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ETRUSCANS FROM ANATOLIA

Makes you wonder how much research in archeogenetics has been fabricated or tainted. After I saw the new depiction of Ötzi (courtesy of Johannes Krause and pals), it became clear to me that these aren't scientists but people with college degrees who can be hired for any agenda. We now have "experts" talking about black Vikings and Anglo-Saxons.

I wish to reemphasise the distinction between a neolithic Anatolian origin and what is understood as Eastern Mediterranean in a much later, recorded history. We obviously agree that the Etruscans were not "late" migrants who arrived around 1000 BCE. Both the Etruscans and Rhaetians settled too far in the north to be newcomers from the Eastern Mediterranean. Geographically, the argument can be certainly made that they were closer to the Rhaetians linguistically than to the Lemnians but all three languages are considered to be part of the hypothetical Tyrsenian language family. In any case, they are Paleo-European languages and have been present in Europe for much longer than 1000 BCE.
I know I 'll irritate someones but I'll resume some B.Sergent points (even if I found them sometime rather weak) -
in inclined symbols, my personal guesses -
It’s true that some cultural arguments are not decisive - the direction of tranferts can be reversed in a lot of them– I ‘ve personally some defiance concerning religious / rites similarities, except maybe for buryings – someones are so universal -

& : The age of a work doesn’t disqualifies it, if the very matter treated in it has not received new undebated debunkings -


Proto-Villanovan : considered by a lot of people as the preceding stage of Villanovan – All the way a cremating culture with tight ties with Urnfields people of Central Europe – the apparition of cremation was brutal enough in Venetia and Emila (heavy demic introgression?) when it was more gradual in Pô Valley, especially north the river among first Terramare people – as a guess I’m tempted to think Terramare had been kind of Ligurian people before acculturation from East/Northeast. I’m tempted too to think the proto-Villanovans were first Italic speakers, Qw- or P- ones, or both

What B.Sergent said is that Proto-Villanovan they settled allover Italy, even if they were denser in Central North – allover Italy where for the most, from North to South, Indo-European languages were spoken -
Sergent pretends the change in the buryings, in the occupation of the ground, in the style of buildings, of urbanism, has been swift at Villanovan II. Even more clearly about new style of tombs, without intermediary. ???
B. Sergent insists also on the maritime skills of Etruscans and their first coastal settlements having preceded more inland settlements.
Linguistic : some links with Anatolia and Caucasus – not only nouns but declinations paralleles to the Anatolian languages often Luwitic (it isn’t my ground of knowledge here), in morphology, in nouns, verbes, adjectives too, but not often concerning trade stuffs, here with links to Hittite, Luwian, Lycian – some alignments are not evident but as a whole, it’s rather acceptable –
He insist too on the fact they were looked at as very strange people by Italy neighbours of their time
on another side, the alignments with the Caucasian languages are very less convincing, I find That said, these linguistic links (some of remote origin, other by contacts > borrowings) with western Anatolia of a not too precise time, even accepted (Etruscan is not a so well understood tongue), are not the 100 % warrant of a maritime route for Etruscans ancestors – -

Just for the fun -
aqestion for Pax Augusta and evryone interested here:
Could you indicate me how many genomic survey have been publied on Etruscans todate?
 
I know I 'll irritate someones but I'll resume some B.Sergent points (even if I found them sometime rather weak) -
in inclined symbols, my personal guesses -
It’s true that some cultural arguments are not decisive - the direction of tranferts can be reversed in a lot of them– I ‘ve personally some defiance concerning religious / rites similarities, except maybe for buryings – someones are so universal -

& : The age of a work doesn’t disqualifies it, if the very matter treated in it has not received new undebated debunkings -


Proto-Villanovan : considered by a lot of people as the preceding stage of Villanovan – All the way a cremating culture with tight ties with Urnfields people of Central Europe – the apparition of cremation was brutal enough in Venetia and Emila (heavy demic introgression?) when it was more gradual in Pô Valley, especially north the river among first Terramare people – as a guess I’m tempted to think Terramare had been kind of Ligurian people before acculturation from East/Northeast. I’m tempted too to think the proto-Villanovans were first Italic speakers, Qw- or P- ones, or both

