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To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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First, Monterou and Encrusted Pottery has nothing to with Balkan-Carpathian groups from East Serbia-West Bulgaria and South Carpathians like Tei, Verbicoara and other related groups, also the sampling for these related groups is near zero, since they cremated their death.

Secondly, now you went too far by even saying couple of V13 in Balkans might not be Slavic, if not an exaggeration then what is it?

You can freely check any independent databse and V13 doesn't exceed 2-3% in any Central-North Slavic countries. Likely in Ukraine/Russia they were Byzantine traders/priests/mercenaries etc, etc, etc.

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying, because I just implied that there was a split of Dacian lineages which moved to Slavs early and to the Balkans in Late Antiquity, probably even overlapping to some degree on the time table, without having a direct connection to each other after that.
Those which moved to the Balkans, of those lineages, which branched from those ending up in Slavs, were never Slavic and moved to the Balkans before the Slavs, but with the resettled Daco-Romans and Free Dacians. There is however the possibility that some were brought by Slavs, but that wasn't my main point, but rather that we deal with independent movements of E-V13 lineages coming from the same Dacian tribes, one time with Romans, another with Free Dacians and a third time with Slavs.

The other thing is that we have samples from EBA Bulgaria which point to a population similar to Monteoru, part of the Danubian block, high in WHG, high in I2.

We also have dozens of samples from Encrusted Pottery in Hungary, Northern Croatia, and one from the Balkans too, all having the same profile autosomally and one group - the Balkan sample was I2 too! So we got the confirmation that Encrusted pottery had one autosomal profile and this profile spread into the Pre-Channelled Ware area of Northern Bulgaria with Garla Mare. This is no conjecture, but a proven reality.
So we have people from earlier and later periods which were both I2+G2 and WHG-rich in Bulgaria, plus the R-Z93 steppe groups on top and Greco-Anatolian influences in the South. That's all confirmed and known by now, that's the pre-Channelled Ware situation.

The cremating groups which moved in, at different points in time, into Bulgaria, were all connected, which includes Belegis and Verbicoara. Vartop for example is Channelled Ware on top of Garla mare.

Both Paracin and Zimnicea-Cerkovna too came in from the relative North, and kind of preceded the main Channelled Ware expansion - whether they were E-V13 heavy or not, whether they were directly related to G?va or not, they came from groups of the North Balkans Southward:

Sites-with-globular-beakers-of-the-Zimnicea-Cherkovna-Plovdiv-and-Paracin-types.png



Alongside pottery considered characteristic of the
Brnjica group, there is also pottery of different styles
recorded alongside Brnjica sherds at sites in all re-
gions of this group. These present features of other,
older, pottery traditions from this same region. Such
finds are also found in neighbouring areas, such as
sites where Paraćin group pottery dominates.
These
older forms are primarily characterised by their orna-
ments in the form of incised spirals or rectilinear mo-
tifs, rows of triangular or oblique punctate dots, often
filled with white incrustation. They may also have in-
cised lines that form geometric motifs, inscribed or
hatched triangles or deltoids, and incised strips filled
with double rows of punctate dots. These ornaments,
both in technique and motifs, are very close to pottery
from the Oltenia lowlands and the region between the
Balkan Mountains and the Danube in the Middle and
Late Bronze Ages.
They have been recorded in several
of the pottery groups in the area, and there may be an
element of these being defined differently by different
authors, variously called Balta Sarata, Verbicioara,
Govora, Cherkovna, Zimnichea?Plovdiv, Tei
IV.17

So there is no doubt about their origin from around Oltenia, and this might help to understand why later Channelled Ware could so easily spread on top of them, in my opinion because we deal with related people, especially if combining the pottery style and other elements of their culture with cremation. Tei is an outlier in this respect, and I consider it closer to Monteoru. But in its late phase, it was largely being taken over by the cremating groups from Verbicora, which created the Govora horizon. There are a few small remains which practised inhumation, but if those get tested, I doubt they represent the main block of Govora, which was clearly Verbicoara shifted - which however can't be easily tested because they burnt their dead.

