European Civilization built ond Proto-Indo-European and Semitic foundations

[Tomenable]

Piotr Napierała (from "racjonalista.pl" / "rationalist.pl" website) asked why Catholic right-wing people don't behave like "good Christians", answered:

"The spirit of the right-wing lies in Knighthood [the Code of Chivalry], not in the Church [Christianity], which often followed the path of a kind of communism (monasticism), or revolutionism - 'abandon all of your property, give it to the poor (so they will be richer) and come wih me'."

I think Mr. Napierała nailed it.

But I would extend this point further by saying, that Knighthood has its roots in PIE traditions, while Christianity has its roots in Semitic traditions.

The European Civilization is based on a difficult balance of Indo-European (right-wing) values and Semitic (left-wing; or Judeo-Christian) values.

Would you agree with this ???

 

[Tomenable]

I wonder how would have Europe AD 2016 looked like, had the "Old Europe" (Neolithic folks) repulsed the PIE invasion and survived. Assuming that Indo-Europeans had failed and got extinct or marginalized, how would have the modern world looked like?

Edit: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32278-Alternative-History-Proto-Indo-Europeans-fail

 

[Rethel]

Would you agree with this ???

Absolutly not. This is to much flattered and twisted picture.

Piotr Napierała (from "racjonalista.pl" / "rationalist.pl" website) asked why Catholic right-wing people don't behave like "good Christians", answered:"The spirit of the right-wing lies in Knighthood [the Code of Chivalry], not in the Church [Christianity], which often followed the path of a kind of communism (monasticism), or revolutionism - 'abandon all of your property, give it to the poor (so they will be richer) and come wih me'."

I think Mr. Napierała nailed it.

No.
"Code of Chivalry" was based totally on christianity.
Before Christianity there was no Knighthood, neither code.

Yes, IEs were good soldiers, but there is no connection, only similarities.
Technical ones.

But I would extend this point further by saying, that Knighthood has its roots in PIE traditions, while Christianity has its roots in Semitic traditions.

As above.
Btw, Bible is much more warrior book, than any IE paper.

The European Civilization is based on a difficult balance of Indo-European (right-wing) values and Semitic (left-wing; or Judeo-Christian) values.

Christianity as left-wing... Picard.

 

[Maleth]

I wonder how would have Europe AD 2016 looked like, had the "Old Europe" (Neolithic folks) repulsed the PIE invasion and survived. Assuming that Indo-Europeans had failed and got extinct or marginalized, how would have the modern world looked like?

Edit: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/32278-Alternative-History-Proto-Indo-Europeans-fail

Old Europe was a great pre bronze age matriarchal culture. No weapons were found in the archaeological areas and neither the art did depict warfare. Marija Gimbutas suggested a theory that the Kurgans (a patriarchal society) from the north invaded the area violently but today its believed that the Kurgan invasion was more gradual and old Europe collapsed for other reasons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whfGbPFAy4w

 

[Rethel]

Old Europe was a great pre bronze age matriarchal culture.

Terrible...

No weapons were found in the archaeological areas and neither the art did depict warfare.

Myth.

Marija Gimbutas suggested a theory that the Kurgans (a patriarchal society) from the north invaded the area violently but today its believed that the Kurgan invasion

And this was a time, when progress began...

was more gradual and old Europe collapsed for other reasons

If it was such stupid culture, as you said, it had to collapse...

 

[Maleth]

Terrible...

Why was it Terrible?

Myth

It dosent seem like it as there is lots of evidence of this culture

And this was a time, when progress began...

Which kind of progress? I think the most pronounced marked progress was the introduction of the horse which facilitated covering larger distances in a shorter time, that is until the automobile was invented in the 1800's. As Metallurgy they seem to have been more advanced then the Kurgans.

If it was such stupid culture, as you said, it had to collapse...

Why was it stupid? .In reality the culture did not collapse, and probably there was a degree of assimilation. One common element was the veneration of a female deity in connection to Earth and fertility in combination with agriculture (I don't think that was stupid as the whole world is into it today. Do you?). You can still see a similar veneration today even through Christianity. The figure of the Virgin Mother (mother of Jesus) often depicted holding the child, It had been termed the mother of God, and while Patriarchal Middle eastern myths project as god talking through burning bushes and passing on messages, there is an old Europe continuation of a female deity (The Mother of God) that appears in caves and fields to pass on the messages.

