G25 G25 imperial Greek shift in Greeks and Italians + a comparison with qpAdm

[torzio]

Ihype02: Central Italians being 7% Slavic and 0% native makes total sense? I do hope you are being very, very, very, tongue and cheek so to speak. I am assuming your are!

So let me just say, it makes 100% no sense.

maybe he is referring to the Molise Croatians that arrived in Molise Italy area between the 11th and 16th century ...............but only 50,000 came in that time
they spoke only one dialect
Chakavian ...........which is a South Slavic supradialect or language spoken by Croats along the Adriatic coast, in the historical regions of Dalmatia, Istria, Croatian Littoral ( the islands)

 

[Pax Augusta]

maybe he is referring to the Molise Croatians that arrived in Molise Italy area between the 11th and 16th century ...............but only 50,000 came in that time
they spoke only one dialect
Chakavian ...........which is a South Slavic supradialect or language spoken by Croats along the Adriatic coast, in the historical regions of Dalmatia, Istria, Croatian Littoral ( the islands)

And what Molise Croatians that arrived in Molise have to do with Central Sicily?

Ihype02: Central Italians being 7% Slavic and 0% native makes total sense? I do hope you are being very, very, very, tongue and cheek so to speak. I am assuming your are!

So let me just say, it makes 100% no sense.

Central Sicilians. Of course it's nonsense.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Lazaridis et al. argue strenuously in the Southern Arc supplementals that the Imperial Roman influx was not just Anatolia/East Med like, but actually from Anatolia. If memory serves, that would be people from the Hellenistic places studied in the Southern Arc. Waiting and wondering if J2a-L70 will be found somewhere in the Hellenistic Anatolia or Greek world. Southern Arc and other papers show that all Mycenaean J2a men were L26 but not L24 and L25 (below L24, and L70 is below L25). The first L25 sample was found in Classical Himera and had a Mediterranean aDNA profile (Z7706 if memory serves). Another L25 was found in Hellenistic Halicarnassus, but had a mostly Levantine profile. Southwest Anatolia seems to have been a hotspot for the L25 men, based on Southern Arc, including a Medieval below/above L70 sample.

 

[brick]

Lazaridis et al. argue strenuously in the Southern Arc supplementals that the Imperial Roman influx was not just Anatolia/East Med like, but actually from Anatolia. If memory serves, that would be people from the Hellenistic places studied in the Southern Arc. Waiting and wondering if J2a-L70 will be found somewhere in the Hellenistic Anatolia or Greek world. Southern Arc and other papers show that all Mycenaean J2a men were L26 but not L24 and L25 (below L24, and L70 is below L25). The first L25 sample was found in Classical Himera and had a Mediterranean aDNA profile (Z7706 if memory serves). Another L25 was found in Hellenistic Halicarnassus, but had a mostly Levantine profile. Southwest Anatolia seems to have been a hotspot for the L25 men, based on Southern Arc, including a Medieval below/above L70 sample.

Lazaridis himself, being a Pontic Greek, is from Anatolia.

 

[torzio]

And what Molise Croatians that arrived in Molise have to do with Central Sicily?
Central Sicilians. Of course it's nonsense.

In case you missed it ,did you not read it or did you make a random comment ................. I replied to his central Italian comment............did you not see this?
Do you always make wild unrelated comments.................is this some type of point scoring system for yourself ?

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

What do these "pre-Hellenistic" Anatolians look like vs. "post-Hellenistic" Anatolians look. I am well aware based on numerous papers that Anatolia was a genetic continuity from the Neolithic to late Bronze Age (per the Southern Arc papers). But just how different are those populations.

Next, what do the G25 results show relative to the Dodecad 12B, which from my perspective, still do a better job of modeling Italian populations than G25 (which is better than what the old K13 use to do, but still IMO, not as good as Dodecade 12B)?

G25 is consistent with qpAdm results when making proximal models while dodecad is not, G25 is a PCA that i made to tell apart related populations. The "genetic continuity" in Anatolia is not actually direct, its just people from the west and east mixing and recreating similar profiles. Mycenaean/Thracian and West Anatolian raises ANF and East Anatolian/Armenia raises CHG/Iran N.

