a sample of ~600 shows that 71% of Saudi Arabians carry J1-M267 (J-P58 mutation)

Angela said:
Discussions like this always falter because people don't define their terms. It leads to "sloppy" argumentation and conclusions.

People in the Levant are not necessarily actually "Arabs" genetically. I'm thinking of people like the Druse or Christian Lebanese. Even the others may have only minor "Arab" ancestry.

Ydna is not always a good barometer for overall genetic similarity, not even when it's been completely and recently been figured out to recently found subclades.

Semites are a different story, if that's what you mean. Phoenicians, close relatives of Christian Lebanese, were Semites. They didn't have an advanced culture. It was more advanced than that of a lot of countries I could name.

We don't need any more vague and incorrect generalizations with undefined terms.
Click to expand...
Sorry but what part of the discussion are you referring to?
 
Ownstyler said:
You were saying that J1 in Central Asia was spread by Arab Muslims who raped/pillaged in that region. I showed you that J1 was there at least 4800 ybp. You were wrong.
Click to expand...

Only very few, an extensive test needs to be done in that region to find out more. I didn't say it was just "rape", they had to stay there after killing the men and have several women slaves to themselves and have many kids. There is no way they managed to change the language of North African countries by just "raping women" and running off, they had to settle there and take the women for themselves, take peoples money, their land etc. A lot of people would have fled into the countrysides/mountains/forests

Also, you failed to explain why sicily has more j1 than the rest of Italy, why would it be Jews when you don't even know what their real sub clade was and there is no real history of Jews only settling in sicily, this is wrong. What history tells us is that arabs conquered sicily and it has more j1 than the rest of Italy.

J1 "Jews" you see today are not Jews just like ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews, half of their land today is arabs, they have had problems with them for a very long time
But here I am still waiting for answers from the experts on this website. Which are the sub clades that arabs put into the middle East post 640 since you like to claim ALL J1 was there before 640
 
Kelmendasi said:
Nah I have read up on the Islamic conquest of the Middle East, North Africa and Iberia, I've just read reliable sources and not people's opinions on Quora.com. I didn't say Osman was a Mongol, I don't even know how you even got that (problems with comprehension I guess), he was a Turk (Oghuz to be more specific). The point was that the Ottomans themselves have oral tradition claiming descendance from Turkic tribes, whether or not it was true is irrelevant though it does seem likely that Ertugrul was his father. Btw the Mongols didn't hate Islam, the Mongols were highly tolerant of foreign religions which is why their empire didn't have an official religion. Most of the Mongol hordes actually converted to Islam upon the collapse of the Empire, a people that hate Islam wouldn't do that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YirWYMurJn4, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nGSwgzyiVQ I pray this helps you
Mate, nobody is denying that the Arabs did spread their influence in the areas you mentioned, I even said that they did. You're comprehension is just really bad. Your beliefs are borderline fantastical, you argue that samples dating to over 5,000 years old in the Caucasus and Central Asia are actually Arabs when in reality the early pre-Islamic Arabs weren't all that widespread or advanced and their clades have nothing to do with these ones.
Yes that's precisely it, they can't be Illyrians because they came during the Medieval. Just like how J1 in the Caucasus can't be Arab because it pre-dates them by thousands of years. You're exactly the same as those Serbs, just different delusions.
And I already told you that I'm not going to spoon feed you like a kid, if you want to know something do your own research. Just don't go searching on Quora or Forbears.io
Click to expand...

Wrong!

Real genuine Mongols hated islam/arabs, don't know which ones you speak of

"From the head of the Mongol army, anxious to devastate the perfidious nation of the Saracens, with the good-will support of the Christian faith (...) so that you, who are the rulers of the coasts on the other side of the sea, endeavor to deny a refuge for the Infidels, your enemies and ours, by having your subjects diligently patrol the seas.
— Letter from Hulagu to Saint Louis."

Just to help you out:
Perfidious: deceitful, untrustworthy, evil etc
Saracens: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saracen

"Many new-born children in Italy were named after Mongol rulers, including Hulagu: names such as Can Grande ("Great Khan"), Alaone (Hulagu), Argone (Arghun), and Cassano (Ghazan) are recorded."