What B.Sergent said is that Proto-Villanovan they settled allover Italy, even if they were denser in Central North – allover Italy where for the most, from North to South, Indo-European languages were spoken -
Sergent pretends the change in the buryings, in the occupation of the ground, in the style of buildings, of urbanism, has been swift at Villanovan II. Even more clearly about new style of tombs, without intermediary. ???
B. Sergent insists also on the maritime skills of Etruscans and their first coastal settlements having preceded more inland settlements.
Linguistic : some links with Anatolia and Caucasus – not only nouns but declinations paralleles to the Anatolian languages often Luwitic (it isn’t my ground of knowledge here), in morphology, in nouns, verbes, adjectives too, but not often concerning trade stuffs, here with links to Hittite, Luwian, Lycian – some alignments are not evident but as a whole, it’s rather acceptable –
He insist too on the fact they were looked at as very strange people by Italy neighbours of their time
on another side, the alignments with the Caucasian languages are very less convincing, I find That said, these linguistic links (some of remote origin, other by contacts > borrowings) with western Anatolia of a not too precise time, even accepted (Etruscan is not a so well understood tongue), are not the 100 % warrant of a maritime route for Etruscans ancestors – -

Moesan, are you aware that you have posted the same post at least five times?

The problem isn't so much the intrinsic irritation of the content, but rather the fact that Bernard Sergent's entire body of work represents a colossal waste of time. It's precisely this loss of time that proves exasperating. In your message, it's often impossible to distinguish the thoughts attributed to Sergent from your own personal reflections: the text is confused and difficult to read. Be that as it may, the entire post rests on pure conjectures, devoid of any concrete evidence, a method that would make any serious archaeologist shudder. Claiming that the Terramare culture is proto-Ligurian is an unprovable hypothesis lacking any academic consensus.

The structural flaw in all of Sergent's work lies in its 19th-century approach: the illusion that a single scholar, isolated from confrontation with other experts, can resolve complex issues is a narcissistic, anachronistic, and anti-scientific attitude. To this is added a systematic cherry-picking of sources, which distorts the perspective.

The paragraph on Proto-Villanovian is incomprehensible. It is not clear what it is supposed to prove. But given the lack of accuracy throughout Sergent's book, this is hardly surprising.

There is no consensus on the alleged link between Etruscan and Luwian, an Anatolian Indo-European language, with affinities not only lexical (in nouns) but also morphological (in inflections, parallel to Anatolian languages for verbs and adjectives). So what are we talking about, then? Utter madness, since Sergent in his book takes as established premises that have never been demonstrated. If the foundations collapse, how can the conclusions be validated?

And speaking of which: recently, a work has come out that completely dismantles the connection between Etruscan and Anatolian languages through lexical loans. Has Sergent, too absorbed in his own bubble, noticed? It's Zsolt Simon, "The Alleged Anatolian Loanwords in Etruscan: A Reconsideration", in Federico Giusfredi and Zsolt Simon (eds.), Studies in the Languages and Language Contact in Pre-Hellenistic Anatolia (Barcino Monographica Orientalia 17), Universitat de Barcelona, 2021, pp. 227–242. Simon reviews the proposed etymologies (from Beekes to Melchert), revealing their methodological flaws and the absence of solid comparative evidence, and concludes that there is no credible proof of Anatolian loans in Etruscan. A clear-cut rejection that strengthens the minority (and fringe) position of those like Sergent who insist on such links. If there are no loans, let alone everything else.

That's how Simon concludes—will you warn Sergent?

In other words, the alleged evidence for loan contacts between Etruscan and the Anatolian languages consists of cases in which we cannot exclude the possibility that their similarity is mere coincidence. Accordingly, one has to conclude that Anatolian loanwords can currently not be demonstrated in Etruscan. Finally, this claim has serious historical consequences, since the theory of the Anatolian origin of the Etruscan language has lost the only compelling argument in its favour, thus solving the only serious problem of the autochthony theory.