 

[Pax Augusta]

In case you missed it ,did you not read it or did you make a random comment ................. I replied to his central Italian comment............did you not see this?
Do you always make wild unrelated comments.................is this some type of point scoring system for yourself ?

 

[Palermo Trapani]

maybe he is referring to the Molise Croatians that arrived in Molise Italy area between the 11th and 16th century ...............but only 50,000 came in that time
they spoke only one dialect
Chakavian ...........which is a South Slavic supradialect or language spoken by Croats along the Adriatic coast, in the historical regions of Dalmatia, Istria, Croatian Littoral ( the islands)

Torzio: my mistake, I meant Central Sicilians.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

G25 is consistent with qpAdm results when making proximal models while dodecad is not, G25 is a PCA that i made to tell apart related populations. The "genetic continuity" in Anatolia is not actually direct, its just people from the west and east mixing and recreating similar profiles. Mycenaean/Thracian and West Anatolian raises ANF and East Anatolian/Armenia raises CHG/Iran N.

But we have known since the Feldman et al 2019 paper that ancient Anatolia was a mix of Anatolian HG, who come from SE Europe, likely the Iron-Gates HG. I say that because a recent paper suggest the Villabruna HG in NE Italy come from the same Iron-Gates HG, and that these Anatolian HG who were descendant from the Iron-gates after 6-8k years or so via drift or some mutations to new area became its own cluster. These Anatolian HG throughout the Neolithic represented 80-90% of the admixture of the Neolithic Anatolians with 10-20% admixture from CHG/Iran_Neo + Levant Neolithic sources.

It was well into the late Bronze/Copper age that the so called Anatolian genetic island so to speak changed somewhat (per the 3 Southern Arc papers by Lazaridis et al 2022). No offense, but it seems speaking of the Southern Arc, the last time a Checked over at Eurogenes, there is this "Dear John Letter" (for historical reference a Letter an American GI during WW2 that was received from a woman who was a former fiancé/girlfriend, etc) that is over 400 posts still upset about the Southern Arc papers. So these G25 samples, how do they get selected? When I see that type of posts just totally attacking those 3 papers, it raises questions to me.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

You have no idea how admixture models are to be interpreted, since they just show how a population can be modelled, it does not literally show what the actual ancestral genetic make-up of a people is- it shows "a possibility", as far as the samples and the algorithm used go, a possibility that must be weighed against other historical evidence; it has already been noted that your model is extremely implausible since it has too a significant presence of germanic admixture from the Alps to Sicily.
A 70-90% replacement is impossible on account of internal migration(individual citizens, often the middle-upper class, deciding to move, not any generalised "folk migration" as in the case of indo-europeans moving into western Europe), it doesn't even happen today and it is extremely unlikely it will, and such levels are even hard to obtain in the case of folk migrations, but somehow "it just happened".
Furthermore, your model makes no sense because ancient southern Italians were already similar to ancient Greeks(the Sicilian bell beaker sample plotted closely to where BA Sicilians plotted), and they saw too a significant gene flow from ancient Greeks themselves, who included both "classical", for lack of a better term, greeks with a Mycenaean-like profile and Greeks with some Anatolia_BA admixture; then, as I said since 2021 at least, a significant gene flow from Anatolia-like, more precisely Anatolia_IA gene flow is very plausible in Italy during the empire, but "significant" means that it was on top of Sicily_IA-like+ Mycenaean-like, not the ridiculous claimed 70-90% replacement from far away places as I keep reading from people that have an agenda for ethnic self-aggrandizement.

Another person that has no idea about the actual similarities and differences between these populations. The Greeks who migrated were not Mycenaeans, Anatolia BA or Anatolia IA. They had an autosomal profile that was a mix of Mycenaean, Anatolia IA, Armenia and the Levant. All of that recreated a similar profile to Anatolia IA (it was mixed with similar components) but we can still tell apart the Imperial Greek West Anatolian from Anatolia IA. Just because they look Anatolia IA like, it does not mean they were from the Anatolia IA period, if you actually bothered to compare them to later Anatolians, you would have seen that they were more similar to Imperial Greek West Anatolians.

