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Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, N.Levant & S. Caucasus

halfalp said:
I could be completely off, but i know new samples from Khvalynsk were already leaked. With some R1b,R1a,J1 and others.
Click to expand...

Yes this is the same info i have but are the subclades that precise like R1b-V1636 ?
This is what David Anthony wrote in the book I mentioned :

IMG_4689.jpg

According to him Khvalynsk men are overwhelmingly R1b, 5xQ1a(richly endowed) and single males J1,R1a,I2. Maybe by now they have more precise subclades for the R1b men. Do you have more info about the subclades ?
 
Riverman said:
The most parsimonious interpretation would be that the Caucasian influence, like we see it in Hurrians, being associated with the increased Caucasian-Iranian ancestry and the Semitic with Natufian-Levantine.
Click to expand...

Except that the J1 came from the north, and Caucasus fails as the mixing source.

Amazing, also, the presence of J1 on the Pontic Caspian steppe, a type of J1 related to Satsurbia in the Caucasus. I thought it was settled that only women from the south were allowed onto the steppe?
 
Anfänger said:
Yes this is the same info i have but are the subclades that precise like R1b-V1636 ?
This is what David Anthony wrote in the book I mentioned :

View attachment 12139

According to him Khvalynsk men are overwhelmingly R1b, 5xQ1a(richly endowed) and single males J1,R1a,I2. Maybe by now they have more precise subclades for the R1b men. Do you have more info about the subclades ?
Click to expand...

I have nothing more precise.
 
Anfänger said:
Yes this is the same info i have but are the subclades that precise like R1b-V1636 ?
This is what David Anthony wrote in the book I mentioned :



According to him Khvalynsk men are overwhelmingly R1b, 5xQ1a(richly endowed) and single males J1,R1a,I2. Maybe by now they have more precise subclades for the R1b men. Do you have more info about the subclades ?
Click to expand...

Hi Anfanger.
You right it needs to be clarified - But many people have it as given (Carlos Quiles, Davidki, etc) that the Kvhanlink R1b1a (L754), sample I0122 is actually a V1639. If I can will try to get the details... or someone who is still engaging Carlos Quiles can ask him as well.


PS: which actually begs the question. When samples were scarce Khva guys were ok for ancestors of Yamnaya and all, L754 was ok because they could be the ancestor of M269... but when they don't need it anymore then suddenly they figure it out it was V1636 (so not ancestor at all of Z2103 of Yamnaya) - A coincidence, I am sure.
 
Angela said:
Except that the J1 came from the north, and Caucasus fails as the mixing source.

Amazing, also, the presence of J1 on the Pontic Caspian steppe, a type of J1 related to Satsurbia in the Caucasus. I thought it was settled that only women from the south were allowed onto the steppe?
Click to expand...

How do we know J1 was from the South? Satsurblia? Why a 100% EHG J1 is coming from South, but a non-Steppe R1b-V1636 comes from South too? People have a tendencies to make the Middle-East a center line of Expansion or Absorbtion. We dont know, or dont have a clear cut on the dynamic of those ancient populations, and of those lineages. CHG is the fusion of a Northern ( ANE/EHG ) ancestry and a Southern one ( BA [Dzudzuana?] ). We dont know were it formed exactly, but we can say for sure, that it was found both North and South of the Caucasus range, exactly as J1 and R1b-V1636 are found both North and South of the Caucasus Range, with different ancestry.
 
Riverman said:
The Syrian samples have a significant proportion of E1b, so I don't think anything being decided about the Proto-Afro-Asiatic question. The single best candidate seems to be still a people related to Natufians, coming originally from North East Africa/Egypt and/or the bordering Levante/Southern Near East. If the Ebla samples represent Afro-Asiatics with Caucasian/Mesopotamian influx, this fits perfectly. Of course the direction of the language transmission remains open, but looking at other regions of Afro-Asiatic speech, anything else seems to make less sense.
Click to expand...