Also, in terms of south Europe how many mongol looking people do you see? Very very few, almost non existant, you actually see more in finland. How many syrian/iraqi/egyptian/arab looking men do you see in South europe? A whole lot more that's for sure, check out turkey, bulgaria and greece
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
Only very few, an extensive test needs to be done in that region to find out more. I didn't say it was just "rape", they had to stay there after killing the men and have several women slaves to themselves and have many kids. There is no way they managed to change the language of North African countries by just "raping women" and running off, they had to settle there and take the women for themselves, take peoples money, their land etc. A lot of people would have fled into the countrysides/mountains/forests

Also, you failed to explain why sicily has more j1 than the rest of Italy, why would it be Jews when you don't even know what their real sub clade was and there is no real history of Jews only settling in sicily, this is wrong. What history tells us is that arabs conquered sicily and it has more j1 than the rest of Italy.

J1 "Jews" you see today are not Jews just like ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews, half of their land today is arabs, they have had problems with them for a very long time
But here I am still waiting for answers from the experts on this website. Which are the sub clades that arabs put into the middle East post 640 since you like to claim ALL J1 was there before 640
Click to expand...
We do know what J1 clade is linked to Jews. Jews for the most part belong to downstreams of J-Y3081 (ZS241), with the most distinctly Jewish clade being Y3081>Y3088 (Z18271) which clearly has origin in the Levant. Arabs on the other hand mainly belong to FGC11 which also seems to have origin around the Levant and Mesopotamia.

The majority of J1 in Sicily belongs to J-YSC76, the presence of this group in Sicily is linked to the Phoenicians. There are also Jewish clusters under YSC76 which are present in Southern Italy as well as one likely Arab cluster YSC76>ZS1585. This suggests that most of the J1 in Sicily arrived from Pre-Arabic Semites from the Levant, with the Arabic conquest only attributing a small amount.

The J1 Jews are in fact Jews, not sure what you're on about mate. J-Y3081 has a very clear association with the Central Semitic languages, especially it's NW Semitic descendants. It's certain that Y3081 and it's subclades were present in the Early Hebrews. The fact that many Jews in Europe and the Middle East carry this cluster is evidence that they are in fact descendants of the Hebrews.

The Arabs spread various clades with them, you can't connect it to one haplogroup. Under J1 the clades most connected to Arabs are FGC11>FGC12, there are other minor groups under YSC234 but those don't seem to be linked to the Proto-Arabs. The Arabs also spread clades under E-M34. M34 itself is also probably the "originally" Proto-Semitic haplogroup, with J1 arriving a little later and being absorbed.
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
Wrong!

Real genuine Mongols hated islam/arabs, don't know which ones you speak of

"From the head of the Mongol army, anxious to devastate the perfidious nation of the Saracens, with the good-will support of the Christian faith (...) so that you, who are the rulers of the coasts on the other side of the sea, endeavor to deny a refuge for the Infidels, your enemies and ours, by having your subjects diligently patrol the seas.
— Letter from Hulagu to Saint Louis."

Just to help you out:
Perfidious: deceitful, untrustworthy, evil etc
Saracens: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saracen

"Many new-born children in Italy were named after Mongol rulers, including Hulagu: names such as Can Grande ("Great Khan"), Alaone (Hulagu), Argone (Arghun), and Cassano (Ghazan) are recorded."

Also, in terms of south Europe how many mongol looking people do you see? Very very few, almost non existant, you actually see more in finland. How many syrian/iraqi/egyptian/arab looking men do you see in South europe? A whole lot more that's for sure, check out turkey, bulgaria and greece
Click to expand...
Man please, just stop

The Mongols didn't hate Islam. You're arguing that they hated Islam because of what a later Mongol (Ilkhanate) ruler said in regards to the Arabs (Saracens), whom he was at war with? Come on now. They didn't hate Islam, this is evident by the fact that 3/4 of the Mongol Khanates embraced Islam and made it the official religion since it was favoured by them. The 3 Khanates which embraced Islam were the Ilkhanate (Hulagu Khan was the Khan of this Khanate, though it was Buddhist under his rule), Golden Horde and Chagatai Khanate. The only Khanate which didn't embrace Islam was the Yuan dynasty.
You should also know that Genghis Khan himself had Muslim advisers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Mongol_Empire#Islam

The Turks and Mongols aren't the same thing. The original Turkic speakers were somewhat East Asian looking, but with their expansion across Western Asia they absorbed and mixed with the local inhabitants, hence the non-Asiatic appearance of many modern day Turks. The Turks and Mongols left no noticeable genetic input in Southern Europe so there isn't any reason to why they would look Asiatic. Arabs/Semites had no genetic input there either. If you really want to prove that there was genetic input from Arabs, show me Y-DNA or auDNA evidence. Don't talk about appearances, something which can often mean nothing (especially in the Balkans).
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
I didn't say it was just "rape", they had to stay there after killing the men and have several women slaves to themselves and have many kids. There is no way they managed to change the language of North African countries by just "raping women" and running off, they had to settle there and take the women for themselves, take peoples money, their land etc.
Click to expand...

