Genetic study The arrival of the Near Eastern ancestry in Central Italy predates the onset of the Roman Empire

[Vitruvius]

Charts C and D show how alike are modern Italians and Greeks.

Una faccia una razza.

 

[Vallicanus]

veneto and friuli are venetic tribes they are trading with liburnian island traders since the late bronze-age.....usually grain from veneto for liburnian wine from Issa (Viz)....picenes as their history states also traded with Liburnians from trading towns of Tronto and Martinscuro, to name 2.
there is no way that i will dismiss Liburnian contribution to the adriatic italians.

we have already discussed the heel of Italy and the Messapics.....if they are Greek in origin, then i am in error.
when the Romans took Durres during the hannibal war, might be the first time a roman-greek mix occurred.

as for myself...proud to be from italy, but do not try to thrown any greek on me when it does not exist....same with slavic

The Venetic language is more closely related to Latin than to Illyrian.

 

[torzio]

the venetic language is part of the faliscan group, same group as the romans....
we have NO illyrian language....we have no idea if the illyrian tribes spoke anything similar to each other.
they could even have spoken a old-italic substream language...with the centuries of liburnian and venetic trading plus picene and liburnian, they must have had something similar in syntax of language......we will never know

you seem to be going down the "random stream ".......path

 

[Vallicanus]

the venetic language is part of the faliscan group, same group as the romans....
we have NO illyrian language....we have no idea if the illyrian tribes spoke anything similar to each other.
they could even have spoken a old-italic substream language...with the centuries of liburnian and venetic trading plus picene and liburnian, they must have had something similar in syntax of language......we will never know

you seem to be going down the "random stream ".......path

Well, give us your take on the ancient ethnic origins of modern Veneto people.

 

[HereToLearn]

It would've been a similar phenomenon to the rest of C. Italy. They were effectively swamped with an Aegean genetic structure during the early empire and then later likely diluted to their current position by an influx of northern Italians in late antiquity and the middle ages. My presumption is that the northern Italian outlier is not a continuation of local Picene ancestry but someone from Po Valley or the alps.

That is something we can hopefully confirm or not with future testing.

 

[HereToLearn]

Una faccia una razza.

With all due respect to Greeks, that is a statement I've always found overrated.

I'm not saying there is not phenotypical overlap, there is and to a significant extent. It's that a significant overlap exists with quite a few European ethnic groups and it often goes in accordance with geography (i.e. people from Piemonte will overlap with Southern French more than with Greeks, Lombards will overlap with Ticinese more than with Greeks, etc.), the only exception occurring in Alto Adige with a stark difference in frequency of purely Nordic types between ethnic Italians and ethnic Austrians.

 

[Vallicanus]

With all due respect to Greeks, that is a statement I've always found overrated.

I'm not saying there is not phenotypical overlap, there is and to a significant extent. It's that a significant overlap exists with quite a few European ethnic groups and it often goes in accordance with geography (i.e. people from Piemonte will overlap with Southern French more than with Greeks, Lombards will overlap with Ticinese more than with Greeks, etc.), the only exception occurring in Alto Adige with a stark difference in frequency of purely Nordic types between ethnic Italians and ethnic Austrians.

I was referring to charts C and D in Jovialis' post 145 which, apart from Sardinia with its greater Anatolian Neolithic and lesser EHG,
show that the various Italian and Greek areas, while not identical, overlap quite a bit.

 

[Vallicanus]

With all due respect to Greeks, that is a statement I've always found overrated.

I'm not saying there is not phenotypical overlap, there is and to a significant extent. It's that a significant overlap exists with quite a few European ethnic groups and it often goes in accordance with geography (i.e. people from Piemonte will overlap with Southern French more than with Greeks, Lombards will overlap with Ticinese more than with Greeks, etc.), the only exception occurring in Alto Adige with a stark difference in frequency of purely Nordic types between ethnic Italians and ethnic Austrians.

The Arpitan- and Occitan-speaking areas of north and west Piedmont (with the Aosta Valley) resemble Provence genetically but the east and south of Piedmont are closer to Lombardy and Liguria respectively.

 

[HereToLearn]

I was referring to charts C and D in Jovialis' post 145 which, apart from Sardinia with its greater Anatolian Neolithic and lesser EHG,
show that the various Italian and Greek areas, while not identical, overlap quite a bit.

Sorry for making myself not so clear I was talking about phenotype, casually commenting the saying "una faccia una razza".

 

[Pax Augusta]

This was linked by Franscesco, who took it from Nrken on X. It is an abstract from an upcoming study. There's a thread on it somewhere on eupedia. Other users who are paying attention can vouch for this:

Here it seems that they are using the Etruscan samples from Felsina/Bologna, published so far in a doctoral thesis from 2023, in a newly dedicated study.

I wonder, but does this new study have anything to do with it?

 

[MOESAN]

The only reason is that the Indo-European Italic people were those who had the Near Eastern ancestry, Etruscans and other non-Indo-European people were natives.