like ART015 from arslantepe the Ebla e1b1b1 sample belong
to e1b1b1-L795

ETM010 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
at the moment
it look like e-m78 branches entered Europe from north west africa ( and not anatolia ):thinking:
as among the tarfolat samples was found e-L618 the ancestor of e-v13
and the e-v13 snp probably originated in med Europe
and up untill now most of the E1B1B1 ancient remains from middle east: belong to branches E-z830 ,E-m34 and ,E-m34-L795
there was 1 e-m78 in ain gazzal that could be E-v22 though:thinking:
 
Olympus Mons said:
Hi Anfanger.
You right it needs to be clarified - But many people have it as given (Carlos Quiles, Davidki, etc) that the Kvhanlink R1b1a (L754), sample I0122 is actually a V1639. If I can will try to get the details... or someone who is still engaging Carlos Quiles can ask him as well.


PS: which actually begs the question. When samples were scarce Khva guys were ok for ancestors of Yamnaya and all, L754 was ok because they could be the ancestor of M269... but when they don't need it anymore then suddenly they figure it out it was V1636 (so not ancestor at all of Z2103 of Yamnaya) - A coincidence, I am sure.
Click to expand...

Interessting, I0122 is one of the old published Khvaylnsk samples. Hmm I can't say anything about the Khvaylnsk culture, there are lot of speculation and romours involved in the "Yamnaya ancestor or not" issue. Still, we have to wait for the paper. I hope in the coming paper they also tested some samples more south of Khvalynsk like Orlovka and/or Lower Don/Volga because there is definitely a southern-rich(CHG/Iran-like) population moving north.
 
halfalp said:
How do we know J1 was from the South? Satsurblia? Why a 100% EHG J1 is coming from South, but a non-Steppe R1b-V1636 comes from South too? People have a tendencies to make the Middle-East a center line of Expansion or Absorbtion. We dont know, or dont have a clear cut on the dynamic of those ancient populations, and of those lineages. CHG is the fusion of a Northern ( ANE/EHG ) ancestry and a Southern one ( BA [Dzudzuana?] ). We dont know were it formed exactly, but we can say for sure, that it was found both North and South of the Caucasus range, exactly as J1 and R1b-V1636 are found both North and South of the Caucasus Range, with different ancestry.
Click to expand...

Halfalp, think about it without your ideology blinders on. Why does this bother you people so much? It was millenia ago.

There was extremely significant population expansion from the areas of western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions. It's completely obvious in every ancient dna paper.

J1 moved south to north carrying CHG with it. CHG didn't exist in the frozen north.

It's time to stop trying to clutch at straws.
 
kingjohn said:
like ART015 from arslantepe the Ebla e1b1b1 sample belong
to e1b1b1-L795

ETM010 E1b1b1b2a1a1~ CTS4483/L795
at the moment
it look like e-m78 branches entered Europe from north west africa ( and not anatolia ):thinking:
as among the tarfolat samples was found e-L618 the ancestor of e-v13
and the e-v13 snp probably originated in med Europe
and up untill now most of the E1B1B1 ancient remains from middle east: belong to branches E-z830 ,E-m34 and ,E-m34-L795
there was 1 e-m78 in ain gazzal that could be E-v22 though:thinking:
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

Are you saying from northwest Africa through Spain, then all the way to the Balkans to massively expand in the Bronze Age?

Other than the E-m78 in Catalonia, are there any other samples from Iberia?

Are you saying it's not possible it moved from northwest Africa to the Levant, Anatolia, and then southeast Europe?
 
Angela said:
Halfalp, think about it without your ideology blinders on. Why does this bother you people so much? It was millenia ago.

There was extremely significant population expansion from the areas of western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions. It's completely obvious in every ancient dna paper.

J1 moved south to north carrying CHG with it. CHG didn't exist in the frozen north.

It's time to stop trying to clutch at straws.
Click to expand...

Aren't you the one bothered? Everything you just wrote about J1 and CHG is your own speculation. You quite dont seem to apply the same rules to yourself whether it's North or South.
 
Angela said:
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

Are you saying from northwest Africa through Spain, then all the way to the Balkans to massively expand in the Bronze Age?