At any rate this topic has been discussed a good number of times on this forum.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Old Europe was a great pre bronze age matriarchal culture. No weapons were found in the archaeological areas and neither the art did depict warfare. Marija Gimbutas suggested a theory that the Kurgans (a patriarchal society) from the north invaded the area violently but today its believed that the Kurgan invasion was more gradual and old Europe collapsed for other reasons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whfGbPFAy4w

That's a myth. Neolithic Europe was not a matriarchal utopia. Gimbutas made up that myth. Anyways I'm pretty convinced humans are a patriarchal species. It'll be hard to find any human population who is truly matriarchal. Leadership goes along with strength and capability for violence, both of which men have much more of than women. I'm not saying people have to follow a set guideline of gender roles, I'm just pointing out what's probably the biological reality of humanity and gender. Also, I get annoyed by feminist like Gimbutas.

 

[Fire Haired14]

@Tomenable,

You're reading too much into this. There's no Indo European or Semetic cultures. Modern cultures can't be explained as a simple mixture. The reasons we act the way we do has complicated reasons, beyond traditions passed down. Every generation has its own cultural traits that weren't passed down.

 

[APO276]

Why was it stupid? .In reality the culture did not collapse, and probably there was a degree of assimilation. One common element was the veneration of a female deity in connection to Earth and fertility in combination with agriculture (I don't think that was stupid as the whole world is into it today. Do you?). You can still see a similar veneration today even through Christianity. The figure of the Virgin Mother (mother of Jesus) often depicted holding the child, It had been termed the mother of God, and while Patriarchal Middle eastern myths project as god talking through burning bushes and passing on messages, there is an old Europe continuation of a female deity (The Mother of God) that appears in caves and fields to pass on the messages.

At any rate this topic has been discussed a good number of times on this forum.

And at least the Phrygians had as state deity practically the same mother Godess
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

Even Athens had a female deity as state deity although Athena wasn't a Mother Godess (She was associated with wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, war strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill). That's also interesting.

I don't think that the societes of Old Europe were matriarchal though.

 

[Maleth]

That's a myth. Neolithic Europe was not a matriarchal utopia.

Interesting and maybe possible, but what would be the finds in these archeological areas to proof it was not?. I guess for someone to propose that something is a myth has to be justified with some sort of evidence. No? What we know for sure is that there were hundreds of female figurines and statues excavated from these sites and also the temples of Malta. What would be the evidence for a counter theory. Just saying its a myth is not enough.

Anyways I'm pretty convinced humans are a patriarchal species. It'll be hard to find any human population who is truly matriarchal. Leadership goes along with strength and capability for violence, both of which men have much more of than women. I'm not saying people have to follow a set guideline of gender roles, I'm just pointing out what's probably the biological reality of humanity and gender. Also, I get annoyed by feminist like Gimbutas.

Of course I do not agree. Human population are / were not always under a state of war. One probably will find a long stretches of time when war was not necessary in many areas of the globe and only initiated mostly in time of environmental distress which would effect food production and water availability. That could also be a result of over population besides other factors besides the greed factor to make a particular state or domain richer by plunder or piracy, but it is not something done by default. A continuous war is only something from the fragment of ones imagination.

 

[Maleth]

And at least the Phrygians had as state deity practically the same mother Godess
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

Even Athens had a female deity as state deity although Athena wasn't a Mother Godess (She was associated with wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, mathematics, strength, war strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill). That's also interesting.

Indeed...also the Phoenicians had Astarte connected with Fertility and war and the Romans had a number of deities, not to mention the Etruscans

I don't think that the societes of Old Europe were matriarchal though.

However that is what the evidence suggest, until one can proof different one can make a strong argument against it.