Therefore this is a possible early entry point for some groups, but the safe starting point is definitely with Channelled Ware:

From a chronological perspec-
tive, it is important that this channel decoration has
not yet been found on sites dated to the early phase of
the Brnjica group (Br C?C/D), such as Svinjarička
Čuka, Medijana and Svinji?te.24 The earliest appear-
ance of channel decoration in the area of the Brnjica
group is recorded in Končulj (Pl. IV/2, 3), in a context
dated to the 13 th century calBC
(Tab. 1). At Končulj,
the channelled ornaments are reminiscent of those on
the pottery of Middle Bronze Age groups in southern
Pannonia and Late Bronze Age groups in western Ser-
bia. That said, the vessel shapes on which this occurs
in the Ju?na Morava basin have few if any similarities
with the vessels of the LBA in western Serbia. 25
The semi-globular channel-decorated deep bowl from
Končulj (Pl. IV/2) has its closest analogies in the Balta
Sarata IV group in southern Transylvania, which also
dates to the 13 th century BC.
26

Interestingly, the author points to similarities with the Wietenberg culture:


A bowl very similar to
the S-profiled bowl with two handles and short chan-
nel decoration elements on the belly from Končulj
(Pl. IV/3) was discovered in a LBA grave in Dobrača,
?umadija.27 These vessels, mostly bowls with bellies
decorated with wide, oblique channel decoration, close-
ly reminiscent of the bowls with twisted bellies char-
acteristic of the Brnjica group, are very common in the
Wietenberg group in Transylvania.28 Channel deco-
ration as a decorative device was present in this group
from the end of the Early Bronze Age
(phase A).29
Channel decoration executed in a similar manner
to that found on Brnjica vessels was recorded on ves-
sels from the late phase C of the Wietenberg group,
which corresponds to the end of the period Br C in
Central European chronology. 30 Other analogies with
the pottery of the Wietenberg group can be observed
in this group, including handles with plastic exten-
sions at the apex, spiral ornaments, incised or hatched
triangles, and double rows of opposite triangular
punctates. 31 Other features known from the Wieten-
berg group include series of punctates (*****-marks),
as seen on sherds from the sites of Svinjarička Čuka
(Pl. I/1?4, 9?12) and Mediana (Pl. II/4, 5, 10, 11, 14),
and other sites where Brnjica group pottery is domi-
nant in assemblages.32
Oblique channel decoration is also a common mo-
tif on pottery at LBA sites in the south-eastern part of
the Carpathian Basin, and dates from the end of 16 th
to the early 13th century calBC
.33

Not just ceramic, but also weaponry, especially Naue II-Reutlingen type swords and casted, especially flame shaped spearheads:

By the end of the 13 th and the beginning of the
12 th century BC, a large number of bronze finds were
periodically being deposited in the Morava?Vardar
corridor. Some of the metalwork types originated from
western regions of the Balkans and the Pannonian Plain
as well as from Central Europe. A few Reutlingen-
type swords that had been developed by communities
in the Po Valley and Pannonian Plain are known along
the Morava?Vardar/Axios communication corridor.99
The sword was developed by Br D at the latest, and it
appeared in the Central Balkans before the end of the
13th century BC, which is clear from bronze hoards in
the Pannonian Plain. 100 When we look at the wider
area of the interior of the Central Balkans, specimens
were found at Tekija near Paraćin,101 Golemo Selo 102
and Pudarnica 103 near Vranje, an inhumation grave
from Donja Brnjica, 104 Lakavica, 105 Delčevo106 and
Mirovo (variant Konju?a). 107 This latter example is
dated to Ha A2 and is exclusively connected with the
area of the north part of western Serbia and Mačva. 108
Analysis of tin isotopes δ124 showed that the swords
from Golemo S e lo near Vranje and another from
Maovo in the southwest Pannonian Plain have similar
values (0.21 and 0.28) to each other and the sickle,
pin and axe discussed above.
109
Parallel to the appearance of Reutlingen swords,
the so-called flame shaped spearhead was also intro-
duced in Ha A1. This had no predecessors in the MBA
Central Balkans, and its distribution is similar to the
swords.
110 Examples come from an urn from the cem-
etery in Gornja Stra?ava,111 from the settlement of
Velika Humska Čuka112 and Malič at Lake Ohrid
.113


https://www.researchgate.net/public...onze_age_Central_Balkans_in_light_of_new_data

Therefore we have an earlier expansion of related groups from the Carpatho-Balkan block to the South, spreading cremation and specific ceramic, and a later, the biggest and most massive expansion being with Channelled Ware, which introduced not just new ceramic but also a whole range of weaponry, like especially Reutlingen swords and casted, flame shaped spearheads.
Now these finds go down all the way to Lake Ohrid, and I would say that some E-V13 should have been in place latest with those movements of the LBA-EIA.

