Ancient DNA challenges prevailing interpretations of the Pompeii plaster casts

Riverman said:
That's in the spreadshit S1, slide C.
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Is there a way to see this spreadshit S1 silde C
In the supplemental tables
Without eccess ( that i lack) ?
 
Nice to see a YHG J2-L25 on this Study, ( a young child), individual 51, I3686 found in the house of the golden Bracelet. Although it's an old J2 clade, some of its subclades are still relevant on southern Italy today, like JL70 for example. Is indeed interesting if we consider his Autosomal analysis (page 6, figure 2, charts A and B), probably the most Imperial Roman type of all individuals, matching with modern Southern Italians and Aegeans. This could underline, once more, that this kind of genetic profile, probably related to Greek settlers of Magna Graecia from the IXth century BCE, mixed with italic locals, was already part of the Italian peninsula at early imperial times, and that some yHG's like some subclades of J2-L25, were part of this genetic process.
 
Recently they made this discovery in the Campanian coast not far from Pompeii, demonstrating that this area was a trade hub where business people from all over the empire came and go to sell their goods:

archaeologymag.com

Archaeologists study submerged Nabataean temple off the cost of Pozzuoli, Italy

In 2023, archaeologists at the ancient Roman port of Puteoli, now Pozzuoli in Italy, uncovered the submerged remains of a Nabataean temple.
archaeologymag.com archaeologymag.com
 
real expert said:
Pompeii, Stabiae, Herculaneum, and neighboring towns served as favored year-round retreats for Roman aristocrats. The region's delightful climate enticed emperors like Augustus and Tiberius to construct luxurious villas along the picturesque coasts of nearby islands, including the stunning Capri.The presence of the native Roman wealthy elite in Pompeii contributed significantly to the city's diverse population of merchants and slaves. This raised the possibility of discovering the remains of Roman patricians or influential members of society among the human remains, as they were typically cremated. A notable example is Pliny the Elder, who perished in Pompeii; he belonged to the Equestrian Class, a legionary cavalry that was exclusively composed of patricians.
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Precisely the Roman Artistocrats employed large numbers of servants, slaves and foreign workers on their properties.
 
Pax Augusta said:
What you claim is completely discredited by DNA.
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italic peoples and also the etruscans remains from previews dna papers were mainly r1b
i agree with you here
it is likely that most of the victims here were merchants who came from eastern med and to some extent even north africa


the print screens from twitter user :)

1731247579366.png


1731246710376.png
 
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kingdavid said:
italic peoples and also the etruscans remains from previews dna papers were mainly r1b
i agree with you here
it is likely that most of the victims here were merchants who came from eastern med and to some extent even north africa
Click to expand...

As for Pompeii, which was obviously a cosmpolitan port city, one must also consider that the eruption lasted for at least 2 days, with the first warnings in the days leading up to it, and that many of Pompeii's inhabitants left the city. Since the city was inhabited by many aristocratic Romans who had their summer villas here, it is possible that the last to leave the city were the slaves and servants, who were likely forced to the last to guard their owners' properties to prevent looting.
 
Pax Augusta said:
As for Pompeii, which was obviously a cosmpolitan port city, one must also consider that the eruption lasted for at least 2 days, with the first warnings in the days leading up to it, and that many of Pompeii's inhabitants left the city. Since the city was inhabited by many aristocratic Romans who had their summer villas here, it is possible that the last to leave the city were the slaves and servants, who were likely forced to the last to guard their owners' properties to prevent looting.
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yes thats what happen to I3682 one of the 2 e-L19 individuals
he was custodian of the villa (of low status)
he had to remain there till he met his end
:(
1731248740747.png



p.s
by the way he was probably handsome
convex nose
and impressive height 1.85
me myself only 1.78 pretty impressive height for him speaking almost 2000 years ago;)
 
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Pax Augusta said:
Slaves and merchants are the consequence of an empire, certainly not the reason for the birth of an empire.
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Then that map of the distribution of J2 means nothing, many clades of J2 arrived in Europe during Prehistory, and their current spread/diffusion had nothing to do with the Roman Empire.
 
