.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]26.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]442.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]261.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,348.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,753.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]615.0 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1974 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,111,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,034.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]803.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,231.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]28.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]479.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]284.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,500.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,155.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]574.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1975 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,120,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,635.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]856.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,779.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]28.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]516.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]301.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,666.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,471.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]641.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1976 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,084,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,225.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]868.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,357.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]25.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]529.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]302.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,763.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,855.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]738.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1977 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,924,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,087.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]831.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,255.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]29.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]472.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]319.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,728.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,782.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]745.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1978 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,748,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,792.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]841.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,951.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]29.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]472.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]329.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,650.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,628.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]672.0 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1979 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,649,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,205.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]917.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,287.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]30.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]529.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]345.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,746.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,836.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]704.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1980 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,506,690 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,911.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,029.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,882.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]30.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]641.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]344.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,061.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,060.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]759.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1981 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,594,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,905.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,069.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,835.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]31.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]684.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]342.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,991.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,066.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]777.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1982 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,659,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,468.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]990.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,478.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]29.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]610.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]338.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,671.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,025.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]780.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1983 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,667,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,902.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]914.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,988.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]30.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]536.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]336.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,410.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,854.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]723.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1984 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,735,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,577.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]914.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,662.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]31.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]506.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]365.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,257.2[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,755.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]650.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1985 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,783,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,588.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]929.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,658.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]9.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]32.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]504.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]383.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,235.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,824.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]599.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1986 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,772,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,767.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]985.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,781.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]30.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]514.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]430.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,221.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,923.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]637.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1987 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,825,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,952.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,008.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,944.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]31.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]503.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]462.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,216.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,024.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]703.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1988 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,898,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,309.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,097.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,212.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]30.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]544.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]509.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,218.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,133.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]859.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1989 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,950,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,293.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,131.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,162.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]29.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]579.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]510.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,176.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,033.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]952.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1990 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]17,990,455 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,363.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,180.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,182.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]14.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]29.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]624.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]512.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,160.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,979.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,042.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1991 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,058,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6,244.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,163.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,080.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]14.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]28.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]622.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]499.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,132.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,944.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,003.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1992 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,119,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,858.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,122.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,736.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]13.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]28.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]596.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]483.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,068.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,735.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]932.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1993 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,197,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,551.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,073.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,477.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]13.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]27.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]561.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]471.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]998.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,644.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]835.0 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1994 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,169,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5,070.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]965.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,105.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]11.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]25.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]476.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]451.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]906.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,489.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]709.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1995 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,136,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,560.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]841.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,718.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]8.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]23.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]399.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]410.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]808.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,344.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]565.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1996 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,185,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4,132.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]727.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,405.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]7.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]23.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]340.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]356.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]713.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,197.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]494.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1997 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,137,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,910.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]688.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,222.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]22.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]309.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]350.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]652.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,130.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]439.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1998 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,175,000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,588.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]637.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,950.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]21.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]270.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]341.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]576.7[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,998.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]375.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1999 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,196,601 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,279.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]588.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,690.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]240.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]323.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]512.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,858.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]320.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2000 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18,976,457 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3,099.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]553.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,545.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]213.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]316.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]463.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,796.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]285.8[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2001 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,084,350 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,913.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]513.6[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,399.9[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]191.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]298.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]421.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,725.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]253.0 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2002 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,134,293 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,807.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]496.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,310.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]20.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]191.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]280.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]400.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,662.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]247.5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2003 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,212,425 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,714.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]465.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,249.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]186.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]255.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]392.7[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,620.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]235.3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2004 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,280,727 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,632.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]440.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,192.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]173.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]243.3[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]366.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,613.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]212.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2005 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,315,721[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,554.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]444.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,101.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]18.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]182.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]238.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]352.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,564.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]185.0[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2006 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,306,183 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,487.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]434.9 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,052.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.8 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]16.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]178.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]235.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]355.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,531.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]166.4[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2007 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,297,729[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,392.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]414.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,978.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]15.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]161.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]233.7 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]336.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,497.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]145.3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2008[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,467,789[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,394.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]398.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,996.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.3 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]14.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]163.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]216.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]336.6 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,530.5 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]128.9[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2009[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]19,541,453[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2,316.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]384.4 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,932.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]13.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]144.0 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]223.1 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]321.2 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1,498.8[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]111.9[/SIZE]
201019,395,2062,352.2394.41,957.84.514.4147.6227.9339.51,511.9106.4
201119,501,6162,303.9397.21,906.73.914.1145.7233.5334.51,473.598.7
201219,570,2612,328.8406.81,922.03.514.6146.4242.3329.91,503.588.6
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm


For me crime rates are inversely related to economy and job prosperity than to family values. Don't take me wrong I'm a family man.
 