Other than the E-m78 in Catalonia, are there any other samples from Iberia?

Are you saying it's not possible it moved from northwest Africa to the Levant, Anatolia, and then southeast Europe?
Click to expand...

it is possible :smile:
but angela at the moment ( could change in the future)
most of the e1b1b1 remains from levant antolia / armenia
are from e-z830 and its downstream
not e-m78 ( except the one sample i mention in ain gazhal ppnb jordan )
also there was no e1b1b1 in the barcin antolian farmers individuals .......:thinking:
lets just say there is still a lot of mystery about e-m78 and e-v13 specifically ....
the archelogical data don't support an enterence from antolia at the moment :thinking:
 
halfalp said:
Aren't you the one bothered? Everything you just wrote about J1 and CHG is your own speculation. You quite dont seem to apply the same rules to yourself whether it's North or South.
Click to expand...

I don't give a darn either way, halfalp, just as it doesn't matter to me other than as a minor point of scientific interest whether the Anatolian languages moved from the steppe down through the Caucasus, or from the Balkans to the Caucasus, or probably less likely, originated in situ. What I do know is that there's no definitive evidence for any of the hypotheses. Plus, it's way too long ago for me to care. If you haven't noticed, I post very little about the whole unending quest for the origin of the "REAL" Indo-Europeans and their langague. Frankly, it's starting to bore me to tears, but when an obviously poorly substantiated claim is made I'm not going to sit here and let newbies or whoever be misled. There's enough false information on the internet.

To repeat, wherever IJ split, I wound up in one area, J in another, and the "R" lineages somewhere else. The population which carried the CHG which wound up on the steppe carried Ydna "J". The massive spread of ancestry from western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions is incontrovertible. It's also incontrovertible that the difference between CHG and Iran Neo is extremely small. Are you or anyone else going to seriously propose that CHG is NORTHERN because of that small bit of minority ancestry?

That's what I try to do...follow the data as logically as humanly possible, and make reasoned deductions from it. When there's not enough data to come to a firm conclusion, I say so. When the data becomes available, I say so, and if that means admitting I was wrong, I do that too.

If I may blow my own horn a bit, my record so far is quite good, something which can't be claimed for the people whom you prefer to believe, but that's because I FOLLOW THE DATA. For goodness sakes, I've spent the majority of my working life making my living doing that; I'm not going to suddenly change the habits of a lifetime.

What you wrote is completely unsupported speculation which you pulled from the blog of a known Nordicist/Slavicist, whose funding is unknown. Regardless, if data someday is found which supports it, I'll happily change my mind.

I think that about covers it.

I have nothing further to say to you on the subject since you have no data to proffer or papers to cite.

Think what you want; true believers always do, because it's never about evidence and proof; it's about ideology.
 
And while we are at it (it being about mysteries),
I still have to figure out how the Kum6 girl vanished from the databases and references...

Se was H2a and even enough mutations to be considered H2a3. Now, even when she shows up, there is no reference to it


S3.2 Mitochondrial HaplogroupsWe called consensus sequences for the mitochondria of all samples using the mpileup and vcfutils.pl (vcf2fq) tools in thesamtools package with default parameters [S65]. Sequence polymorphisms are reported against RSRS [S66] and werephylogenetically analyzed using HaploFind [S67] and PhyloTree Build 16 [S68] to assign sequences to previouslyannotated haplogroups. The average mitochondrial genome coverage was 21x for Kum6 and 1.5x for Kum4. The Kum6mitochondrial genome has 39 mutations classifying it as haplogroup H2a (Table S3b). Twelve additional mutations werefound in the consensus sequence. One of these is G16274A, which together with T10810C, defines subhaplogroup H2a3.Therefore, Kum6 seems to be an ancestral lineage to H2a3 as it has acquired the defining transition at nucleotide position16274 but lacks the back mutation at nucleotide position 10810. Nine of the remaining additional mutations are supportedby only one or two reads and the majorities of them are unique and not present in PhyloTree. Further, eight of thesemutations are C to T or G to A transitions that can likely be attributed to post-mortem damage alterations [S69]. The lastadditional polymorphism, A6527G, may be a true mutation in Kum6 as it, like most of the 39 haplogroup definingmutations as well as the transitions at nucleotide position 10810 and nucleotide position 16274, is covered by >10 sequencereads.
Click to expand...
 
