E-m123*

Valerius

Valerius

Regular Member
Messages
130
Reaction score
76
Points
28
Ethnic group
Romania+Bulgaria
Y-DNA haplogroup
E-Y134099 - Romania
mtDNA haplogroup
HV (T16311C!)
Hello,

I was confirmed by FTDNA as E-M123* which is negative for M34 or any other branches. It's a rare haplogroup found in North-Western Iberia, The Middle East and even one case in my country Bulgaria, everywhere in just 1% or less. I want to ask about its presence in Europe - is it possible that E-M123* came to the Balkans with the Neolithic farmers from the Middle East? Or its presence there its due to late migrations like Roman colonists? Is it possible to be determined? My male ancestors are Vlachs who are said to be a mixture of Thracians and Roman colonists - so E-M123* could either be from Romans or Thracians. That's why I'm kinda confused with correlating my haplogroup with historical events. Any ideas? I know that with no branchings I can't compare myself with other E-M123 people so that's why I'm asking if someone knows something more than I do.

Also the distribution map of M123 from Geno 2.0 is different than the one in Eupedia - http://imgur.com/F1EYKue

It looks logical, according to the map, that M123 entered the Balkans from Anatolia and the highlighted area is more or less in the boundaries of Ancient Thrace.
 
Last edited:
This is a rare Haplogroup indeed. The fact that E-M123* does not even have a name tells me that this Haplogroup hasn't even been studied yet. But no worries, E-M123 may be really rare but that lineage is only your direct ancestor's lineage; fathers, father's, father's......... side of the family. I suppose we can start with Ftdna, I noticed that yes there are some people scattered around the Mediterranean whom are also E-M123*, are these guys on Ftdna? The E-M123 page moderators I would imagine would know the answer. I'm wondering if your E-M123* cousins Ydna can be tested by the Molecular Clock. The Molecular Clock can determine when you two shared a common direct ancestor.

Thracians and Neolithic European Ancestries are both very plausible hypothesis at this point, however ultimately what all of the E-M123* individuals have in common is that predomately all of them have direct origins that were historically apart of Rome. Witch leads to a hypothasis that I'm adding as a scenario; since the Ydna is spread out so super thin. If every E-M123* individuals have the same common ancestor that lived 2,000 ybp 200+or-, could the common ancestor be in the Roman military; Auxillary or Legionnaire?

At this point these are only educated guesses since the Ydna EM123* hasn't been studied yet. Unfortunately we need more samples in order to get a better idea. But a Molecular clock is a start to finding at least some answers. ^_^ good luck



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_clock



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M123#CITEREFFloresMaca-MeyerLarrugaCabrera2005



http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M123
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the information.

Yes, there are some other M123* people that I've met online - my type of M123* is called E-PF4428 - I've found 1 guy from Northern Portugal where this haplogroup seems to peak and one guy whose male ancestors were from Central Germany. In Haplozone-dot-net this Portugese person is not even detected as a match. I have been told that our E-PF4428 branch is so old that all of us are on a great distance from each other - thousand of years. AFAIK, the only way do determine the time to the most recent common ancestor goes with Big-Y but that's something for the future, at best. Is that Molecular clock part of the Big-Y or is different kind of DNA test, I didn't understood?

In FTDNA I don't have any matches or anything useful. Guess must wait for new info on the matter. Geno 2.0 says: "This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."
 
Valerius said:
Thank you for the information.

Yes, there are some other M123* people that I've met online - my type of M123* is called E-PF4428 - I've found 1 guy from Northern Portugal where this haplogroup seems to peak and one guy whose male ancestors were from Central Germany. In Haplozone-dot-net this Portugese person is not even detected as a match. I have been told that our E-PF4428 branch is so old that all of us are on a great distance from each other - thousand of years. AFAIK, the only way do determine the time to the most recent common ancestor goes with Big-Y but that's something for the future, at best. Is that Molecular clock part of the Big-Y or is different kind of DNA test, I didn't understood?

In FTDNA I don't have any matches or anything useful. Guess must wait for new info on the matter. Geno 2.0 says: "This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing."
Click to expand...

You're welcome, let's see what the big Y says. I'd do some research on your direct male ancestors and go back as far as you can on the paper trail; and rule out the mailmen while applicable. And by the time you have your Big Y results in the future, you should be closer to where your Ydna came from specifically. :)
 
Thank you, will do it at some point : )
 
dear valerius,
cool haplogroup
i derived from you
e-m123* is found in north portugal and
also there are few members from germany ....
with kind regards
adam

p.s
your haplogroup could be neolithic in europe {portugal}
but i do think your valch ancestor was descendents from roman auxiliry.... :)
 
Thank you Adam.
So you think that my haplogroup was originally from Portugal? I see E-M123* is common in Northern Portugal and Galicia region in Spain. In Roman times that area was inhabited by Celtiberians - Celtic tribes like Galici, Celtici, Bracari - is it possible that my male ancestors were Celts before they were picked up by the Romans as sodiers? I found this info about the Celts from Galicia - "they would be enlisted massively as auxiliaries of the Roman legions, fulfilling destinies sometimes completely separate from Galicia, as far as Thrace and Dacia". Seems like pieces of a puzzle pointing to the Romans. But I'll have to wait some time for the TMRCA info. It can confirm these theories.
 