How you imagine it was done does not matter. You are wrong for claiming that it happened so much that it transformed the Y-DNA of Central Asian populations, which it did not.

ShpataEMadhe said:
Only very few, an extensive test needs to be done in that region to find out more.
Click to expand...

So far, from Ancient DNA:
non-Arab J1 in Central Asia & Caucasus: "very few".
Arabic J1 in Central Asia & Caucasus: ZERO.


And here are some more than "very few" modern J1 NGS results from YFull (Turkey included in Central Asia & Caucasus):


[TABLE="width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Branch name[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Age[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Majority-Muslim Central Asia & Caucasus countries/regions[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Majority-Arabic countries[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-Y5353[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6300[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]35[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-S11710[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4800[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-S2872[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4800[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]35[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-ZS5658[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4600[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-FGC4745[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5600[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]48[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-BY74[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4600[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-FGC11[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4600[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]>1200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]J-Z18206[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4100[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]32[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So, over the last 4500 years, ~93% of Central Asian J1 NGS results have ZERO relatives among the thousands of NGS tested Arabs. Now either bring us dozens & hundreds of Central Asian & Caucasus J1 relating to Arabs in the last 1500 years, or stop the spewing non-sense like a repetitive nazi parrot.
 
Kelmendasi said:
Man please, just stop
The Mongols didn't hate Islam. You're arguing that they hated Islam because of what a later Mongol (Ilkhanate) ruler said in regards to the Arabs (Saracens), whom he was at war with? Come on now. They didn't hate Islam, this is evident by the fact that 3/4 of the Mongol Khanates embraced Islam and made it the official religion since it was favoured by them. The 3 Khanates which embraced Islam were the Ilkhanate (Hulagu Khan was the Khan of this Khanate, though it was Buddhist under his rule), Golden Horde and Chagatai Khanate. The only Khanate which didn't embrace Islam was the Yuan dynasty.
You should also know that Genghis Khan himself had Muslim advisers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Mongol_Empire#Islam
The Turks and Mongols aren't the same thing. The original Turkic speakers were somewhat East Asian looking, but with their expansion across Western Asia they absorbed and mixed with the local inhabitants, hence the non-Asiatic appearance of many modern day Turks. The Turks and Mongols left no noticeable genetic input in Southern Europe so there isn't any reason to why they would look Asiatic. Arabs/Semites had no genetic input there either. If you really want to prove that there was genetic input from Arabs, show me Y-DNA or auDNA evidence. Don't talk about appearances, something which can often mean nothing (especially in the Balkans).
Click to expand...

Are you serious right now? Read the quote, it sounds like mongols had a problem with Islam for a long time, someone doesn't just say what the leader of the mongols did out of the blue randomly one day. Also, read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine–Mongol_alliance

And yes TURKIC people are probably a mix of middle eastern and mongol but middle East would have had arab input from hundreds of years of complete control and conquest, turks and turcs are not the same thing.

History tells us that invading armies leave genetic input, how much depends on the people, whether they can flee to the suburbs or how tolerant they can be. The romans left genetic input everywhere, arabs left genetic input into all of North Africa and even spain/portugal, there is absolutely NO WAY they didn't leave anything in Middle East, NONE, you cannot be this deluded. We are talking about a time with small populations meaning it was a lot easier to change the dna of a "nation" early on

As for balkans, the slavs left genetic input all the way down to Greece, Bulgaria etc and they weren't even a big empire or massive army. What makes you think the osmans left nothing behind in South Europe with much bigger armies and far more wars, whether you don't think they didn't have Arab father lines like I think you cannot deny genetic input from so many years of conquest, so many men dying, so many people fleeing etc.

For me, most J1, T1a and a few sub clades of e1a/e1b was added to byzantine area from osman conquest, until you can tell me which haplogroups they spread but so far all you have done is deny all input even into middle East from arabs which is complete delusion. And yes I believe south europe would look more "white" today if there was no osman conquest, just not as blonde or ginger like North Europe. There are too many middle eastern looking people in South europe for me to believe the osmans were mongols, they were 100% middle eastern with some Arab father ancestors. Even though mongols had wars in anatolia just look at Turkey today, most of them look like middle eastern people, none look like mongols because mongols time there was short lived whereas osman wasn't

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Anatolia

Anyway, can you give me some numbers for Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iraq and other Arab league nations. I would be interested to see what their haplogroups are
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
Are you serious right now? Read the quote, it sounds like mongols had a problem with Islam for a long time, someone doesn't just say what the leader of the mongols did out of the blue randomly one day. Also, read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine–Mongol_alliance

And yes TURKIC people are probably a mix of middle eastern and mongol but middle East would have had arab input from hundreds of years of complete control and conquest, turks and turcs are not the same thing.