Angela said:
I don't give a darn either way, halfalp, just as it doesn't matter to me other than as a minor point of scientific interest whether the Anatolian languages moved from the steppe down through the Caucasus, or from the Balkans to the Caucasus, or probably less likely, originated in situ. What I do know is that there's no definitive evidence for any of the hypotheses. Plus, it's way too long ago for me to care. If you haven't noticed, I post very little about the whole unending quest for the origin of the "REAL" Indo-Europeans and their langague. Frankly, it's starting to bore me to tears, but when an obviously poorly substantiated claim is made I'm not going to sit here and let newbies or whoever be misled. There's enough false information on the internet.

To repeat, wherever IJ split, I wound up in one area, J in another, and the "R" lineages somewhere else. The population which carried the CHG which wound up on the steppe carried Ydna "J". The massive spread of ancestry from western/southwestern Anatolia and the Caucasus in all directions is incontrovertible. It's also incontrovertible that the difference between CHG and Iran Neo is extremely small. Are you or anyone else going to seriously propose that CHG is NORTHERN because of that small bit of minority ancestry?

That's what I try to do...follow the data as logically as humanly possible, and make reasoned deductions from it. When there's not enough data to come to a firm conclusion, I say so. When the data becomes available, I say so, and if that means admitting I was wrong, I do that too.

If I may blow my own horn a bit, my record so far is quite good, something which can't be claimed for the people whom you prefer to believe, but that's because I FOLLOW THE DATA. For goodness sakes, I've spent the majority of my working life making my living doing that; I'm not going to suddenly change the habits of a lifetime.

What you wrote is completely unsupported speculation which you pulled from the blog of a known Nordicist/Slavicist, whose funding is unknown. Regardless, if data someday is found which supports it, I'll happily change my mind.

I think that about covers it.

I have nothing further to say to you on the subject since you have no data to proffer or papers to cite.

Think what you want; true believers always do, because it's never about evidence and proof; it's about ideology.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about IE hypothesis. My point was that Lineage=/=Ancestry. And that J1 being 100% EHG in Eastern Europe, or R1b-V1636 being found without any EHG/Steppe ancestry are to be taking with the same argument. I'm actually not believing CHG came from Eastern Europe, but nothing support it came from South Caucasus neither, the junction point, wich is obviously near Caucasus are not found yet.

Why suddenly this R1b-V1636 sounds like it comes like a long waited relief for some people, when the rules it concerns, are the same everywhere else. We suddenly close the Caucasus road for no reason, no actual real scientific consensus but for convictions. When it should not be.

I still dont understand why you are Policing so hard, with strong words like Ideology, when we can't us, as lambda users, reply to this with arguments, because we get banned. No free speech and some lack of deontology right there.

And btw, why always citing Davidski or Carlos Quiles, that's not a good publicity to have all Anthrogenica, Eurogenes or anyone else always criticize, the karma can change fast.
 
Angela said:
So, the "Jewish" clade perhaps Iranic in origin, like their R1a? I wonder how much of it the Iraqi and Iranian Jews have? They're probably driving up the numbers in Israel.

So, as always, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and western Iran, but spreading at different times, clearly, given all the G2a among the early Anatolian farmers.

Then, probably, dribbles, and then this big push in the Bronze Age.

I looked at Greece and there's little info and what there is is in the low digits and not broken out, although there's 4% of the M406 version in the Sesklo area of Thessaly near where there are Mycenaean graves. What clade were the Mycenaeans?

They didn't break down Crete. I remember there was a lot of G2a there.

Well, the following isn't very helpful.
"A 2003 study of Italy had found 11.8% of 51 samples in Sicily; 8.1% of 37 samples in Calabria...and 10% of 50 samples in north central Italy were G."