However, that's not the end of the story, because as I explained before, there were multiple later movements as well, most notably, the resettlement of the Daco-Romans and Free Dacian tribal people in particular, which reached a peak in Late Antiquity. Their late entry point was a bonus, because of the catastrophic and weak Roman demography. They replaced earlier inhabitants of much of Moesia in particular.
 
The like you got is unintentional from my side.

You will be proven wrong on your persistence of North Carpathian. Your reasoning is partial application of deduction, if for you Bulgaria is a no-go because Monterou was WHG which anyway wasn't even important for latter Central-Eastern Balkans, then you can imagine North Carpathians. WHG saw a resurgance during EBA, it was not natural to see people with such high WHG autosomal in Carpathians let alone deep in Balkans.

Yet, after LBA turbulences you see them gone.
 
The like you got is unintentional from my side.

You will be proven wrong on your persistence of North Carpathian. Your reasoning is partial application of deduction, if for you Bulgaria is a no-go because Monterou was WHG which anyway wasn't even important for latter Central-Eastern Balkans, then you can imagine North Carpathians. WHG saw a resurgance during EBA, it was not natural to see people with such high WHG autosomal in Carpathians let alone deep in Balkans.

Yet, after LBA turbulences you see them gone.

We don't know when exactly WHG was going down before Post-Psenichevo. When and why exactly it was reduced is unknown.
And my main reasoning is the rapid expansion of first cremation and later Channelled Ware, with the Carpatho-Balkan cremation block being the only formation with the right time table for the E-V13 phylogeny and big enough to carry a large enough population.
 
From: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...ent-day-Poland&p=939012&viewfull=1#post939012

The good thing for E is, that most of the unrealistic results end up in very different branches which are fairly unlikely to have appeared in Europe. Therefore the possible to likely results are - all E-V13 (one presumably):
PCA0327: Total SNPs: 1159
Result (60.9% 14 -0 +9): E-L618

PCA0340: Total SNPs: 2709
Result (43.1% 31 -3 +20): E-CTS1273

PCA0400: Total SNPs: 16295
Result (71.7% 157 -5 +41): E-BY5965

Which equals to about more than 3 % for E-V13 which I consider coming from Daco-Thracians/Channelled Ware from the Southern fringe.

This one might be a wrong one, or just bad coverage (of the four E's by far the worst coverage) but in fact E-V13 too:
PCA0137: Total SNPs: 868
Result (45.5% 5 -0 +6): E-M4279

J1:
PCA0311: Total SNPs: 2123
Result (53.6% 18 -1 +10): J-CTS1026

One J-L283 (Illyrian-related):
PCA0390: Total SNPs: 7252
Result (63.6% 62 -2 +26): J-L283

But that's a nice confirmation of E-V13 being present more to the North in comparison to other "Southern lineages" and actually coming from the Northern Carpathians, spreading with Daco-Thracian related groups North. Just one J-L283 (less than one third to one fourth of E-V13) and no other Southern lineages (of J, G, T etc.) at all.

The only one with a more downstream position ends up being most common in Britain today, among Welsh people (Celtic):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY5965/



below is the map (from which locations the samples were taken in this future polish paper)

and translation from polish by tomenable :

And this map shows how many samples there will be in Poznan team's paper:

blue - 145 samples from the Roman era (1st - 4th centuries AD) ---> including many samples from Pruszcz Gdanski
red - 565 samples from Early Middle Ages (10th - 12th centuries)


WL6HPkm.png




p.s
in anthrogenica user teenpean47 posted 100 y results
but there must be more that his snipsa tool wasn't able to check
out of the total 710 samples
i don't believe there are only 100 males
compare to 600 females in this future paper :thinking:
 
All E samples. Finally a paper with an ok presentation of the yDNA, though more downstream subclades would have been great. For E(-V13) the results are quite interesting, since it proves the Northern presence around Danzig already in the Roman era:

The E-V13 from the Gothic/multicultural context from Poland are out (2):
PCA0110 Maslomecz Roman Z16659 E1b1b1a1b1a10a
PCA0495 Pruszcz Gdanski Roman PF2210 E1b1b1a1b1a


Medieval samples (6):
PCA0236 Poznan Middle Ages L856 E
PCA0255 Poznan Middle Ages L17 E1b1b1a1b1a1
PCA0306 Konskie Middle Ages Z16659 E1b1b1a1b1a10a
PCA0353 Dziekanowice Middle Ages PF2210 E1b1b1a1b1a
PCA0388 Santok Middle Ages CTS8061 E1b1b1a1b1
PCA0400 Santok Middle Ages PF2211 E1b1b1a1b1a

https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-023-03013-9

The Iron Age samples have different autosomal profiles, one looks more Balkan, could have been from the Danube, the other like a mix of Celtic-Germanic-Southern or at least ending up on a similar spot like people with such a mix.
 
