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Genetic study The POPGEN project: building a French reference panel of genomes

HereToLearn said:
Any impact of the Greek colonies on broadly Southern France, in particular the area of Marseille, would definitely be an interesting topic to investigate. But the reported similarity here is of South-Eastern France (up almost to the borders with Switzerland) with "TSI", not with Greeks. As to my "theory" above which is not even a theory but just my two cents, I know very well that Tuscans (TSI) are not Ligurians yet they would be a better match to the latter than the Greeks.
Click to expand...

Yes, and Marseille is part of South-Eastern France. Also, genetic distance to modern Tuscans is being used as simply an arbitrary reference population chosen to represent central Italians - not some sort of documentation of direct contribution or admixture from Tuscany (which I think is historically rather unlikely). It's quite clear that northern Italians show closer autosomal relation as you've mentioned. I historically, I would presume Ligurian and later Roman influence would be primary vectors for Italian influence as you've mentioned. This however doesn't exclude the possibility of some Greek contribution, just as there may be also a minority of what is ultimately Greek ancestry in many modern northern Italians as well.

HereToLearn said:
On the other hand if you are implying that the Greek genetic profile is practically indistinguishable from that of Tuscans (which is highly debateable), then the same "TSI" (which in fact would be Greek, or the same as Greek) affinity should show up also in Empuries and other Greek colonies of the Western Mediterranean.
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I'm not sure why you seem to think this considering the topic of Tuscans was something you have injected into the conversation, not myself. I don't think it's a huge stretch of logic to say that part of the elevated Caucasian ancestry of the modern southern french may not just come from Italian colonization but also the historically documented Greek city states of Southern France. Ancient Greek profiles (at least those we have so far) are mostly rather distinguishable from modern C. Italians with perhaps but a few exceptions, but I fail to see how this idea relates as I'm not advocating some sort of 100% genetic turnover of Celtic populations.
 
Vitruvius said:
Yes, and Marseille is part of South-Eastern France. Also, genetic distance to modern Tuscans is being used as simply an arbitrary reference population chosen to represent central Italians - not some sort of documentation of direct contribution or admixture from Tuscany (which I think is historically rather unlikely). It's quite clear that northern Italians show closer autosomal relation as you've mentioned. I historically, I would presume Ligurian and later Roman influence would be primary vectors for Italian influence as you've mentioned. This however doesn't exclude the possibility of some Greek contribution, just as there may be also a minority of what is ultimately Greek ancestry in many modern northern Italians as well.



I'm not sure why you seem to think this considering the topic of Tuscans was something you have injected into the conversation, not myself. I don't think it's a huge stretch of logic to say that part of the elevated Caucasian ancestry of the modern southern french may not just come from Italian colonization but also the historically documented Greek city states of Southern France. Ancient Greek profiles (at least those we have so far) are mostly rather distinguishable from modern C. Italians with perhaps but a few exceptions, but I fail to see how this idea relates as I'm not advocating some sort of 100% genetic turnover of Celtic populations.
Click to expand...
I would argue that Marseille is as Southern France as it gets with almost the same distance from the Italian and Spanish borders (closer to the Italian but not in a significant way), so almost in the middle. But let's not focus on details. If anything this goes to strenghthen emphasis on the Greek presence in Southern France since Marseille was a fully developed Greek polis inhabited by Greek colonists - Phocaeans from Western Anatolia - hence not just a trading outpost. I have serious doubts the same can be said for Marseille's "subcolonies" in the rest of Southern France (Hyères, Agde, Antipolis, equally distributed from the south-east to the south-west).

So we agree on almost everything except on the magnitude of actual Greek genetic footprint in Southern France, whether it's big enough to be detected as of today. Also, the indigenous peoples would not only be Celts, but also Iberians to the west and Ligurians to the east (with certain areas of overlap I'm sure).
 
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HereToLearn said:
I would argue that Marseille is as Southern France as it gets with almost the same distance from the Italian and Spanish borders (closer to the Italian but not in a significant way), so almost in the middle. But let's not focus on details. If anything this goes to strenghthen emphasis on the Greek presence in Southern France since Marseille was a fully developed Greek polis inhabited by Greek colonists - Phocaeans from Western Anatolia - hence not just a trading outpost. I have serious doubts the same can be said for Marseille's "subcolonies" in the rest of Southern France (Hyères, Agde, Antipolis, equally distributed from the south-east to the south-west).

So we agree on almost everything except on the magnitude of actual Greek genetic footprint in Southern France, whether it's big enough to be detected as of today. Also, the indigenous peoples would not only be Celts, but also Iberians to the west and Ligurians to the east (with certain areas of overlap I'm sure).
Click to expand...
Whatever the depth of local ancestry required by these studies, I think more recent and repetitive events of Italian immigration since the Middle Ages (more or less dense according to periods, have strengthened the proximity of the SE France region (Provence, Niçois provinces) to the Italian population. On an other side, I doubt the Greek input has perdured through the centuries. Maybe some Greeklike input is due to southern Italians. Todate, almost half of the "local" pop has Italian surnames in Provence (Var, Bouches du Rhône, Vaucluse) and 80% in Niçois (Alpes Maritimes).
 
HereToLearn said:
I would argue that Marseille is as Southern France as it gets with almost the same distance from the Italian and Spanish borders (closer to the Italian but not in a significant way), so almost in the middle. But let's not focus on details. If anything this goes to strenghthen emphasis on the Greek presence in Southern France since Marseille was a fully developed Greek polis inhabited by Greek colonists - Phocaeans from Western Anatolia - hence not just a trading outpost. I have serious doubts the same can be said for Marseille's "subcolonies" in the rest of Southern France (Hyères, Agde, Antipolis, equally distributed from the south-east to the south-west).