They didn't bother to add the Grugni et al data:
[TABLE="width: 1279"]
[TR]
[TD]Haplogroup[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]TOTAL SAMPLE[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]North Italy[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Central Italy[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]South Italy[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Bergamo Valleys[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Bergamo Plain[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Tortona- Voghera[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Borbera Valley[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Volterra[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Apulia[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Grecìa Salentina[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Ionian Calabria[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Tyrrhenian Calabria[/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]817[/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]290[/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]113[/TD]
[TD]N =[/TD]
[TD]414[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]78[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]79[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]48[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]85[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]113[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]102[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]82[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]93[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]73[/TD]
[TD]N=[/TD]
[TD]64[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]Abs.[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 1279"]
[TR]
[TD]G-M201(xP15)[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P287*[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P15*[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P16[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-M547*[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-P303*[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-L497[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[TD]3.2[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]4.5[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7.0[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]12.9[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]7.1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-U1*[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-M527[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2.9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-M406*[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]1.9[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2.1[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]2.9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]4.1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]3.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-Page19[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]1.8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.4[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G-L91[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hg-G[/TD]
[TD]69[/TD]
[TD]8.4[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]6.6[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]13.3[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]8.5[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.6[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1.3[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]6.3[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]15.3[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]13.3[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]11.8[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]2.4[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]5.4[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]12.3[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]10.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
Yes, possibly around E. Anatolia, Armenia and W. Iran, but I don't know how it was spread few thousands of years later. As you suggested, it must have spread in different times/ways.
Anyway, as a side note, for the sake of precision, I'd say that diversity doesn"t necessarily "prove" the origin of the MRCA. It's a clue anyway. We could conclude that in theory this individual and his closer descendants lived in that zone or not far from it. For example, if the clade was well spread and diverse around all that area and then just shrank in some parts and not in others for whatever reasons, it could led us to "imprecisions". All that said, there are those who believe that G expanded from somewhere in (North) Fertile Crescent, but either way it'd not be that far from this zone proposed by Rootsi and Hovhannisyan. What I don't understand though is why it'd have arrived supposedly so late in S. Levant.
Finally, the hotspot of G1 diversity is not just in Iran. I missed the spot in what is now NE Turkey.

As for Iraqi Jews, apparently they have something as ~10% of G-M201, and Iranians would have virtually none. But you know that these %s may vary from study to study, depending on sampling.
It called my atention that G-M201 is uncommon in Morocco as a whole, but it'd not be uncommon among Moroccan Jews.
Yes, Crete and Cyprus have a relevant % of G-M201.
Concerning Mycenaeans, we have just one Y hg if I'm not mistaken, and it's J2a1. One Minoan was G2a, yes, but he was G-P303 (so not G-M406), while the other two were J2a1 (as the Mycenaean).

@halfalp
There is also a G1a from Chalco W. Iran, 6900-5800 years old.
 
Regio X said:
Yes, possibly around E. Anatolia, Armenia and W. Iran, but I don't know how it was spread few thousands of years later. As you said, it must have spread at different times.
Anyway, as a side note, for the sake of precision, I'd say that diversity doesn"t necessarily "prove" the origin of the MRCA. It's a clue anyway. We could conclude that in theory this individual and his closer descendants lived in that zone or not far from it. For example, if the clade was well spread and diverse around all that area and then just shrank in some parts and not in others for whatever reasons, it could led us to "imprecisions". All that said, there are those who believe that G expanded from somewhere in (North) Fertile Crescent, but either way it'd not be that far from this zone proposed by Rootsi and Hovhannisyan. What I don't understand though is why it'd have arrived supposedly so late in S. Levant.

Finally, the hotspot of G1 diversity is not just in Iran. I missed the spot in what is now NE Turkey.

As for Iraqi Jews, apparently they have something as ~10% of G-M201, and Iranians would have virtually none. But you know that these %s may vary from study to study, depending on sampling.