History tells us that invading armies leave genetic input, how much depends on the people, whether they can flee to the suburbs or how tolerant they can be. The romans left genetic input everywhere, arabs left genetic input into all of North Africa and even spain/portugal, there is absolutely NO WAY they didn't leave anything in Middle East, NONE, you cannot be this deluded. We are talking about a time with small populations meaning it was a lot easier to change the dna of a "nation" early on

As for balkans, the slavs left genetic input all the way down to Greece, Bulgaria etc and they weren't even a big empire or massive army. What makes you think the osmans left nothing behind in South Europe with much bigger armies and far more wars, whether you don't think they didn't have Arab father lines like I think you cannot deny genetic input from so many years of conquest, so many men dying, so many people fleeing etc.

For me, most J1, T1a and a few sub clades of e1a/e1b was added to byzantine area from osman conquest, until you can tell me which haplogroups they spread but so far all you have done is deny all input even into middle East from arabs which is complete delusion. And yes I believe south europe would look more "white" today if there was no osman conquest, just not as blonde or ginger like North Europe. There are too many middle eastern looking people in South europe for me to believe the osmans were mongols, they were 100% middle eastern with some Arab father ancestors. Even though mongols had wars in anatolia just look at Turkey today, most of them look like middle eastern people, none look like mongols because mongols time there was short lived whereas osman wasn't

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Anatolia

Anyway, can you give me some numbers for Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Iraq and other Arab league nations. I would be interested to see what their haplogroups are
Click to expand...
I can't be asked to deal with you. The evidence has been provided for you, if you're smart enough you'll be able to see it.
 
Kelmendasi said:
I can't be asked to deal with you. The evidence has been provided for you, if you're smart enough you'll be able to see it.
Click to expand...

Ok.

J2a-m67 is also found in Arab lands so maybe some of that would have been spread with Islamic conquests too

These as well:

J2a1-F3133 is found in Anatolia, Syria, Iran, Central Asia and Saudi Arabia

J2a1-PF5169 is a rare subclade that has been found in Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, southern Germany and England
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
Ok.

J2a-m67 is also found in Arab lands so maybe some of that would have been spread with Islamic conquests too

These as well:

J2a1-F3133 is found in Anatolia, Syria, Iran, Central Asia and Saudi Arabia

J2a1-PF5169 is a rare subclade that has been found in Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, southern Germany and England
Click to expand...
You do realise that these clades have TMRCAs of over 9,000 years, right?

Create a new thread if you're going to carry on talking about this, this thread has been completely derailed
 
Kelmendasi said:
You do realise that these clades have TMRCAs of over 9,000 years, right?
Create a new thread if you're going to carry on talking about this, this thread has been completely derailed
Click to expand...

Have none of these been found in middle east though, like at all? I don't believe that

Also j2b m205 definitely seems from osman conquest, it seems to have broken into cyprus, serbia (in particular close to the borders of Hungary where many wars took place) and bosnia/croatia at a fair percentage and seems lacking elsewhere in Europe. Probably from a few of their many soldiers who were recruited from all sorts of Middle Eastern backgrounds
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
Have none of these been found in middle east though, like at all? I don't believe that

Also j2b m205 definitely seems from osman conquest, it seems to have broken into cyprus, serbia (in particular close to the borders of Hungary where many wars took place) and bosnia/croatia at a fair percentage and seems lacking elsewhere in Europe. Probably from a few of their many soldiers who were recruited from all sorts of Middle Eastern backgrounds
Click to expand...
Well yes, but it means nothing if they share a TMRCA of over 3,000 years with the Middle Eastern samples. And this is the case for most of the samples.

And how is J-M205 in Europe definitely a result of Ottoman conquest, any evidence to back up your statement? The Serbian J-M205 samples fall under Y22059 for the most part, the connection between this cluster and the Middle Eastern ones is 5,000 years old judging by Yfull. So already your Medieval expansion theory seems very unlikely. As for location, most these Serbs are from Bosnia or Krajina as far as I know. Many of them also seem to have Montenegrin origin from the Krici clan which was originally a Vlach clan. There are also 2 Albanians (from Kosovo and Malesia e Madhe) that are under Y22059 and are distant from the Serbs and other South Slavs, so they don't have any recent relation. Their relation seems to be at least 1,000 years old.