Some J2's subclades were already part of the Roman world long before imperial times, and as Pax Augusta said, some of them were on the italian peninsula even on prehistoric times. It's impossible, today, to make any clear statement on the social status of the death in Pompei. What we know is that it was a wealth and big city, for that period of time, with people from everywhere, specially from the Mediterranean shores. But with many locals, as well, as inscriptions from the city suggests, that is: a mix between Italics, Etruscans and Greeks, some of this people were part of the local Aristocracy, not necessarily related to Roman Patricians, so there is indeed a possibility that some of them were part of the victims of the eruption as well. What is really intriguing, is the fact that in the house of the Bracelet , including the two children were not relatives at all, and all from different genetic backgrounds including Yhg. I continue to underline that in the case of the young boy, J-L25,he matches genetically with southern Italians, and with what now we call: Roman Imperial genetic profile.
 
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kingdavid said:
italic peoples and also the etruscans remains from previews dna papers were mainly r1b
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Etruscans as a non-Indo-European people were mainly r1b but almost all ancient Indo-European samples, such as Mycenaeans and Anatolians were J2, Italic people were the same J2.
 
Moja said:
Etruscans as a non-Indo-European people were mainly r1b but almost all ancient Indo-European samples, such as Mycenaeans and Anatolians were J2, Italic people were the same J2.
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Picene paper ( italic tribe)
www.biorxiv.org

The Genomic portrait of the Picene culture: new insights into the Italic Iron Age and the legacy of the Roman expansion in Central Italy

Background The Italic Iron Age was characterized by the presence of various ethnic groups partially examined from a genomic perspective. To explore the evolution of Iron Age Italic populations and the genetic impact of Romanization, we focused on the Picenes, one of the most fascinating...
www.biorxiv.org www.biorxiv.org

They had some j2 even j1
but there dominant y haplogroup is r1b
 
Juan.delajara said:
It's impossible, today, to make any clear statement on the social status of the death in Pompei.
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I agree but we can make an educated guess based on what we know of life in Pompeii.

Just to make an example, I come from a small-medium sized town in Lombardy. On Saturdays about 33% of those gathering in its center are clearly recent Middle Eastern and African immigrants or children of Middel Eastern or African immigrants. Mind I'm not including less apparent immigrants like Eastern Europeans.

What would happen if a sudden cataclysm occured on those days, causing the death of all the people going for a walk? Some scientist exhuming 10 or even 20 random samples' remains and analysing their DNA 2,000 years later could come up with some VERY wild interpretations about the genetic make-up and the level of cosmopolitanism of an in fact extremely provincial Lombard town in 2024! :ROFLMAO:

In fact a very tiny part of those will ever merry into local families, surely many will go back to their countries after some years or even decades.

Sure, demography could really change the genetic make-up over a long period of time but that is another matter we are not discussing here (although it would help to remind, in this respect, that today's genetic profile in central Italy is not the same as the "Imperial Roman" genetic profile either, suggesting to me a similar scenario to the one I've described in respect to my hometown).

My point is that a thorough knowledge of history is helpful for the scientists to interpret genetic data and I'm not sure I'm finding it in this paper. What I find though is the usual undertones pushing immigrationist (and in one particular instance even LGBTQ) agendas.
 
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HereToLearn said:
I agree but we can make an educated guess based on what we know of life in Pompeii.

Just to make an example, I come from a small-medium sized town in Lombardy. On Saturdays about 33% of those gathering in its center are clearly recent Middle Eastern and African immigrants or children of Middel Eastern or African immigrants. Mind I'm not including less apparent immigrants like Eastern Europeans.

What would happen if a sudden cataclysm occured on those days, causing the death of all the people going for a walk? Some scientist exhuming 10 or even 20 random samples' remains and analysing their DNA 2,000 years later could come up with some VERY wild interpretations about the genetic make-up and the level of cosmopolitanism of an in fact extremely provincial Lombard town in 2024! :ROFLMAO:

In fact a very tiny part of those will ever merry into local families, surely many will go back to their countries after some years or even decades.