All E samples. Finally a paper with an ok presentation of the yDNA, though more downstream subclades would have been great. For E(-V13) the results are quite interesting, since it proves the Northern presence around Danzig already in the Roman era:

The E-V13 from the Gothic/multicultural context from Poland are out (2):
PCA0110 Maslomecz Roman Z16659 E1b1b1a1b1a10a
PCA0495 Pruszcz Gdanski Roman PF2210 E1b1b1a1b1a


Medieval samples (6):
PCA0236 Poznan Middle Ages L856 E
PCA0255 Poznan Middle Ages L17 E1b1b1a1b1a1
PCA0306 Konskie Middle Ages Z16659 E1b1b1a1b1a10a
PCA0353 Dziekanowice Middle Ages PF2210 E1b1b1a1b1a
PCA0388 Santok Middle Ages CTS8061 E1b1b1a1b1
PCA0400 Santok Middle Ages PF2211 E1b1b1a1b1a


https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-023-03013-9

The Iron Age samples have different autosomal profiles, one looks more Balkan, could have been from the Danube, the other like a mix of Celtic-Germanic-Southern or at least ending up on a similar spot like people with such a mix.


but the E sample PCA0236 should be intresting and someone need to look at his bam file
y calls
it is dated
to 1000-1200 AD

p.s
now theytree site tell me it is also e-v13 they checked it out they are fast as the wind
:laughing:
e-v13>z1057
https://www.theytree.com/sample/10436dfe916a8edd6ab1d647d29b2f88.html
 
Great job!

Probably they can get more downstream for the others?

they said to me they processing this project (but low speed)

p.s
so i believe in the end you will see there analysis of the other e-v13's sample from this research at there site
 
Thanks for sharing. I am a bit confused, is this a separate study from the aforementioned medieval samples or is it the same?

me to i truly don't know
the number don't add up i see only 475 total samples here in table S1:
compared to the 710 that they promised :wondering:
maybe riverman knows
 
Revisiting the pre-print "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples", their PCA graph shows quite a lot of potential of more Bessarabi profiles. My cluster for Dacian is based on the Himera E-V13 samples and the strange IA profile that protrudes toward modern Slavs in the graph below.

ytgkCej.png



Similar PCA with current published samples.

pPH6yfp.png
 
Revisiting the pre-print "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples", their PCA graph shows quite a lot of potential of more Bessarabi profiles. My cluster for Dacian is based on the Himera E-V13 samples and the strange IA profile that protrudes toward modern Slavs in the graph below.


Similar PCA with current published samples.

What did you use for Basarabi?
 
The three samples that show the same/similar profile to one another:


MKD_Skopje_Anc_I10379
HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast_I18832_E-V13
UKR_Cimmerian_o_MJ12

Well, its a shame we don't get actual proven Basarabi from a safe context, considering that this is one of the few groups from the Daco-Thracian sphere which has enough potential skeletal remains to test. I still don't get why the Serbian research groups didn't test those first, since for the Early Iron Age they are one of the most important Serbian archaeological groupings.
 
Well, its a shame we don't get actual proven Basarabi from a safe context, considering that this is one of the few groups from the Daco-Thracian sphere which has enough potential skeletal remains to test. I still don't get why the Serbian research groups didn't test those first, since for the Early Iron Age they are one of the most important Serbian archaeological groupings.

True but I am waiting to test out where those Balkan IA profiles fall under when the paper comes out, the South Thracian cluster is an obvious one, even the Illyrians seem easy, the rest of though will have to be tested out through a G25 Iron Age model. Based on how they plot and location of the samples, the chances are good these are derivatives of the Bassarabi profile.
 
For those interested, Family Tree has released the new Globe Trekker feature on their Discover platform



Globetrekker, Part 1: A New FamilyTreeDNA Discover? Report That Puts Big Y on the Map
JULY 31, 2023|IN DISCOVER?

By: Goran Runfeldt

The mix of genes and geography is the most potent recipe for studying human history. Phylogeography has attempted that feat since the 1980s, and we are taking it one step further with Globetrekker! How did your ancestors trek across the globe?