Just for the fun -
aqestion for Pax Augusta and evryone interested here:
Could you indicate me how many genomic survey have been publied on Etruscans todate?

If you include the 2023 doctoral thesis on the necropolises of Bologna and its surroundings, the number of Etruscans analyzed now exceeds one hundred. And don't tell me that's not many, because that would mean that in all these years you've understood very little about how archaeogenetic studies work.
 
I thought this was a settled matter already. The fact we also have some better survival of Y-DNA G2a in the Alps, increases the likelihood of Rhaetians being strong in G2a and Proto-Etruscans being heavily G2a before mixing with R1b Italics to give rise to historical Etruscans.

Archaeologically we also see strong Urnfield influence on material culture, on top of the native Italian culture. If the Etruscans came from somewhere else during Late Bronze Age then i bet my money they entered from the north, maybe Eastern Alps where they had influence or were part themselves of Middle Danubian Urnfield Complex.

There's nothing new in Sergent's work. In the 1980s, he was in favor of an Eastern origin, and now, 40 years later, he insists on it, as if he had been in a coma for 40 years.

Sergent's work will not shift the academic debate on the Etruscans by one millimeter, because it does not bring any new arguments to the table. On the contrary, it will encourage the spread of amateur, conspiracy-theory, and pseudoscientific studies on the Etruscans, based on the idea that scholars are hiding something and do not want to admit that the Etruscans still have mysterious origins (because mysterious origins allow the most absurd theories about the Etruscans to flourish).
 
Makes you wonder how much research in archeogenetics has been fabricated or tainted. After I saw the new depiction of Ötzi (courtesy of Johannes Krause and pals), it became clear to me that these aren't scientists but people with college degrees who can be hired for any agenda. We now have "experts" talking about black Vikings and Anglo-Saxons.

Fabricated or bogus studies have always existed in every discipline: history, archaeology, linguistics... The study of ancient history has always been the object of interests and agendas that have nothing to do with a love for the truth. Even today, for example, studies in Indo-European linguistics, particularly the linguistic ones, are steeped in 19th-century propaganda.

These are all topics that touch on identity, and they are used in both directions—both for right-wing propaganda and left-wing propaganda. Archaeogenetics studies have undoubtedly improved the level of genetic studies when it comes to ancient history. For decades, genetic studies were published that did not rely on ancient DNA but still claimed to reconstruct migratory movements that occurred thousands of years ago without providing any proof. These studies were a disaster because they were often based on circular arguments and sought to find in modern samples exactly what the geneticists wanted to prove. A famous case was that of the Lebanese biologist who claimed, without any proof, that every J2 found in Europe was a signal of Phoenician migratory movements, because J2 was a typically Phoenician marker. From ancient DNA analysis, we now know that's not the case. The analysis of ancient DNA has no doubt improved the accuracy of the studies. Obviously, this does not mean they have become infallible or that there is no propaganda even among archaeogeneticists.

In the specific case of Ötzi, I assume you're talking about the study by Ke Wang et al. (2023). That study's conclusions about Ötzi state that phenotypic analysis showed that Ötzi probably had darker skin than people living in Europe today and carried risk alleles linked to male-pattern baldness, type 2 diabetes, and obesity-related metabolic syndrome. But if you look closely at the study, these conclusions are based on statistical probability calculations; there's no real certainty that it's definitely true. The study provides few explanations in the supplementary information on how it arrived at these conclusions. And then there's the problem that these conclusions contradict all previous studies, according to which the Neolithic/Chalcolithic population of Europe had lighter pigmentation than that of the Mesolithic. So if Ötzi had dark skin like those of the Mesolithic, he was probably an outlier, not the average.

The problem becomes bigger when this study is picked up by newspapers, websites, and so on, and the findings are presented as if they were definite facts rather than just probability estimates. So, the conditional tense should be used, since there's no solid proof. It's essentially an overinterpretation of the genetic data, likely not just for political reasons but also because genetic studies often get wrapped up in sensationalism. It's a mix of politics and marketing that tries to convince people the study made groundbreaking discoveries.