Yeah, I think that crime in the rust belt cities has a lot more to do with the fact that their main sources of employment were taken away decades ago, than it does to do with religion or family values.
 
For me crime rates are inversely related to economy and job prosperity than to family values.
True. Also agressive behavior as a lifestyle, is a sign of poor education or wrong type of education, which I guess is a side effect of poor economy and sometimes of radical ideologies. Both those factors coincidentally met in pre-Nazi Germany.
 
Hitler was neither Christian nor atheist, but he was religious. He recognized Aryanism.
The idea is that the original speakers of the Indo-European languages and their descendants up to the present day constitute a distinctive race or subrace of the larger Caucasian race.
They identified the Aryan race in Europe as having five subtype races: Nordic, Mediterranean, Dinaric, Alpine, and East Baltic. Of which the most pure is Nordic.
Aryanism says that Jews descended from non-European races, and particularly what is classified as the Near Asian race (Vorderasiatische) more commonly known as the Armenoid race.
Aryanism claims that Slavs evolved from Aryans who intermixed with Mongols.
These and other ideas evolved into the term "Aryan race" to refer to what they saw as being a master race, which was narrowly defined as being identical with the Nordic race, followed by other sub-races of the Aryan race.
So, you can like or dislike but these are the points.

My question is: were Aryans truly the prototype race or tribe in Indo-European branch.
Did really some Aryans split, then intermixed with other groups and races and new sub-groups like Slavs or Armenoids evolved?
Cause if you look this way: if a white person intermarries dark or darker person, all such lineage of descendants is never going to come back to white. From white person by interbreeding you can create any race, thus probably any culture. But from dark person you can’t create white blonde no matter how much you are going to interbreed.
So, does it really not explain that white blonde Nordic people are the origin of our civilization, a source of all other races and sub-groups evolved on the planet? And if that it’s true, then master race term perfectly fits.
Or is it just genes mutation? If you want to use the last in your argument, make it compelling.:wary2:
 
Hitler was neither Christian nor atheist, but he was religious. He recognized Aryanism.
The idea is that the original speakers of the Indo-European languages and their descendants up to the present day constitute a distinctive race or subrace of the larger Caucasian race.
They identified the Aryan race in Europe as having five subtype races: Nordic, Mediterranean, Dinaric, Alpine, and East Baltic. Of which the most pure is Nordic.
Aryanism says that Jews descended from non-European races, and particularly what is classified as the Near Asian race (Vorderasiatische) more commonly known as the Armenoid race.
Aryanism claims that Slavs evolved from Aryans who intermixed with Mongols.
These and other ideas evolved into the term "Aryan race" to refer to what they saw as being a master race, which was narrowly defined as being identical with the Nordic race, followed by other sub-races of the Aryan race.
So, you can like or dislike but these are the points.

My question is: were Aryans truly the prototype race or tribe in Indo-European branch.
Did really some Aryans split, then intermixed with other groups and races and new sub-groups like Slavs or Armenoids evolved?
Cause if you look this way: if a white person intermarries dark or darker person, all such lineage of descendants is never going to come back to white. From white person by interbreeding you can create any race, thus probably any culture. But from dark person you can’t create white blonde no matter how much you are going to interbreed.
So, does it really not explain that white blonde Nordic people are the origin of our civilization, a source of all other races and sub-groups evolved on the planet? And if that it’s true, then master race term perfectly fits.
Or is it just genes mutation? If you want to use the last in your argument, make it compelling.:wary2:

I always find this "Aryan" shit hilarious, because the Iranian speaking people who called themselves Aryans weren't exactly the colour of fresh snow. And yes, Hitler did call himself christian, but he had a rather eccentric idea of what it was about.
 