South Italy got colonized by Greeks, and was repopulated again by other Greeks but from West Anatolia in the imperial period. Just because you can't believe such a big migration happened despite actual data showing that it happened, it does not mean that it did not happen. Why are people here acting even offended to even suggest that another Greek population mass migrated to Greek colonies, shocking, Greeks migrated to Greek colonies.

your model makes no sense because ancient southern Italians were already similar to ancient Greeks

They were relatively similar to Mycenaeans in the Iron Age and classical age but in the imperial period Greek West Anatolians mass migrated to Italy, what's so hard to understand.

The Rome Imperial Greek samples cluster with West Anatolians and not with the classical Greek colony samples of Sicily.
You can clearly see that they were closer to imperial West Anatolians than the samples from Classical Sicily. They were closer to Imperial Greek West Anatolians than Iron age West Anatolians. These people did not live in Italy in the Iron Age, they came during the Imperial period from West Anatolia.

Aegean-West_Anatolia = Rome Imperial samples that cluster with Greek West Anatolians/islanders. I just renamed them like that, don't get consued.

As you can see with your own eyes, the samples from the city of Rome during 1-200AD were identical to the Greek West Anatolians from the same period and not with Mycenaeans or classical mainland Ionians.

The Greek samples in Imperial Rome were identical to imperial Greek West Anatolians.

The Greek samples in Imperial Rome were more similar to imperial Greek West Anatolians than to Mycenaeans.

The Greek samples in Imperial Rome were more similar to imperial Greek West Anatolians than to classical mainland Ionians.

Pay attention to the data, look which population from which period the Greek samples from the city of Rome in 1-200AD are closest to:

We can clearly tell that Sicily experienced a shift towards imperial Greek West Anatolia. If it was just a Sicily IA migration to Rome then why do Aegean-West_Anatolia = Rome Imperial samples not cluster with Sicily IA relatively? Obviously the Imperial Rome Greeks were recent arrivals from West Anatolia.

Aegean-West_Anatolia = Rome Imperial samples that cluster with Greek West Anatolians/islanders.

it doesn't even happen today and it is extremely unlikely it will, and such levels are even hard to obtain in the case of folk migrations, but somehow "it just happened".

Just because you personally have no heard of big migrations, it does not mean that they never happened.

Conservative Romans were actually complaining about the mass migration from Imperial Greek Anatolians. Here's what a Roman satirist was saying

The Third Satire is an aggressive attack on the internationalization of the city Rome. Juvenal born in 55 AD, as most satirists, writes from a conservative perspective. In this etext, the first few lines, in which Juvenal describes his friend's Umbricius' decision to leave Rome for Cumae, are omitted. The text takes up where Umbricius begins to speak.

The use of the term Syrian Orontes implies that these Greeks were not from mainland Greece but from Anatolia.

It is that the city is become Greek, Quirites, that I cannot tolerate; and yet how small the proportion even of the dregs of Greece! Syrian Orontes has long since flowed into the Tiber, and brought with it its language, morals, and the crooked harps with the flute-player, and its national tambourines, and girls made to stand for hire at the Circus. Go thither, you who fancy a barbarian harlot with embroidered turban. That rustic of yours, Quirinus, takes his Greek supper-cloak, and wears Greek prizes on his neck besmeared with Ceroma. One forsaking steep Sicyon, another Amydon, a third from Andros, another from Samos, another again from Tralles, or Alabanda, swarm to Esquiliae, and the hill called from its osiers, destined to be the very vitals, and future lords of great houses. These have a quick wit, desperate impudence, a ready speech, more rapidly fluent even than Isaeus. Tell me what you fancy he is? He has brought with him whatever character you wish---grammarian rhetorician, geometer, painter, trainer, soothsayer, ropedancer, physician, wizard---he knows everything. Bid the hungry Greekling go to heaven! He'll go. In short, it was neither Moor, nor Sarmatian, nor Thracian, that took wings, but one born in the heart of Athens. Shall I not shun these men's purple robes? Shall this fellow take precedence of me in signing his name, and recline pillowed on a more honorable couch than I, though imported to Rome by the same wind that brought the plums and figs? Does it then go so utterly for nothing, that my infancy inhaled the air of Aventine, nourished on the Sabine berry? Why add that this nation, most deeply versed in flattery, praises the conversation of an ignorant, the face of a hideously ugly friend, and compares some weak fellow's crane-like neck to the brawny shoulders of Hercules, holding Antaeus far from his mother Earth: and is in raptures at the squeaking voice, not a whit superior in sound to that of the cock as he bites the hen.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/juvenal3.asp