Always with your old theories?
Firstly, Near Eastern is a too unprecise term - secondly the Italic languages formed surely in Central Europe in an estern post-BB background, what doesn't exclude they could have had some blood drops of your "Near-Eastern" - (what kind? Anatolians dominant? Iranians dominant? Levantines dominant? A mix of 2 of them or of the 3?...) - but at a very low level, and not inherited from the first Italic speakers.

 

[Jovialis]

Here it seems that they are using the Etruscan samples from Felsina/Bologna, published so far in a doctoral thesis from 2023, in a newly dedicated study.

I wonder, but does this new study have anything to do with it?

We see that some academics use "Near East" to refer to "Non-steppe-related CHG/Iran_N". I personally believe it is likely Greeks from Southern Italy that brought it to the North in Roman times. There was also Non-steppe-related CHG/Iran_N in southern Italy before the arrival of the Greeks, so I would assume it is a formative component from the beginning, likely brought by earlier Neolithic/ChL and EBA Helladic people in the Balkans/Greece. The author of the study of this thread wrote this to me on X:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1844009279524839633

 

[torzio]

Well, give us your take on the ancient ethnic origins of modern Veneto people.

i have no idea...plus
do not care about migration from imperial roman times

 

[Vallicanus]

i have no idea...plus
do not care about migration from imperial roman times

Why Not?

 

[Jovialis]

i have no idea...plus
do not care about migration from imperial roman times

This is what you are not understanding,

You cannot be Italic, plus Germanic/Celtic, otherwise you would not be genetically a modern Venetian.

 

[Vitruvius]

That is something we can hopefully confirm or not with future testing.

Totally agree. The current sample size is low.

With all due respect to Greeks, that is a statement I've always found overrated.

I'm not saying there is not phenotypical overlap, there is and to a significant extent. It's that a significant overlap exists with quite a few European ethnic groups and it often goes in accordance with geography (i.e. people from Piemonte will overlap with Southern French more than with Greeks, Lombards will overlap with Ticinese more than with Greeks, etc.), the only exception occurring in Alto Adige with a stark difference in frequency of purely Nordic types between ethnic Italians and ethnic Austrians.

I see a lot of similarities between the Greeks and Italians, similar to how I view Swedes and Norwegians. They are separate nations, certainly, but very closely genetically related with a closely tied history.
Ticinese are simply other Italians so of course they overlap with Lombards. This is no surprise. The city was controlled by Milan, historically, and Ticino has been inhabited by Italics since at least the iron age according to Polybius.

The Piemontese do overlap Northern Greeks more so than southern french, although the distance between the two is not excessive.

 

[torzio]

This is what you are not understanding,

You cannot be Italic, plus Germanic/Celtic, otherwise you would not be genetically a modern Venetian.

we agreed these admixture calcs for oneself from companies are flawed and now you accept these results....make up your mind
and
which in your eyes is accurate

 

[Jovialis]

we agreed these admixture calcs for oneself from companies are flawed and now you accept these results....make up your mind
and
which in your eyes is accurate

Direct-to-consumer DNA tests (i.e. AncestryDNA, 23andme, etc.) are done on the basis of modern DNA. We are talking about ancient DNA studies.

"Italian" in these Direct-to-consumer DNA tests has all of those past admixture events baked into them for the most part.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Totally agree. The current sample size is low.

I see a lot of similarities between the Greeks and Italians, similar to how I view Swedes and Norwegians. They are separate nations, certainly, but very closely genetically related with a closely tied history.
Ticinese are simply other Italians so of course they overlap with Lombards. This is no surprise. The city was controlled by Milan, historically, and Ticino has been inhabited by Italics since at least the iron age according to Polybius.

The Piemontese do overlap Northern Greeks more so than southern french, although the distance between the two is not excessive.
View attachment 16901

To be honest, the Piedmontese sample on the G25 is from Val Borbera, in the far southeastern corner of Piedmont, and where I think they speak more Ligurian than Piedmontese (but I'm not sure about that). Thus, an area more similar to northern Ligurians and northwesterns Emilians than to Piedmontese in the Alps. While the Southern French on G25 is most likely a sample near the Spanish border.

The similarity between Italians and Greeks is due to various reasons, and it does not always mean that they have completely similar origins. The uniparental markers are only partly the same. As I know the thesis that modern Greeks, particularly continental Greeks, had medieval influences from the north, which are called Slavic but could well be something more generically Balkan, and are further north than Iron Age Greeks has not yet been fully disproved.

Many of you, though of Italian ancestry, were born and raised abroad. I was born and raised in Italy, and honestly today the relationship between Italy and Greece is almost inexistent, even the history of Italy and Greece is separated by many centuries. On TV you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times Italian TV talks about something happening in Greece. Today there are more Italians living in Spain and Portugal than in Greece. Italy in recent decades has perhaps had more relations with Albania than with Greece.

Certainly Norway and Sweden have greater relations even today than Italy and Greece do. Identity is not something that is constructed on the basis of a DNA test. It may happen in the U.S., but it is unlikely to happen in Europe.

Ticinese people are certainly ethnically Italian, they are fully aware of this, but other than that they would never dream of switching to Italy they have lived in a multilingual and multi-ethnic context such as Switzerland for centuries.

 

[torzio]

that is all from ancestry