Despite the distant relation between Y22059 and the Middle Eastern clans, we can assume that it arrived to the Balkans from the Middle East based on the distribution of other M205 clades. However, an arrival during the Ottoman conquest makes very little sense. It far more likely that it arrived during the Roman or Byzantine times and that they originally spoke a Central Semitic language (perhaps belonging to the Canaanite branch). They were most probably Latin speaking when they arrived in the Balkans and were then assimilated by locals and then Slavs.
 
I would advice to ignore this TR0LL ShpataeMadhe, guy has mental issues. Also by getting 5-6 negatives per reply its obvious others are realizing this also.
I have read few of his posts before, its not worth to debate with someone who has such a low knowledge and who is filled with various propagandas and conspiracy theories. He is just confused.
 
Dema said:
I would advice to ignore this TR0LL ShpataeMadhe, guy has mental issues. Also by getting 5-6 negatives per reply its obvious others are realizing this also.
I have read few of his posts before, its not worth to debate with someone who has such a low knowledge and who is filled with various propagandas and conspiracy theories. He is just confused.
Click to expand...

Mental issues as in I want to find out why so many middle eastern looking people in South Europe, ok. Have you ever been to Bulgaria before? Go visit sometime

Are you another one of those deluded people who think the arabs did nothing in the middle east, they just snapped their fingers and magically everyone started speaking the same language. For some dumb ass reason they were only interested in sex when in North Africa and Spain/Portugal according to you.
Read some real history and try to understand what happened in the past

A lot of the "smaller" sub clades you see in South Europe today are from osman conquest, they set up garrisons all over the place

Explain this amount of j1 in Serbs I think, can't read the language but I think it is serbian dna project. Bear in mind that the ratio doesn't make sense for that much J1 to be pre osman conquest because they have only 1% r1b and not enough e1b or j2b to explain the ratio. Not to mention the graph doesn't say which j2b or e1b they have, do you have the full data?

http://i.imgur.com/8p5XcVn.png
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
Explain this amount of j1 in Serbs I think, can't read the language but I think it is serbian dna project. Bear in mind that the ratio doesn't make sense for that much J1 to be pre osman conquest because they have only 1% r1b and not enough e1b or j2b to explain the ratio. Not to mention the graph doesn't say which j2b or e1b they have, do you have the full data?

http://i.imgur.com/8p5XcVn.png
Click to expand...
If you don't know what it is or what it shows then don't post. The graph shows the Y-DNA percentages of Serbs from Bosnia, it's from 2016 and the sample size is only 97 so it isn't very accurate. More recent results show that Serbs from Bosnia have around 2-3% R1b and even less J1. Serbs as a whole have around 6.5% R1b. Ratios mean little to nothing, stop typing nonsense.
 
Kelmendasi said:
If you don't know what it is or what it shows then don't post. The graph shows the Y-DNA percentages of Serbs from Bosnia, it's from 2016 and the sample size is only 97 so it isn't very accurate. More recent results show that Serbs from Bosnia have around 2-3% R1b and even less J1. Serbs as a whole have around 6.5% R1b. Ratios mean little to nothing, stop typing nonsense.
Click to expand...

The j1 ratio is still too high, compare it to people around them with high r1b and low j1. Why would ratio mean nothing and how does data being from 2016 mean it is innacurate? That my friend, is utter nonsense
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
The j1 ratio is still too high, compare it to people around them with high r1b and low j1. Why would ratio mean nothing and how does data being from 2016 mean it is innacurate? That my friend, is utter nonsense
Click to expand...
Reasoning with you is pointless
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
...................
Click to expand...

You really know zilch about genetics dude. Please, take a seat and think about all the precious time you wasted. Go get a DNA test. I will laugh if you get J1. Using your stunted logic, you may just commit suicide at the idea. Kelmendasi knows a world more about genetics than you. Its like a high school dropout arguing with a college grad on the importance of education.
 
ShpataEMadhe said:
Mental issues
Click to expand...



Because you were spamming this thread with lots of disinformations and lies about J2-M205.


Also most of stuff that Kelmendasi wrote about J2-M205 are disinformations or simply outdated theories that are discarded these days.

I wont answer to any of you because as its obvious this is J1 section and not J2 section. It would be direct spam and i would ask few of you Albanians that like to write like that to consider your behavior and start to behave more mature.

I opened J2-M205 thread in Eupedia and you are free to write anything there or ask questions, but dont spam J1 thread with J2b out of a sky for no reason.
Or best of all would be if you guys would not mention J2-M205 at all.


@ShpataEmadhe, now please tell me that you are not tested at all?? Also i havent seen your picture in classification thread since you like to comment so much on other people look?
 
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