Ancestry and kinship in a Late Antiquity-Early Middle Ages cemetery in the EasternItalian Alps

Vitruvius said:
It indeed would have to. I think we will come to learn that IA northern Italy was not totally identical to IA C. Italy at some point in the future, but you have brought up one of the most damning pieces of evidence against the German repopulation hypothesis, which is that modern Italians in every region have almost no WHG at all (0-3%). This lack of WHG is not characteristic for populations north and west of Italy. A lack of WHG is strongly suggestive of a South Eastern European origin from the bronze age onwards, which is what I've been getting at. It seems more evident to me that Italy has been affected by several internal repopulation events which shifted ancestry southwards in the Roman early imperial era, and then back northward during the late roman era and middle ages. This stands in contrast to the Germanic & Middle Eastern repopulation scenarios which seem to be ceaselessly pushed by less than credible authors.
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What is the source of WHG in IA central Italians in your opinion?

I've read some of your posts (which I find mostly convincing) but unless I'm wrong you postulate that these IA central Italians originally came from north-east (roughly Pannonia) rather than north of the Alps (roughly S. Germany). In that case wouldn't their WHG be lower?
 
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HereToLearn said:
What is the source of WHG in IA central Italians in your opinion?

I've read some of your posts (which I find mostly convincing) but unless I'm wrong you postulate that these IA central Italians originally came from north-east (roughly Pannonia) rather than north of the Alps (roughly S. Germany). In that case wouldn't their WHG be lower?
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Maybe from descendents of these people that may have reached central Italy but unlikely to have stayed in great numbers, they had a bigger impact in north Italy -
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Maybe from descendents of these people that may have reached central Italy but unlikely to have stayed in great numbers, they had a bigger impact in north Italy
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That's to be expected, even only for geographical proximity it is completely normal that northern Italy should be more affected than central Italy.

But that is not my point, my question to Vitruvius is: does WHG not show at higher levels in IA Italian samples (either central or northern) than we should expect if their original homeland were to the east/north-east?
 
HereToLearn said:
What is the source of WHG in IA central Italians in your opinion?

I've read some of your posts (which I find mostly convincing) but unless I'm wrong you postulate that these IA central Italians originally came from north-east (roughly Pannonia) rather than north of the Alps (roughly S. Germany). In that case wouldn't their WHG be lower?
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The very small amount of WHG ancestry in Italy is exclusively or near exclusively a leftover from Villabruna like populations that have occupied the peninsula since the Mesolithic. The distribution is not even and it seems apparant that it was found at higher levels in the North than the South during the copper age and neolithic (assuming no new data later disproves this pattern). Keeping this in mind the incoming Italics or proto italics with steppe ancestry would have been diluting the WHG which was already found in Italy, not increasing it. Sardinians today, which have experienced none or close to no introgression since the neolithic bare a much higher amount of WHG ancestry compared to mainland italy for this reason.

Remedello copper aged populations are also a good point to illustrate this. They harbor no EHG/RUS_Volga ancestry associated with steppe introgression but they average 17% WHG, which is much higher than modern Italians and still significantly higher than IA Etruscans/Latins. As more and more steppe individuals entered Italy from the east, we see a gradual dilution of WHG ancestry.

WHG.png


Here are Iron age Latins and Etruscans by comparison:

C. Italy Iron age.png


We also see the dilution of WHG ancestry from Greek introgressions into southern Italy during the BA and Iron age as well.

The Sicani averaged 4.7%:

Sicani.png


Where as the Himerians average 1%:

Greeks.png
 
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@ Vitruvius

Fine work as usual.
Which calculator did you use and do you have the co-ordinates for the tables above?
 
Vitruvius said:
Thanks Vallicanus! These are just regular G25 samples punched into vahaduo. Attached are source and target population coordinates.
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I get:

50.4pc TUR_Barcin_N

23.4pc RUS_Volga-Kama_N

22.7pc AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN

3.5pc WHG

Distance: 0.0387/0.03869987

How do I stand compared to Sicani, Himera Greeks, Latins and Etruscans?
 