I suspect that one of the main causes of high crime and social breakdown is not poverty as much as economic uncertainty. A peasant family living in a low tech environment with very little in the way of material possessions but surrounded by relatives and friends usually is not a breeding ground of crime. But when children grow up without structure, often as a result of one or both parents losing their livelihood, the children often drift into petty crime and, once they get labelled as criminals, really commit to that kind of lifestyle.
 
I like your analogy, epoch. Just because tyrants have often seen a certain type of religious dogma or a certain type of religious practice as effective ways of controlling people doesn't mean that religion was created for the purpose of controlling people.

I think some people want religion as a way of explaining the universe to themselves because they're not comfortable with "I don't know" and others use religion as a way of coping with their fear of death. And some folks are genuinely convinced that non-visible energies and powers do exist in the world and use certain spiritual practices, often framed as part of religious belief systems, in order to try to communicate with and interact with those energies.

I think that it's the religious ideas that appeal most strongly to those who fear death that are easiest to exploit for purposes of controlling the masses. Some folk have speculated that Emperor Constantine decided to remove the legal sanctions against christianity and make it the official Roman religion because he thought that its emphasis on the afterlife and on deity would help to control people and obey their emperor. But even if that's true, he didn't invent christianity, he just made it a tool of government.
 
Let me make an analogy: Football was not invented to give the masses games to control them. Football was invented as a fun game. And even if mass sports are supposed to be a good way to control the population, it would never have worked unless the sports weren't so massively popular. And even if dictators like to use sports as a way to "give them bread and games" the outcome is never sure, as the existence of football riots in the former Soviet-Union may show. Yet you want me to believe something that is similar to the idea that some one invented football to control the masses.
Why do people need sports, or even better, why people enjoy group sports?

When I look at football, or any groups sport, I can see two different tribes fighting, physically battling, running, throwing, etc, competing with each other with one goal in mind: to win, to dominate, to bring home bacon. Practically it is nothing more than what hunter-gatherers did for millions of years. Group of men running together after a common goal/prey, or group of men fighting other tribe to win the spoils of war and dominance. Also fans are nothing more than whole tribe pulling together behind their warriors and their tribe identity, a small scale nationalism if you will. Old HGs habits are still strong in us.
So it is true that football was not invented for higher social purposes. But once existed, it was taken over by a big business to serve purpose of building wealth for them and players. It works for fans, clubs and owners, so it is continued as such. Likewise first simple religions were not invented for purpose of centralised power, but only on grounds of human spirituality, but these first religions were quickly taken over by leaders as a good controlling tool of whole populous. Obviously it gave good results, making groups stronger, that's why it was continued in such form for millennia till pretty much present.
 
Did really some Aryans split, then intermixed with other groups and races and new sub-groups like Slavs or Armenoids evolved?
Cause if you look this way: if a white person intermarries dark or darker person, all such lineage of descendants is never going to come back to white. From white person by interbreeding you can create any race, thus probably any culture. But from dark person you can’t create white blonde no matter how much you are going to interbreed.
So, does it really not explain that white blonde Nordic people are the origin of our civilization, a source of all other races and sub-groups evolved on the planet? And if that it’s true, then master race term perfectly fits.
Or is it just genes mutation? If you want to use the last in your argument, make it compelling.:wary2:
On contrary, the poves of bringing compelling evidence is on a person making extraordinary claims. Try proving your unbilivable claims.

So, does it really not explain that white blonde Nordic people are the origin of our civilization, a source of all other races and sub-groups evolved on the planet?
Provide a proof that Egyptian, Babylonian or even Greek civilization, not mentioning Indian or Chinese, was started by Nordics, and they are source of other races.
 
Hitler obviously was raised Catholic, and of course used religion as a PR tool in the NSDAP's rise to power, but anyone who has really studied the subject should know that he didn't take Christianity seriously as an adult, it's inaccurate to describe him or the Nazi movement as Christian. Christianity was definitely not part of the official Nazi philosophy, and was in fact discouraged to a large degree by the regime. The chief party ideologue, Alfred Rosenberg, was staunchly anti-Christian, as were Himmler, Bormann, Streicher, Hess, Eichmann, Darre, and most other key party figures, particularly in the SS. While it's obviously true that european anti-semitism historically had more than a little to do with Christianity, it really makes no sense for Pro OR anti-religious folk to use the Nazis as part of their argument, Nazi Germany was neither Christian nor atheistic as such, it was something else.
 

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