I wish to reemphasise the distinction between a neolithic Anatolian origin and what is understood as Eastern Mediterranean in a much later, recorded history. We obviously agree that the Etruscans were not "late" migrants who arrived around 1000 BCE. Both the Etruscans and Rhaetians settled too far in the north to be newcomers from the Eastern Mediterranean. Geographically, the argument can be certainly made that they were closer to the Rhaetians linguistically than to the Lemnians but all three languages are considered to be part of the hypothetical Tyrsenian language family. In any case, they are Paleo-European languages and have been present in Europe for much longer than 1000 BCE.


The main problem here is that even today, many researchers still fail to clearly distinguish between a Neolithic migration from Anatolia and a later migration from the Aegean-Anatolian area, which occurred at the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age. Greek accounts of the Etruscans’ origins only begin to appear around 400 BCE: before that date, there is not a single Greek text mentioning an allochthonous origin of the Etruscans. These accounts describe a migration precisely in that period, the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age, and they have no connection whatsoever with the Neolithic movements, of which the Greeks were unlikely to have any knowledge. Among specialists of Etruscan civilization, there is broad consensus that these Greek stories were invented traditions, created ad hoc in that period. They reflect the Greek mentality of the time, rooted in the classical myth of foundation, and are based on the intense cultural exchanges of the age rather than on actual historical facts. In these accounts, two main versions emerge: one locating the Etruscans’ origin in Lydia, and another in Thessaly (though, for reasons that remain unclear, only the first version achieved lasting popularity).

We know that this was a time of intense contact between the Etruscan world, the Greek-Aegean world, and the Anatolian sphere, which by then was largely Hellenized. In Etruria, especially in the southern area (corresponding roughly to northern Latium), many Greek-Ionian artists and merchants were active, most of them originally from Anatolian Ionia, with possible experience in Lydia, Lycia, and other Anatolian regions. At the same time, some Etruscan groups maintained a thesauros (treasury) at Delphi in Greece. It is therefore by no means implausible, and this hypothesis is supported by several foreign archaeologists, that alongside the movements from the Aegean toward Italy (such as the well-known Greek colonization of southern Italy), there were also small reverse flows, from Italy toward the Aegean.

The famous Lemnos stele, discovered in 1885, long influenced the debate on Etruscan origins, initially appearing as the definitive proof of an Aegean origin. Italian archaeologists began excavations on the island in 1923, now over a century ago, specifically in search of evidence confirming this supposed eastern origin. Yet after a hundred years of research, nothing has been found on Lemnos to archaeologically connect the island with Etruria, nor in Etruria anything that links it to Lemnos. The language attested there is called “Lemnian,” after the island’s name, not after an ethnic group: there was no “people of the Lemnians,” and these inscriptions are not tied to any distinctive material culture.

Over time, the eastern hypothesis has steadily weakened. How could an Aegean population, large enough to impose a foreign language on two distinct populations living in a huge area stretching from the Alps to central Italy, have migrated to Italy without leaving any archaeological and genetic traces? Etruscologists have debated this for over eighty years; it is not as if they embraced Etruscan autochthony over a couple of aperitifs. Since the 1980s, Italian archaeologists specializing in Prehistory and Protohistory have also engaged with the issue, and after decades of excavation they have concluded that there is no archaeological evidence of an Aegean migration to Etruria of the kind described by ancient Greek authors. And since 2019, we know that archaeogenetic data also supports these conclusions.

It is also worth recalling that no known Anatolian language shows any clear relation to Etruscan, nor is there any archaeological evidence in Anatolia of a specific archeological link with Etruria that might suggest direct migrations. Meanwhile, among linguists, a consensus has grown: Etruscan is not only related to the language of the Lemnos inscriptions, but also to Rhaetic, spoken in the Alps by an archaeologically documented population, mentioned in ancient sources and bearing a known ethnonym. The Rhaetic culture is pre-urban and indicates neither a derivation of the Rhaetians from the Etruscans nor the reverse. Any possible connection between the two populations, if it existed, must date back long before the end of the Bronze Age. It is also worth noting that no archaeological evidence of Aegean contact has ever been found at Rhaetic sites so far.