Editors Note: This is part one in a three-part series about Globetrekker, phylogenetics and human history. Part two will deep-dive into the methods and technical details behind this new tool.


https://blog.familytreedna.com/globetrekker-discover-report/

Nice feature, but for E-V13 it suffers from the usual shortcomings, mostly dictated by the lack of ancient samples and modern samples, especially from specific regions.
Like the centre for the early E-V13 distribution being guessed around Shkoder, whereas much of Bulgaria-Romania being largely left out even in the later periods. The British Isles being reached about 1.900 BC, whereas most of Romania-Moldova was reached only in the La Tene period! This is of course absurd, because in the La Tene period they were rather pushed back, not newly spread to those areas of Northern Romania and Moldova.
The most obvious reason for this is the lack of Eastern samples, especially from Romania-Moldova-Western Ukraine in the prehistorical period and modern testers, whereas there is a strong testing bias towards the British Isles in particular.

I can imagine E-V13 to have appeared on the British Isles as early as with Urnfield-related migrations, but surely not earlier and rather later, especially for the great majority. The lack of ancient samples plus the strong British bias in combination cause therefore a significant distortion.

Here the position of E-V13 in the tool around 2.500 BC:
Globe-Trek-E-V13-2500-BCE.jpg

https://ibb.co/mDzyg60

It is is easy to spot the most obvious problem, which is the positioning is much too Western. The North-South axis is at this point much more disputed then the East-West one, because it is pretty clear we are dealing with a centre between the Tisza river basin and the Lower Danube basin. The question is whether its either or one at this early stage.
Anything West of the Central Balkans can be excluded.

I think this has some implications for all haplogroups, because the tool as such looks nice and largely correct, but it can just work with the available data. If there is a lack of ancient and modern unbiased sampling, the result can't be 100 % right.

But its a great tool and I expect it to become more accurate with more ancient and modern samples. Its already much better for many branches than things were on other tools some years ago. Even just 2 years ago, things looked worse.
 
Without aDNA we just end up in a vicious cycle of discussions.

It looks like the Spanish Neolithic Cardial Pottery sample is V13+, that makes things a bit complicated, or, V13 was already mutated but was not common at all unlike its other L618 subclades which themselves were not common in Neolithic Europe as well but more common than V13+.

Then we see in Iron Age Thrace and historical Thracian people, now how Thracians came to be, that's up to discussion.

For me, the safest bet is modern East Serbian-West Bulgarian nearby Haemus mountains metallurgical Neolithic groups, these were the people who put a resistance to Yamnaya as the Lower Danubian groups did as well.
 
Without aDNA we just end up in a vicious cycle of discussions.

It looks like the Spanish Neolithic Cardial Pottery sample is V13+, that makes things a bit complicated, or, V13 was already mutated but was not common at all unlike its other L618 subclades which themselves were not common in Neolithic Europe as well but more common than V13+.

Then we see in Iron Age Thrace and historical Thracian people, now how Thracians came to be, that's up to discussion.

For me, the safest bet is modern East Serbian-West Bulgarian nearby Haemus mountains metallurgical Neolithic groups, these were the people who put a resistance to Yamnaya as the Lower Danubian groups did as well.

Going by the events which created the Thracian culture and Psenichevo is basically its nucleus in my opinion, I have no fixed position for the starting point other than saying it should be either along the Tisza or the Lower Danube. Definitely not much South of the Danube or West of the Tisza, that are the two limitations I'm currently seeing.

map-of-the-tisza-river-and-the-southern-part-of-the-danube.jpg


The triangle created by the confluence of the Tisza and Danube river might prove to be highly important for the Balkan spread. That's also where Pre-G?va groups spread and under direct influence from Northern G?va-Holigrady the Belegis II-G?va group emerged, which is absolutely central for the later spread of Channelled Ware and presumably E-V13 also.

The area between Serbia-Romania-Bulgaria might be also highly important, basically the zone around the Iron Gates (Eisernes Tor in German on the map). On the map is also the Olt river, that's probably the Eastern borderline in the earliest phase. So I would concentrate on the zone East of the Tisza, North and only a bit South of the Danube, and West of the Olt.

In the MBA, this is largely identical with Gyulavarsand and to some degree Wietenberg, and related groups to those two, plus later Suciu de Sus and related Pre-G?va groups:

Sast9gW.png


Based on current testing, anything West and South of those - like Maros in particular, look unlikely.
 
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