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Early contact between late farming and pastoralist societies in southeastern Europe

Jovialis said:
Not a bad fit for such an old sample:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Jovialis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]5.91948477[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:KTL005_58.48%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DAFF00, align: right"]6.41035100[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:KTL002_50.84%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]9.59855197[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:MAJ020_62.08%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7A00, align: right"]11.41673333[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:KTL004_71.12%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0E00, align: right"]14.58788538[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:MAJ008_19.12%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0500, align: right"]14.84138808[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:MAJ009_32.27%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000D, align: right"]15.38728696[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:UBK003_35.64%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0046, align: right"]17.07214398[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:MAJ003_73.45%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0057, align: right"]17.56766632[/TD]
[TD]RO_Chalcolithic:PIE042_5.44%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.78630653[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN038_48.81%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006F, align: right"]18.25817351[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR011_57.72%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0076, align: right"]18.46842711[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:MAJ002_76.41%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0083, align: right"]18.84856758[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN042_60.50%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0091, align: right"]19.25772832[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:USV005_76.04%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00A5, align: right"]19.85014358[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR006_28.85%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00AB, align: right"]20.03680114[/TD]
[TD]RO_Chalcolithic:PIE012_38.13%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00AD, align: right"]20.08651289[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN045_30.53%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B9, align: right"]20.43620317[/TD]
[TD]RO_Chalcolithic:PIE008_56.00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BA, align: right"]20.45805954[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:KTL008_20.12%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BF, align: right"]20.61408257[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Chalcolithic:PTK001_36.35%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C2, align: right"]20.71007726[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:USV004_36.45%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C4, align: right"]20.76487900[/TD]
[TD]BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR004_42.73%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C8, align: right"]20.88990665[/TD]
[TD]RO_Chalcolithic:PIE026_10.18%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C9, align: right"]20.91945745[/TD]
[TD]RO_Chalcolithic:PIE069_23.05%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CE, align: right"]21.05321116[/TD]
[TD]UKR_Eneolithic:UBK006_43.09%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

My results:

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]8.81738623[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN042[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]9.39309853[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN038[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.12150186[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN039[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.33262793[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN037[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.35595481[/TD]
[TD]Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.45967017[/TD]
[TD]Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]10.75454323[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.60590367[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN045[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.82146353[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN034[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]11.93328538[/TD]
[TD]Gumelnița_EBA:PIE078[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]12.67782710[/TD]
[TD]Varna_ChL:VAR011[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.05134476[/TD]
[TD]Karanovo_VI-Gumelnita_ChL:PTK001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.66019034[/TD]
[TD]Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.76291030[/TD]
[TD]Varna_ChL:VAR023_ANI160[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]13.92732925[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.10727472[/TD]
[TD]Varna_ChL:VAR017[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.57026424[/TD]
[TD]Varna_ChL:VAR032[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.60507788[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN043[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.68606482[/TD]
[TD]Gumelnița_ChL:PIE042[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.75442645[/TD]
[TD]Varna_ChL:VAR034[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.79204516[/TD]
[TD]Varna_ChL:VAR027[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]14.94883273[/TD]
[TD]BGR_EBA:YUN035[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.09552251[/TD]
[TD]Gumelnița_ChL:PIE012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.24919670[/TD]
[TD]Usatove_ChL:MAJ020[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]15.39792843[/TD]
[TD]Varna_ChL:VAR021[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Matches the results for some of these groups, i.e. closeness to Corsica, Tuscany, Lombardia etc.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]0.96125178[/TD]
[TD]53.60% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE033 + 46.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2CFF00, align: right"]1.29158004[/TD]
[TD]55.40% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE065 + 44.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]1.46210748[/TD]
[TD]53.00% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE022 + 47.00% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3AFF00, align: right"]1.69472336[/TD]
[TD]52.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN026 + 47.20% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3AFF00, align: right"]1.71793526[/TD]
[TD]59.60% Varna_ChL:VAR022 + 40.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3CFF00, align: right"]1.75111760[/TD]
[TD]56.20% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE006 + 43.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3FFF00, align: right"]1.84231027[/TD]
[TD]58.20% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE062 + 41.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3FFF00, align: right"]1.84303143[/TD]
[TD]61.80% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE077 + 38.20% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #42FF00, align: right"]1.94804784[/TD]
[TD]54.20% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE034 + 45.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #42FF00, align: right"]1.95350371[/TD]
[TD]62.20% Varna_ChL:VAR019 + 37.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #43FF00, align: right"]1.96424594[/TD]
[TD]54.60% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE048 + 45.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #45FF00, align: right"]2.01908893[/TD]
[TD]53.60% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE050 + 46.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #47FF00, align: right"]2.08191138[/TD]
[TD]30.00% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 70.00% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4DFF00, align: right"]2.26297970[/TD]
[TD]29.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL003_54.19% + 70.60% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4FFF00, align: right"]2.31459653[/TD]
[TD]31.40% Usatove_Chl:MAJ002 + 68.60% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4FFF00, align: right"]2.32494594[/TD]
[TD]64.40% Varna_ChL:VAR021 + 35.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4FFF00, align: right"]2.32513305[/TD]
[TD]43.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 56.20% Gumelnița_EBA:PIE078[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #51FF00, align: right"]2.38730126[/TD]
[TD]44.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL008_20.12% + 55.40% Varna_ChL:VAR019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #52FF00, align: right"]2.40307867[/TD]
[TD]60.40% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE041 + 39.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #52FF00, align: right"]2.42255072[/TD]
[TD]40.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 60.00% BGR_EBA:YUN037[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #53FF00, align: right"]2.44736901[/TD]
[TD]63.80% Varna_ChL:VAR018 + 36.20% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #54FF00, align: right"]2.46503157[/TD]
[TD]65.40% Varna_ChL:VAR027 + 34.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #54FF00, align: right"]2.47814223[/TD]
[TD]30.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK006 + 69.40% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #55FF00, align: right"]2.50394936[/TD]
[TD]61.40% Varna_ChL:VAR009 + 38.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #55FF00, align: right"]2.51151059[/TD]
[TD]32.00% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 68.00% BGR_EBA:YUN036
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
I'm surprised by the closeness of the fit, actually.[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]0.96125178[/TD]
[TD]53.60% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE033 + 46.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2CFF00, align: right"]1.29158004[/TD]
[TD]55.40% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE065 + 44.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]1.46210748[/TD]
[TD]53.00% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE022 + 47.00% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3AFF00, align: right"]1.69472336[/TD]
[TD]52.80% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN026 + 47.20% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3AFF00, align: right"]1.71793526[/TD]
[TD]59.60% Varna_ChL:VAR022 + 40.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3CFF00, align: right"]1.75111760[/TD]
[TD]56.20% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE006 + 43.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3FFF00, align: right"]1.84231027[/TD]
[TD]58.20% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE062 + 41.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3FFF00, align: right"]1.84303143[/TD]
[TD]61.80% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE077 + 38.20% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #42FF00, align: right"]1.94804784[/TD]
[TD]54.20% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE034 + 45.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #42FF00, align: right"]1.95350371[/TD]
[TD]62.20% Varna_ChL:VAR019 + 37.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #43FF00, align: right"]1.96424594[/TD]
[TD]54.60% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE048 + 45.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #45FF00, align: right"]2.01908893[/TD]
[TD]53.60% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE050 + 46.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #47FF00, align: right"]2.08191138[/TD]
[TD]30.00% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 70.00% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4DFF00, align: right"]2.26297970[/TD]
[TD]29.40% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL003_54.19% + 70.60% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4FFF00, align: right"]2.31459653[/TD]
[TD]31.40% Usatove_Chl:MAJ002 + 68.60% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4FFF00, align: right"]2.32494594[/TD]
[TD]64.40% Varna_ChL:VAR021 + 35.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4FFF00, align: right"]2.32513305[/TD]
[TD]43.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 56.20% Gumelnița_EBA:PIE078[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #51FF00, align: right"]2.38730126[/TD]
[TD]44.60% Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL008_20.12% + 55.40% Varna_ChL:VAR019[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #52FF00, align: right"]2.40307867[/TD]
[TD]60.40% Gumelnița_ChL:PIE041 + 39.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #52FF00, align: right"]2.42255072[/TD]
[TD]40.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ020 + 60.00% BGR_EBA:YUN037[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #53FF00, align: right"]2.44736901[/TD]
[TD]63.80% Varna_ChL:VAR018 + 36.20% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #54FF00, align: right"]2.46503157[/TD]
[TD]65.40% Varna_ChL:VAR027 + 34.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #54FF00, align: right"]2.47814223[/TD]
[TD]30.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK006 + 69.40% BGR_EBA:YUN036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #55FF00, align: right"]2.50394936[/TD]
[TD]61.40% Varna_ChL:VAR009 + 38.60% BGR_EBA:YUN041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #55FF00, align: right"]2.51151059[/TD]
[TD]32.00% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 68.00% BGR_EBA:YUN036
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
Which shows that there was no movement from Yamnaya culture itself to Greece.
A cline is formed before Yamnaya comes to existence. And Yamnaya has ancestry from further west (where R1b-Z2103 may come from likely being WHG in origin)