Cohors [prima] Bracaraugustanorum [quingenaria] equitata civium Romanorum ("[1st] part-mounted [500 strong] cohort of Roman citizens
 regiment containing cavalry contingents. The cohort stationed in dacia
they were at this fort :
[h=1]Castra of Boroșneu Mare[/h]
 
Thank you again for your information - it led me to some interesting observations - it seems this cohort was part of the Legio XIII Gemina which was stationed in Dacia but in 271 AD was evacuated and re-stationed in Ratiaria (modern Archar, NW Bulgaria)... and that's just 20-30 km away from the home village of my ancestors. Don't know if these Bracari units were still there at that time but everything's possible.

Can't wait to get some info on the time as Twilight also noted that if it's 2000 +/- years it will be a good proof for everything we are talking about here.
 
Valerius said:
Thank you, will do it at some point : )
Click to expand...

Valerius said:
Thank you again for your information - it led me to some interesting observations - it seems this cohort was part of the Legio XIII Gemina which was stationed in Dacia but in 271 AD was evacuated and re-stationed in Ratiaria (modern Archar, NW Bulgaria)... and that's just 20-30 km away from the home village of my ancestors. Don't know if these Bracari units were still there at that time but everything's possible.

Can't wait to get some info on the time as Twilight also noted that if it's 2000 +/- years it will be a good proof for everything we are talking about here.
Click to expand...

You're most welcome. Wish you the best of luck and Happy Holidays :)
 
Btw, just to add this - I've imported that genome from Bronze Age Armenia (RISE423) that turned out to be E-M123* in DNA.LAND and the results are rather strange if they are true:

African 71%
West African 50%
Lower Niger Valley 37%
Mende/Akan 13%
Southern African 22%
West Eurasian 29%
South/Central European 17%
Kalash 11%

I know that the YDNA is unrelated or very distantly related to autosomes but still it's very surprising if there was a population in Bronze age Anatolia with those kind of autosomal stats.
 
Valerius said:
Btw, just to add this - I've imported that genome from Bronze Age Armenia (RISE423) that turned out to be E-M123* in DNA.LAND and the results are rather strange if they are true:

African 71%
West African 50%
Lower Niger Valley 37%
Mende/Akan 13%
Southern African 22%
West Eurasian 29%
South/Central European 17%
Kalash 11%

I know that the YDNA is unrelated or very distantly related to autosomes but still it's very surprising if there was a population in Bronze age Anatolia with those kind of autosomal stats.
Click to expand...
Mislabelled sample probably. Every other analysis shows that sample looking like a North Caucasian.
 
I guess so, otherwise it would be very very strange.
 
Yfull is done - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

Seems that me and the German person (from Poland) are now on our own European branch - formed 18100 ybp, TMRCA 10900 ybp - looks like a prehistoric migration, although nothing is for sure because of the insufficient data.
 
Valerius said:
Yfull is done - https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/

Seems that me and the German person (from Poland) are now on our own European branch - formed 18100 ybp, TMRCA 10900 ybp - looks like a prehistoric migration, although nothing is for sure because of the insufficient data.
Click to expand...


what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

up untill now it was mainly found in north portugal

source : http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top&


Untitled.jpg
 
kingjohn said:
what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

up untill now it was mainly found in north portugal

source : http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top&


View attachment 9722
Click to expand...

Thank you for this interesting information, never realized e-m123* was ever found in Italy. Sadly I can't access neither the image nor the document. Is e-m123* found among living population or in ancient samples? And is it confirmed to be e-m123* and not just e-m123 ? If it's present there then that would add more credibility to the theory that the Etruscans came from Anatolia/Near East back in the day. Also will fill the missing e-m123* from Italy, as before was present in the South only in the Balkans and Iberia. Also interesting about its presence in Germany, Austria, Hungary and England.
 
Valerius said:
Thank you for this interesting information, never realized e-m123* was ever found in Italy. Sadly I can't access neither the image nor the document. Is e-m123* found among living population or in ancient samples? And is it confirmed to be e-m123* and not just e-m123 ? If it's present there then that would add more credibility to the theory that the Etruscans came from Anatolia/Near East back in the day. Also will fill the missing e-m123* from Italy, as before was present in the South only in the Balkans and Iberia. Also interesting about its presence in Germany, Austria, Hungary and England.
Click to expand...

It does not make any sense to look for the origins of an ancient people on the basis of less widespread and rarer haplogroups in modern-day populations. E-M123 was already found in Italy, and also in Sardinia. It is possible to find it anywhere in Italy but never exceeds 1-2%, except in Sardinia and very few other places. And E-M123* is also found in Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal.

kingjohn said:
what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture

up untill now it was mainly found in north portugalsource : http://tandfonline.com/doi/suppl/10.1080/03014460.2017.1409801?scroll=top&
Click to expand...


1.8% means that there are 2 out of 117 individuals in Volterra with this haplogroup. It's quite impossible to draw any conclusion, they are too few.
 
Pax Augusta said:
It does not make any sense to look for the origins of an ancient people on the basis of less widespread and rarer haplogroups in modern-day populations. E-M123 was already found in Italy, and also in Sardinia. It is possible to find it anywhere in Italy but never exceeds 1-2%, except in Sardinia and very few other places. And E-M123* is also found in Bulgaria, Spain and Portugal.
Click to expand...

My idea was that it will add more pieces to the puzzle, not that it will solve the whole riddle.
 
kingjohn said:
what is your thought on the e-m123* 1.8% 2/113 in volterrea tuscanay
this area was etruscan and before that related to villanova culture
Click to expand...

Kingjohn, I've checked the results from this study and there is no information about e-m123* - it's only e-m123 which is almost for sure E-m34, as it's the case in many parts of Italy as Pax Augusta mentioned. In that case it's just normal presence of e-m34 which is indeed pre-Etruscan as it seems.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top