Those who have resisted the hypothesis of Etruscan autochthony have mainly been scholars who were not specialists in Etruscan civilization (that is, Etruria was not their primary field of research). Excluding amateurs and hobbyists, they typically come from two disciplines: Indo-European studies and Oriental studies. The most prominent among them is Robert Beekes, a Dutch linguist and expert in Indo-European studies, who devoted considerable attention to the pre-Greek substrate and later to the question of Etruscan origins. Beekes harshly attacked archaeologists, accusing them of nationalist bias, an unfounded charge, since anyone familiar with the roots of Italian nationalism knows that it is grounded in Roman, not Etruscan, civilization. Nevertheless, this accusation proved useful for poisoning the debate, discrediting archaeologists (especially Italian ones), and spreading among the general public the idea of a conspiracy orchestrated by an Italian archaeological “mafia” to conceal the truth.

To support the Herodotean narrative of an eastern origin, Beekes produced a series of papers that resemble fantasy more than rigorous scholarship. His students and colleagues at Dutch universities have periodically recycled his thesis, occasionally modifying minor details. None of these works has ever gained real credibility outside their academic bubble, yet their viral diffusion on the internet has sustained the illusion that the debate on Etruscan origins remains open and heated. Indeed, even today, social media abounds with absurd theories: that the Etruscans were Sardinians, Albanians, Romanians, Russians, Turks, Hungarians, Serbs, and so on.

In this debate emerges Bernard Sergent, who had already argued for an Eastern origin of the Etruscans in a book from the 1990s devoted, quite tellingly, to the Indo-Europeans. The paradoxical irony lies in the fact that the Indo-European Anatolian world is used to “prove” the Eastern/Oriental and exotic nature of the Etruscans, while Indo-European studies themselves were one of the main ideological engines behind the very concept of the “West.”

Today, thanks to archaeogenetic analyses, we know that such ideas are overly simplistic, relics of an outdated Indo-Europeanist framework. From a scholarly and methodological standpoint, Sergent’s book is rather weak, gives credibility to essays and books that lack any scholarly consensus, and much more could be said about it. It is enough to note that the book opens with a quotation from the French geographer and historian Vincent Capdepuy:

“Les migrations, c’est toute l’histoire humaine.” (“Migrations are the whole of human history.”)

The quote comes from a critique of “fixist” history curricula, published in Le Monde on October 30, 2018, under the title “Programmes d’histoire, une misère intellectuelle.” Sergent thus seems to project onto the question of Etruscan origins what are, in fact, broader cultural and political reflections on French educational programs.

Once again, the question of the Etruscans’ origins is used as an ideological tool, a pretext for other purposes.
 
In the specific case of Ötzi, I assume you're talking about the study by Ke Wang et al. (2023). That study's conclusions about Ötzi state that phenotypic analysis showed that Ötzi probably had darker skin than people living in Europe today and carried risk alleles linked to male-pattern baldness, type 2 diabetes, and obesity-related metabolic syndrome. But if you look closely at the study, these conclusions are based on statistical probability calculations; there's no real certainty that it's definitely true. The study provides few explanations in the supplementary information on how it arrived at these conclusions. And then there's the problem that these conclusions contradict all previous studies, according to which the Neolithic/Chalcolithic population of Europe had lighter pigmentation than that of the Mesolithic. So if Ötzi had dark skin like those of the Mesolithic, he was probably an outlier, not the average.

The problem becomes bigger when this study is picked up by newspapers, websites, and so on, and the findings are presented as if they were definite facts rather than just probability estimates. So, the conditional tense should be used, since there's no solid proof. It's essentially an overinterpretation of the genetic data, likely not just for political reasons but also because genetic studies often get wrapped up in sensationalism. It's a mix of politics and marketing that tries to convince people the study made groundbreaking discoveries.