So we agree on almost everything except on the magnitude of actual Greek genetic footprint in Southern France, whether it's big enough to be detected as of today. Also, the indigenous peoples would not only be Celts, but also Iberians to the west and Ligurians to the east (with certain areas of overlap I'm sure).
Click to expand...
Whatever the depth of local ancestry required by these studies, I think more recent and repetitive events of Italian immigration since the Middle Ages (more or less dense according to periods, have strengthened the proximity of the SE France region (Provence, Niçois provinces) to the Italian population. On an other side, I doubt the Greek input has perdured through the centuries. Maybe some Greeklike input is due to southern Italians. Todate, almost half of the "local" pop has Italian surnames in Provence (Var, Bouches du Rhône, Vaucluse) and 80% in Niçois (Alpes Maritimes).
 
HereToLearn said:
I would argue that Marseille is as Southern France as it gets with almost the same distance from the Italian and Spanish borders (closer to the Italian but not in a significant way), so almost in the middle. But let's not focus on details. If anything this goes to strenghthen emphasis on the Greek presence in Southern France since Marseille was a fully developed Greek polis inhabited by Greek colonists - Phocaeans from Western Anatolia - hence not just a trading outpost. I have serious doubts the same can be said for Marseille's "subcolonies" in the rest of Southern France (Hyères, Agde, Antipolis, equally distributed from the south-east to the south-west).

So we agree on almost everything except on the magnitude of actual Greek genetic footprint in Southern France, whether it's big enough to be detected as of today. Also, the indigenous peoples would not only be Celts, but also Iberians to the west and Ligurians to the east (with certain areas of overlap I'm sure).
Click to expand...
Whatever the depth of local ancestry required by these studies, I think more recent and repetitive events of Italian immigration since the Middle Ages (more or less dense according to periods, have strengthened the proximity of the SE France region (Provence, Niçois provinces) to the Italian population. On an other side, I doubt the Greek input has perdured through the centuries. Maybe some Greeklike input is due to southern Italians. Todate, almost half of the "local" pop has Italian surnames in Provence (Var, Bouches du Rhône, Vaucluse) and 80% in Niçois (Alpes Maritimes).
MOESAN said:
Whatever the depth of local ancestry required by these studies, I think more recent and repetitive events of Italian immigration since the Middle Ages (more or less dense according to periods, have strengthened the proximity of the SE France region (Provence, Niçois provinces) to the Italian population. On an other side, I doubt the Greek input has perdured through the centuries. Maybe some Greeklike input is due to southern Italians. Todate, almost half of the "local" pop has Italian surnames in Provence (Var, Bouches du Rhône, Vaucluse) and 80% in Niçois (Alpes Maritimes).
Click to expand...
I add that a respectable amount of the Italian names came from Corsica.
 
MOESAN said:
Todate, almost half of the "local" pop has Italian surnames in Provence (Var, Bouches du Rhône, Vaucluse) and 80% in Niçois (Alpes Maritimes).
Click to expand...
Interesting, I'm quite familiar with the Nice area and I see a lot of Italian surnames around but I didn't think the percentage was so high. As you say a lot is also due to Medieval interactions, not coincidentally Monaco's ruling family were merchants (or rather pirates) from Genoa...
 
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HereToLearn said:
Interesting, I'm quite familiar with the Nice area and I see a lot of Italian surnames around but I didn't think the percentage was so high. As you say a lot is also due to Medieval interactions, not coincidentally Monaco's ruling family were merchants (or rather pirates) from Genoa...
Click to expand...
another survey, not so precise, based on birthplaces of people treated in hospitals in Bordeaux, Dijon and Montpelliers
HereToLearn said:
Interesting, I'm quite familiar with the Nice area and I see a lot of Italian surnames around but I didn't think the percentage was so high. As you say a lot is also due to Medieval interactions, not coincidentally Monaco's ruling family were merchants (or rather pirates) from Genoa...
Click to expand...

here a map:
1772139743770.png
 
MOESAN said:
another survey, not so precise, based on birthplaces of people treated in hospitals in Bordeaux, Dijon and Montpelliers


here a map:
View attachment 19279
Click to expand...
other maps with two levels of clustering, of an other survey which I 'll search the references:

1772139863461.png
 
MOESAN said:
another survey, not so precise, based on birthplaces of people treated in hospitals in Bordeaux, Dijon and Montpelliers


here a map:
View attachment 19279
Click to expand...
other maps with two levels of clustering, of an other survey which I 'll search the references:

View attachment 19280
 
MOESAN said:
another survey, not so precise, based on birthplaces of people treated in hospitals in Bordeaux, Dijon and Montpelliers


here a map:
View attachment 19279
Click to expand...
other maps with two levels of clustering, of an other survey which I 'll search the references:

View attachment 19280
MOESAN said:
other maps with two levels of clustering, of an other survey which I 'll search the references:

View attachment 19280
Click to expand...
1772139939652.png
 
MOESAN said:
other maps with two levels of clustering, of an other survey which I 'll search the references:

View attachment 19280

View attachment 19281
Click to expand...
an other survey only about western France too - I can explain the maps if you want (it isn't always so evident)

View attachment 19288
MOESAN said:
an other survey only about western France too - I can explain the maps if you want (it isn't always so evident)

View attachment 19288
Click to expand...
MOESAN said:
an other survey only about western France too - I can explain the maps if you want (it isn't always so evident)

View attachment 19288

View attachment 19289
Click to expand...
1772229447795.png
 
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