That also means there is no reason to use Yamnaya to model e.g. Mycenaeans when there are earlier and more proximal sources that work (and more will appear)

And it also means that Indoeuropean could have been originally a 'farmer' language with just what is called 'nuclear Indo-European' being spoken inside the ANF-Steppe-Eneolithic cline, Greek being from the southern end.
Click to expand...

It doesn’t make any sense though. It’s way to early for Greek and no scientist ever believed that Cernavoda(Kartal B) is Greek or Proto-Greek, nor do the authors of the paper.
 
Anfänger said:
It doesn’t make any sense though. It’s way to early for Greek and no scientist ever believed that Cernavoda(Kartal B) is Greek or Proto-Greek, nor do the authors of the paper.
Click to expand...

It doesn't need to be proto-Greek. But it is inside the cline that is formed before Yamnaya came to be. Maybe inside this Anatolia Neolithic-Steppe Eneolithic cline what is called 'nuclear Indo-European' is formed, with Anatolian being native in South and West Anatolia (and Anatolian related languages in Greece too or parts of it at least). There was never a real rational reason to place proto-Anatolian outside Anatolia, although many views are theoretically possible.

My position is there was no movement from Yamnaya itself to Greece.

I respect all scholars but often circular reasoning is used.
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
Which shows that there was no movement from Yamnaya culture itself to Greece.
A cline is formed before Yamnaya comes to existence. And Yamnaya has ancestry from further west (where R1b-Z2103 may come from likely being WHG in origin)

That also means there is no reason to use Yamnaya to model e.g. Mycenaeans when there are earlier and more proximal sources that work (and more will appear)

And it also means that Indoeuropean could have been originally a 'farmer' language with just what is called 'nuclear Indo-European' being spoken inside the ANF-Steppe-Eneolithic cline, Greek being from the southern end.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I also think this is possibly how Greek developed as a language and an ethnicity.

The "northern model" facilitated by connivence of proximity, rather than a sweeping conquest that we see in Britain, Iberia, and Central Europe.

The Neolithic ancestors of Greece were too numerous, and too advanced to be conquered.
 
^^It is no wonder the Ancient Greeks thought of themselves as racially-superior to their neighbors, with a strong emphasis on autochthonous vitality.
 
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