 

[APO276]

The Greek equivalents of Cybele were Rhea (of Minoan origin) and Gaia. But also Demeter, who was one of the 12 gods was "a goddess of the harvest, who presided over grains and the fertility of the earth"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter

Also in my opinion the following proves that farming was important for Myceneans

It is possible that Demeter appears in Linear A as da-ma-te on three documents (AR Zf 1 and 2, and KY Za 2), all three apparently dedicated in religious situations and all three bearing just the name (i-da-ma-te on AR Zf 1 and 2).^[7] It is unlikely that Demeter appears as da-ma-te in a Linear B (Mycenean Greek) inscription (PY En 609); the word, da-ma-te, probably refers to "households".^[8][9] On the other hand,, si-to-po-ti-ni-ja, "Potnia of the Grain", is regarded as referring to her Bronze Age predecessor or to one of her epithets.^[10]

^{If they were not farmers why did they have a "Lady of the Grain" as a deity?}

 

[Maleth]

The Greek equivalents of Cybele were Rhea (of Minoan origin) and Gaia. But also Demeter, who was one of the 12 gods was "a goddess of the harvest, who presided over grains and the fertility of the earth"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demeter

Also in my opinion the following proves that farming was important for Myceneans


^{If they were not farmers why did they have a "Lady of the Grain" as a deity?}

It seems to me there is a correlation with agriculture / more food availability which brought about sedentary kind of lifestyle, population growth, therefore a higher focus on construction a greater appreciation towards the season and the cycle of the sun and a focus on fertility on a spiritual level with women playing a major role in the affairs of these societies.

 

[LeBrok]

@Tomenable,

You're reading too much into this. There's no Indo European or Semetic cultures. Modern cultures can't be explained as a simple mixture. The reasons we act the way we do has complicated reasons, beyond traditions passed down. Every generation has its own cultural traits that weren't passed down.

It is a mixture. Same as we are genetic mixture we are also cultural mixture. For example Christmas is ideologically Christian, but it's timing, 25th of December, and gift giving was taken from Latin Thanksgiving, which was the biggest Roman holiday. Christmas tree is rather a modern invention, or perhaps roots from germanic pagan culture.

 

[LeBrok]

Piotr Napierała (from "racjonalista.pl" / "rationalist.pl" website) asked why Catholic right-wing people don't behave like "good Christians", answered:

"The spirit of the right-wing lies in Knighthood [the Code of Chivalry], not in the Church [Christianity], which often followed the path of a kind of communism (monasticism), or revolutionism - 'abandon all of your property, give it to the poor (so they will be richer) and come wih me'."

I think Mr. Napierała nailed it.

But I would extend this point further by saying, that Knighthood has its roots in PIE traditions, while Christianity has its roots in Semitic traditions.

The European Civilization is based on a difficult balance of Indo-European (right-wing) values and Semitic (left-wing; or Judeo-Christian) values.

Would you agree with this ???

I agree, at least in it's core and conception Christianity, or Christ himself, intended it as peaceful-global movement, almost communist like (equal sharing, equal rights, love your neighbor). Don't confuse it with dictatorial tyranny of modern communism.
IE, very warrior like, aggressive, invasive, dominant, tyrannical, entrepreneurial, profiteering. Is this why Northern Europe is better in capitalism?

But I don't think conservatism and liberalism has anything to do with it. For example, conservatism is very transcultural, and it describes people who don't like changes. They usually think that the world they grew up in (religion, tradition, fashion, food, music) is and was the best. Usually they are scared of new things, new ideas, different cultures, even of differently dressed and looking people. Sign of a very strong primal tribal instinct (protect my tribe, kill the stranger). I think it is a genetic trait mostly.

Most Trump's and Sanders' voters are conservative in nature. Not conservative or liberal as party affiliate, but naturally conservative. Yes, there are conservative communists too, lol.

 

[Angela]

Indeed...also the Phoenicians had Astarte connected with Fertility and war and the Romans had a number of deities, not to mention the Etruscans



However that is what the evidence suggest, until one can proof different one can make a strong argument against it.

What a great video, Maleth.

As you said, we've discussed these topics before, and not only did the genes of Old Europe survive, but the culture did to a certain extent as well.

Was it a full fledged matriarchy? I don't know, but the evidence is indeed suggestive that female goddesses and thus probably priestesses had more "status" or more power certainly than in the extreme patriarchy not only of Indo-European societies but of Semitic societies as well. Neolithic and Bronze Age Canaan was a very different place from the Israel of the Bronze and Iron Ages, and more different yet from the Arabic cultures from which Islam sprang.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Old Europe was totally peace loving because women had more of a role. Look at the Iroquois of the New World.
http://www.vaniercollege.qc.ca/tlc/publications/native-circle/native-circle-2003/ashley-thomas3.pdf

However, everything I know about gender differences would lead me to suspect women might have been a break on excessive violence.