It called my atention that G-M201 is uncommon in Morocco as a whole, but it'd not be that uncommon among Moroccan Jews.
Yes, Crete and Cyprus have a relevant % of G-M201.
Concerning Mycenaeans, we have just one Y hg if I'm not mistaken, and it's J2a1. One Minoan was G2a, yes, but he was G-P303 (so not G-M406), while the other two were J2a1 (as the Mycenaean).

@halfalp
There is also a G1a from Chalco W. Iran, 6900-5800 years old.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Regio. Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the Minoan. As you can probably tell, I'm a bit distracted lately; lots going on in my life.

As to the late arrival in the Levant, I used to know quite a bit about the archaeology of the Near East, although it's fading now for lack of keeping up with it, but I have a vague recollection of climate change (dryness) between the Early and Middle Bronze Age, and then relative stability from Middle to Late Bronze Age. That "might", and I say "might" because I'd have to verify that. Perhaps pastoralists looking for more food for their herds?

Yes, the sampling data is all over the place. Grugni et al collected data from various papers, but came up with relatively low numbers for G2a2 clades in the center and south, quite a bit lower than Maciamo's map shows. The north down through Toscana seems a pretty clean sweep for L497 from that data, however.

Do you have the TMRCA of G-M406 to hand? I'm assuming Anatolia as origin, but there doesn't seem to be much there now.
 
Angela said:
Except that the J1 came from the north, and Caucasus fails as the mixing source.

Amazing, also, the presence of J1 on the Pontic Caspian steppe, a type of J1 related to Satsurbia in the Caucasus. I thought it was settled that only women from the south were allowed onto the steppe?
Click to expand...

I never said that. Men and women came to the steppe, both from the West (Neolithics) as well as from the South East (Caucasian HG and early Neolithics) but mostly female lineages survived after the steppe hunter clans took over and expanded from the Lower Don Culture horizon in all directions.
 
Angela said:
Thank you, Regio. Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the Minoan. As you can probably tell, I'm a bit distracted lately; lots going on in my life.

As to the late arrival in the Levant, I used to know quite a bit about the archaeology of the Near East, although it's fading now for lack of keeping up with it, but I have a vague recollection of climate change (dryness) between the Early and Middle Bronze Age, and then relative stability from Middle to Late Bronze Age. That "might", and I say "might" because I'd have to verify that. Perhaps pastoralists looking for more food for their herds?

Yes, the sampling data is all over the place. Grugni et al collected data from various papers, but came up with relatively low numbers for G2a2 clades in the center and south, quite a bit lower than Maciamo's map shows. The north down through Toscana seems a pretty clean sweep for L497 from that data, however.

Do you have the TMRCA of G-M406 to hand? I'm assuming Anatolia as origin, but there doesn't seem to be much there now.
Click to expand...
No problem at all. Hope you overcome these things that are going on, whatever they are. :)

Grugni included more than 800 samples. Nice.
I think all these regional variances in Italy make difficult to get more similar numbers in different studies or sources. Anyway, we can have an idea.
Central Italy would have a good amount of G-L497, indeed, with some interesting spots. Boattini et al., for example, could have found something close to 15% for G-L497 in Foligno, at least based on DYS388>=13, but just SNP tests could confirm it. In the case of Italy as a whole, my own impression is that this clade has a higher diversity in ~NW and a higher frequency in NE, which is in line with papers.

The TMRCA of G-M406 is 12500 ybp. It looks pretty possible it originated in East Anatolia. Let's see if ancient DNA helps on this.
As for Turkey, there must be different frequencies of G-M406 , naturally, depending on the area. The % of G-M201 in Turkey as a whole woud be ~11%, and supposedly half of them are G-M406, which roughly corresponds to an estimation of ~6% I saw somewhere for G-M406 in this country. There would be some interesting spots of G-M406 in Dagestan as well, among Chamalal and Lezgins - at 18 and 12% respectivelly -, and in other areas.
Interesting to notice the Turkish "diversity" when it comes to Y-DNA. The most frequent, J2, is up to 25% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Turkish_people):

Turkey_Y_chromosome%28in_20_haplogroups%29.png


HaplogroupdifferencesbetweenTurksandGreeks.jpg
 
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