Sure, demography could really change the genetic make-up over a long period of time but that is another matter we are not discussing here (although it would help to remind, in this respect, that today's genetic profile in central Italy is not the same as the "Imperial Roman" genetic profile either, suggesting to me a similar scenario to the one I've described in respect to my hometown).

My point is that a thorough knowledge of history is helpful for the scientists to interpret genetic data and I'm not sure I'm finding it in this paper. What I find though is the usual undertones pushing immigrationist (and in one particular instance even LGBTQ) agendas.
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I agree with you, purtroppo, some interpretations are not really scientific or based on historic facts. Saluti
 
Moja said:
Etruscans as a non-Indo-European people were mainly r1b but almost all ancient Indo-European samples, such as Mycenaeans and Anatolians were J2, Italic people were the same J2.
Click to expand...

You don't read archaeogenetic studies, though. You forget about the Celts who are are also predominantly R1b, as well as the Latins, and of course the aforementioned Etruscans. All these 3 seem to have common uniparental markers in the Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe (for the Latins we need more samples though). If I remember correctly even in Spain the local populations is R1b, both Indo-European and non-Indo-European speaking. At the moment there is no evidence that the Italics were J2, and then J2 should be split into J2a and J2b, because they have two different histories. For example, the proto-Illyrian peoples of the Balkans seem predominantly J2b. While the Italic samples analyzed so far, the Latins (Latino-Faliscan group, Western Italics) and the Picenes (Osco-Umbrian group, Eastern Italics) are both predominantly R1b.

Indo-Europeans did not exist as a people in the Iron Age, it is not an ethnic term, Indo-European is a linguistic term, the Indo-European language family. This language family is partly descended from a prehistoric population that lived in the Eneolithic in the Steppes (Jamna culture), which was majority R1b with a minority of I2a, and expanding westward through Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. And partly descended from an earlier prehistoric population living a little further south between the Caucasus and Iran, which was not R1b. Mycenaeans and Anatolians are J2a because they are most likely not linguistically descended, certainly the Anatolians less clear for Mycenaeans, from the Steppe people (on the Mycenaeans both hypotheses exist, whereas for the Anatolians the consensus is that they are pre-Steppe).
 
As a maritime trade city Pompeii was a melting pot, a cosmopolitan place with a heterogeneous population. Culturally it was shaped by a blend of Oscan, Samnite, Etruscan, Greek, Roman and Punic influences.
Pompeii’s port facilitated extensive maritime trade, connecting it to various parts of the Mediterranean and the city’s markets were centres of economic and cultural interaction. There would be merchants from different regions exchanging goods.

The influence of Magna Graecia, the Greek colonies in Southern Italy, played a crucial role in transmitting Greek culture to Pompeii. This region was a hub of Greek culture and commerce.
Magna Graecia has had a significant impact of on Pompeii’s development and its inhabitants. The presence of Greek cognomina (family name, surname) and cultural practices in Pompeii indicates a significant Greek influence.

Placing Individuals: Pompeian Epigraphy in Context

Also, the city’s connections with the western Mediterranean, including Punic and Sicilian influences, are significant and often overlooked. Pompeii had strong ties with the western Mediterranean, namely Sicily (also part of Magna Graecia), which had a dual Greek and Punic heritage.

Pompeii in the Hellenistic period shows a mix of some Greek and Punic cultural elements, which characterises Sicily.​

Hellenistic Pompeii: between Oscan, Greek, Roman and Punic (Chapter 2) - The Hellenistic West

Magna Graecia (Sicily included) will have played a major cultural, religious and genetic role, contributing to the Eastern Mediterranean influences existing in Pompeii.

This map had already been posted by Vitruvius in another thread, it shows the extent of Greek colonization in the Mediterranean.

2u9kMdW.jpg
 
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