Vallicanus said:
I get:

50.4pc TUR_Barcin_N

23.4pc RUS_Volga-Kama_N

22.7pc AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN

3.5pc WHG

Distance: 0.0387/0.03869987

How do I stand compared to Sicani, Himera Greeks, Latins and Etruscans?
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Your profile is very typical of Italians of Southern Piemonte, Liguria and Northern Tuscany. It looks like your ancestral background comes from somewhere between modern North and Central Italy. In my opinion we can model this profile as ~ 86% N. Italic (Bardonecchia EMA) and 14% Roman Imperial Central Italic (Etruria). You see the same type of profile begin to emerge in EMA Torino from intermarriages between Italians with Aegean-like imperial profiles and those of Northern Italic ancestry who are similar to Illyrian IA populations.

profile.png


Compared to the Sicani, Himera Greeks, Latins and Etruscans, you'd probably be closest to the latter two, but I think in reality you probably derive all or almost all of your steppe rich ancestry from Po valley or the Prealps. Mind if I ask what your known background is?
 
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Both of my parents are from the province of Lucca in NW Tuscany.
 
What is Volga-Karma Neo? It surely isn't a standart reference for western steppe herderer. If so the casenovele etruscan CSN004 should be scoring around 26% sredny stog related ancestry.
 
Viramund said:
What is Volga-Karma Neo? It surely isn't a standart reference for western steppe herderer. If so the casenovele etruscans should be scoring around 26% sredny stog related ancestry.
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Volga-Kama N. is a neolithic holdover of a pure or near pure EHG. You're correct in that it is not a direct analogue for BA steppe admixture which by comparison has significant Caucasian introgression.

volga.png
 
Vitruvius said:
That checks out then. It seems like a pretty place with a rich heritage.

View attachment 15106
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This is the Ponte della Dogana at Fabbriche di Vallico. This was a customs point separating the Republic of Lucca and the Este Duchy of Ferrara/Modena for about 400 years before Italian Unification.

What is your Italian background...Samnite... going by your avatar?
 
Vallicanus said:
Is AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN similar to CHG?
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AZE Caucasus is similar to CHG yes, but it's a more Southerly Caucasian ancestry that's specific to the neolithic Armenian highlands and other Caucasian lands south of Georgia. This is the specific type of Caucasian ancestry you see widespread in copper/bronze age Anatolians and Mycenaean Greeks. Its profile is more Dzudzuana-like in comparison to CHG with less ANE ancestry. It's still found in extremely high percentages in Armenians today.


Armenians.png
 
The only indigenous "italian tribes" I recall are

Liguri - NW Italy
Etruscans - western central Italy
Euganei - NE Italy
and
Sicani - Sicily

Umbri, Veneti and others came to Italy in the bronze age

Sabine, Sabillic, Samnites, Volsci and others are all from Umbri origins ..................they are the biggest group of the foreigners.......arriving 2000BC

Venetic came into Italy circa 1300BC

Illyrians came into Italy 1100 BC

Greeks came into Italy not before 730BC

Cisalpine Gauls came in sometimes between 700 to 500BC
 
torzio said:
The only indigenous "italian tribes" I recall are

Liguri - NW Italy
Etruscans - western central Italy
Euganei - NE Italy
and
Sicani - Sicily

Umbri, Veneti and others came to Italy in the bronze age

Sabine, Sabillic, Samnites, Volsci and others are all from Umbri origins ..................they are the biggest group of the foreigners.......arriving 2000BC

Venetic came into Italy circa 1300BC

Illyrians came into Italy 1100 BC

Greeks came into Italy not before 730BC

Cisalpine Gauls came in sometimes between 700 to 500BC
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Well, I'm not sure what qualifiers you're using to delineate "indigenous" tribes from foreign in this case. In my opinion there's a lot of relativity when we speak of prehistoric populations and it depends on the context of time in which we speak of. To Mesolithic inhabitants of Italy, anyone with Barcin ancestry must have been perceived as extremely "foreign" both in genetic makeup and cultural practices.

Other than that, Greeks or at least Aegean populations have been in Italy since well into the bronze age. We not only see it genetically with the introduction of Caucasian ancestry into Sicily, but it's also pretty well archaeologically attested. The cut burials of the Thapsos culture in Sicily are indicative of Mycenaean influence association according to Paolo Orsi.

"I believe I have demonstrated the influence, albeit in a smaller scale of Mycenaean architecture in front of burials of the islet Magnisi; here that influence affirms for the most part. - Paolo Orsi. "Pantalica e i suoi monumenti"

Similarly we find carved bone plaques which are shared between BA Sicily's Castelluccio culture, Troy and Greece. If we look below, sample 1 was found in Sicily and sample 2 is from Troy. Their function remains elusive but they are not found out of the context of these three cultures.


Bone plaques Castelluccio Sicily and Troy layer II.png


I believe also that Jovalis posted a study which determined Neolithic inhabitants of Calabria showed closest genetic commonality with those of Greek populations compared to other neolithic samples if I'm not mistaken.
 
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