Archaic & Pre-Roman Tortora, Calabria

[Jovialis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1782456258282287324

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Jovialis: Interesting paper, is there a printable version available. From reading the abstract the best I can, the Oenotrians (who live in Southern Campania down to Calabria and Sicily (Sicels) along with the Lucanians who lived primarily in Basilicata (e.g. Morgetes were Lucanians that went into Sicily as well) were similar to the peoples of Lazio (Latins and Faliscans). The Research has shown that the Lucanians spoke more of the Osco-Umbrian branch of Italic. Very Interesting indeed. The Greeks not only set up cities all over Southern Italy and Sicily, but there is a massive movement of Greeks into those areas that leaves a larger genetic impact on those populations than any other events since the 1st millennium BC.

So for Southern Italy we are getting more evidence that a Italo-Greco convergence seems to largely explain the Southern Italian Genetic profile, which I think this paper does show.

Thanks for the link, looking forward to seeing the samples

 

[Jovialis]

I don't think it is out yet,

Seems like soon we are going to have a very good picture of Italy finally, given all of the new papers coming out.

 

[Vitruvius]

Thanks for posting this Jovialis. The fact that Blanda was not a Magna Graecian city at any point but seems to be still experiencing an early influx of Greeks is telling and similar to the leaked Mittnik PCAs which showed a Greek pull of ancestry affecting Pontecagnano Campania prior to Roman domination. I'd really like to see this one. I wasn't particularly expecting the Oenotreans to look identical to the Latins and Etruscans from Central Italy, nor the Lucanians for that matter, but it will be good to get our first samples for these populations. The biggest question for me is exacty how numerically significant these Greek outliers were and if we see a trend of increasing Greek ancestry as time goes on.

 

[epirus1000]

Thanks for posting this Jovialis. The fact that Blanda was not a Magna Graecian city at any point but seems to be still experiencing an early influx of Greeks is telling and similar to the leaked Mittnik PCAs which showed a Greek pull of ancestry affecting Pontecagnano Campania prior to Roman domination. I'd really like to see this one. I wasn't particularly expecting the Oenotreans to look identical to the Latins and Etruscans from Central Italy, nor the Lucanians for that matter, but it will be good to get our first samples for these populations. The biggest question for me is exacty how numerically significant these Greek outliers were and if we see a trend of increasing Greek ancestry as time goes on.

What is this Greek ancestry pull where ancient Greeks are the less studied to date?
You are calling all ancient Balkans as Greeks, where obviously Greeks were a small part of the Balkans.

 

[Vitruvius]

What is this Greek ancestry pull where ancient Greeks are the less studied to date?
You are calling all ancient Balkans as Greeks, where obviously Greeks were a small part of the Balkans.

In the context of Southern Italy, the Greek pull of ancestry from Greece proper is towards the LBA Greek average from Skourtanioti et al. and the C6 cluster from Antonio et al. The C5 cluster is most likely Greco-Anatolian by comparison.

I have no idea what you're going on about with your claim about the ancient balkans. Yes, obviously most of the Balkans were not Greek. I'm not sure why you believe that I think otherwise.

 

[epirus1000]

In the context of Southern Italy, the Greek pull of ancestry from Greece proper is towards the LBA Greek average from Skourtanioti et al. and the C6 cluster from Antonio et al. The C5 cluster is most likely Greco-Anatolian by comparison.

I have no idea what you're going on about with your claim about the ancient balkans. Yes, obviously most of the Balkans were not Greek. I'm not sure why you believe that I think otherwise.

Yes, Skourtanioti has 60% of the sample from two cemeteries of Crete. Very representative

 

[torzio]

When did the Greeks arrive in Mainland Italy ?

Across a Narrow Sea: Ancient Greeks and Romans in the Eastern Adriatic​

The earliest I have seen is corinthian greeks took Corfu from the Liburnians and then a decade or two later set up two towns in modern Albania

Baltic amber trade was going on by the Liburnians and egyptians since the bronze-age , so there where no Greeks involved then

Maybe modern Taranto with its influx or argos and spartan Greeks was the first on mainland Italy

 

[torzio]

 

[torzio]

 

[Vitruvius]

Yes, Skourtanioti has 60% of the sample from two cemeteries of Crete. Very representative

Skourtanioti et al provided more bronze age Greek samples than every other prior study combined. Not only did it vastly enlighten our understanding of the shifting genetic structure of the bronze age Aegean, but it was a large and real contribution to understanding this thread topic, unlike your lowbrow strawman arguments and sarcastic troll attempts.

By the way, Knossos is considered to be one of the largest cities of the bronze age mediterranean in case you weren't already aware.

 

[torzio]

Liburnian and Egyptian trade for Baltic amber began in the period from 1700BC.

Liburnian spoke an old italic and central european language , as summonised so far ....................my guess is this might be what they ended up speaking after so many centuries of trade in central-europe and the Italian coast .......................though they did trade with the veneti for glass beads for many centuries