Yes, I'm talking about Ke Wang et al. (2023). It is the study that was cited by Johannes Krause in one of his lectures that I saw last year. Even if Ötzi had darker skin than modern Europeans, which wouldn't be all too surprising, he certainly didn't look they way Wang and Krause (mis)represented him. Unfortunately, these distortions are not just the work of a sensationalist press: https://www.eva.mpg.de/de/presse/aktuelles/artikel/oetzi-dunkle-haut-glatze-anatolische-vorfahren/

You can see the picture on the official website of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. There is absolutely no way that Ötzi or your average neolithic European looked like that. Not even a mesolithic European. You already mentioned the basic shortcomings of the Wang paper. Another bizarre detail I remember from the Krause lecture is how he depicted mesolithic Europeans. Now he didn't claim that this is what they looked like but he used the picture of a sub-Saharan African child with blue eyes as a "visual metaphor."

I totally agree with everything you wrote on the topic of Etruscan origins. The only eastern component goes back to the "orientalisation" era which stands for the intense cultural contacts and influences emanating from the Greek world. That's not the same as mass migration from the Eastern Mediterranean.
 
Yes, I'm talking about Ke Wang et al. (2023). It is the study that was cited by Johannes Krause in one of his lectures that I saw last year. Even if Ötzi had darker skin than modern Europeans, which wouldn't be all too surprising, he certainly didn't look they way Wang and Krause (mis)represented him. Unfortunately, these distortions are not just the work of a sensationalist press: https://www.eva.mpg.de/de/presse/aktuelles/artikel/oetzi-dunkle-haut-glatze-anatolische-vorfahren/

You can see the picture on the official website of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. There is absolutely no way that Ötzi or your average neolithic European looked like that. Not even a mesolithic European. You already mentioned the basic shortcomings of the Wang paper. Another bizarre detail I remember from the Krause lecture is how he depicted mesolithic Europeans. Now he didn't claim that this is what they looked like but he used the picture of a sub-Saharan African child with blue eyes as a "visual metaphor."


If you notice in the address, it says "presse". That is the part of the site managed by the Max Planck press office. I'm not saying that the archaeogeneticists weren't aware of this reconstruction, but it is indeed a reconstruction (and like all reconstructions, it's not objective) meant to feed the press outlets. Typically, there are always some exaggerations that go beyond the actual peer-reviewed paper.

I remember that on the occasion of the 2019 Stanford paper on ancient Rome coming out, a Roman university that had collaborated released a press statement in which it talked about Ukrainian, Iranian, and Turkish ethnic groups in ancient Rome, confusing the ancestral components. Steppe-related ancestry, Iran_N, and EEF/ANF with modern ethnicities. Thanks to this press statement, Italian newspapers and websites published articles that seem comical, with Romulus and Remus having become Ukrainian, Iranian, and Turkish. Just sloppiness or also bad faith? Maybe both.


I totally agree with everything you wrote on the topic of Etruscan origins. The only eastern component goes back to the "orientalisation" era which stands for the intense cultural contacts and influences emanating from the Greek world. That's not the same as mass migration from the Eastern Mediterranean.

The Orientalizing style is more of a cultural phenomenon than a component, and it was not only widespread among the Etruscans but also found among the Greeks, both those of Hellas and southern Italy, in some Italic civilizations (Latins, Picentes, etc.) and even on the Iberian Peninsula. Archaeologists have provided various explanations, and no one today believes that Orientalizing in the Etruscans is proof that Herodotus was right. This is also because Orientalizing has nothing to do with the Lydians or Anatolia in general. Of course, some linguist and other scholars, such as Sergent, periodically revive the fairy tale of the Lydian origin of the Etruscans, and some even add the Trojan origin, the quintessential fairy tale, since imagination is free and the average reader believes fairy tales more than objective truth, especially archaeological truth.

The Etruscans also had other contacts with the East. For example, liver divination comes precisely from the Orient; it's not native. But today the debate is no longer about the origins of the Etruscans, but rather about reconstructing the phylogenetic tree of the so-called Tyrrhenian languages. The debate has advanced considerably, and there's now a clear trend toward aligning the linguistic data with the archaeological and archaeogenetic data. That is, until the Sergents of the moment come along and drag it back 80 years.
 
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