As for Christianity, it's an amalgam between the mother centered religions and myths of the West Eurasian agricultural world and the actually more Indo-European like and patriarchal traditional views of Judaism. Both the Indo-Europeans and the Semites were pastoralists. That, I think, is the difference: agriculture on the one side, and long distance pastoralism on the other (not transhumanism).

All the protestations of Jesus aside, Christianity is indeed a break with Judaic tradition in many ways, a tradition exemplified in the New Testament by the Pharisees.

There's still no consensus, so far as I can tell, as to precisely when, how, or from where the chivalric tradition arose. In the 19th century, the epicenter of idolization of everything Germanic, "scholars" sourced it in Germanic medieval traditions as tempered by the Roman Catholic Church. When I was in university all the new scholarship based on newly discovered materials showed that while that might have been part of the story, a lot of the influence was actually before that time, and came from the Moors through Spain. That's particularly true for the whole veneration of women, courtly love portion of chivalry. Times have certainly changed, haven't they?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry

 

[bicicleur 2]

I guess honour and being thrustworthy was an important IE virtue.
But shivalry was invented by the romanicists of the early 19th century, allthough they may have found some inspiration from code of the templars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

 

[arvistro]

Christmas tree tradition comes from Livonia. We are fighting Estonians on whether Riga or Tallin was the first.

 

[Yetos]

female deities or Mothers

the oldest I know,
surely not IE, found at χαιρωνια and κυκλαδες




then we have minoan/Cretan
one of the most beautyfull sculpture i know
the female deity of the snakes
or a female ZEYS

also from Crete godess Δικτυννα
non IE godess that appears at male teenagers etc etc
also known as Αφαια Αθηνα or ΛΗΜΝΙΑ (lemnean)
Δικτυννα might also worshiped at Athens since the known sshape of godess Athena is simmilar to Δικτυννα

hekata Εκατη

NOTICE THAT THIS IS THE OLDEST KNOWN FORM OF A TRIADIC (three faces) FEMALE DEITY



Αλσο ΑΞΙΕΡΟΣ of Cabeirian


possibly pre IE deitys, not certain,
Ειλειθυια Ilithyia godess
ΚΙΔΑΡΕΙΑ kidareia/cidareia

 

[Maleth]

What a great video, Maleth.

I am glad you enjoyed it.

As you said, we've discussed these topics before, and not only did the genes of Old Europe survive, but the culture did to a certain extent as well.

Was it a full fledged matriarchy? I don't know, but the evidence is indeed suggestive that female goddesses and thus probably priestesses had more "status" or more power certainly than in the extreme patriarchy not only of Indo-European societies but of Semitic societies as well. Neolithic and Bronze Age Canaan was a very different place from the Israel of the Bronze and Iron Ages, and more different yet from the Arabic cultures from which Islam sprang.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Old Europe was totally peace loving because women had more of a role. Look at the Iroquois of the New World.
http://www.vaniercollege.qc.ca/tlc/publications/native-circle/native-circle-2003/ashley-thomas3.pdf

However, everything I know about gender differences would lead me to suspect women might have been a break on excessive violence.

As for Christianity, it's an amalgam between the mother centered religions and myths of the West Eurasian agricultural world and the actually more Indo-European like and patriarchal traditional views of Judaism. Both the Indo-Europeans and the Semites were pastoralists. That, I think, is the difference: agriculture on the one side, and long distance pastoralism on the other (not transhumanism).

All the protestations of Jesus aside, Christianity is indeed a break with Judaic tradition in many ways, a tradition exemplified in the New Testament by the Pharisees.

There's still no consensus, so far as I can tell, as to precisely when, how, or from where the chivalric tradition arose. In the 19th century, the epicenter of idolization of everything Germanic, "scholars" sourced it in Germanic medieval traditions as tempered by the Roman Catholic Church. When I was in university all the new scholarship based on newly discovered materials showed that while that might have been part of the story, a lot of the influence was actually before that time, and came from the Moors through Spain. That's particularly true for the whole veneration of women, courtly love portion of chivalry. Times have certainly changed, haven't they?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry

As usual a very factual post