Iron Age Italian in South Italy is diluted down to 10-30%. Calabrians are one of the most similar people genetically to the Mycenaeans because of that significant imperial Greek West Anatolian admixture.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Conservative Romans were actually complaining about the mass migration from Imperial Greek Anatolians. Here's what a Roman satirist was saying

The Third Satire is an aggressive attack on the internationalization of the city Rome. Juvenal born in 55 AD, as most satirists, writes from a conservative perspective. In this etext, the first few lines, in which Juvenal describes his friend's Umbricius' decision to leave Rome for Cumae, are omitted. The text takes up where Umbricius begins to speak.

The use of the term Syrian Orontes implies that these Greeks were not from mainland Greece but from Anatolia.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/juvenal3.asp

This is original text. Can you translate it yourself? It is an attack on both Greeks and Levantines (on all Greeks, not just those in Anatolia).

quae nunc diuitibus gens acceptissima nostris
et quos praecipue fugiam, properabo fateri,
nec pudor obstabit. non possum ferre, Quirites,
Graecam urbem. quamuis quota portio faecis Achaei?
iam pridem Syrus in Tiberim defluxit Orontes
et linguam et mores et cum tibicine chordas
obliquas nec non gentilia tympana secum
uexit et ad circum iussas prostare puellas.
ite, quibus grata est picta lupa barbara mitra.
rusticus ille tuus sumit trechedipna, Quirine,
et ceromatico fert niceteria collo.
hic alta Sicyone, ast hic Amydone relicta,
hic Andro, ille Samo, hic Trallibus aut Alabandis,
Esquilias dictumque petunt a uimine collem,
uiscera magnarum domuum dominique futuri.
ingenium uelox, audacia perdita, sermo
promptus et Isaeo torrentior. ede quid illum
esse putes. quemuis hominem secum attulit ad nos:
grammaticus, rhetor, geometres, pictor, aliptes,
augur, schoenobates, medicus, magus, omnia nouit
Graeculus esuriens: in caelum iusseris ibit.
in summa non Maurus erat neque Sarmata nec Thrax
qui sumpsit pinnas, mediis sed natus Athenis.
horum ego non fugiam conchylia? me prior ille
signabit fultusque toro meliore recumbet,
aduectus Romam quo pruna et cottana uento?
usque adeo nihil est quod nostra infantia caelum
hausit Auentini baca nutrita Sabina?
quid quod adulandi gens prudentissima laudat
sermonem indocti, faciem deformis amici,
et longum inualidi collum ceruicibus aequat
Herculis Antaeum procul a tellure tenentis,
miratur uocem angustam, qua deterius nec 90
ille sonat quo mordetur gallina marito?
haec eadem licet et nobis laudare, sed illis
creditur. an melior cum Thaida sustinet aut cum
uxorem comoedus agit uel Dorida nullo
cultam palliolo? mulier nempe ipsa uidetur,
non persona, loqui: uacua et plana omnia dicas
infra uentriculum et tenui distantia rima.
nec tamen Antiochus nec erit mirabilis illic
aut Stratocles aut cum molli Demetrius Haemo:
natio comoeda est. rides, maiore cachinno
concutitur; flet, si lacrimas conspexit amici,
nec dolet; igniculum brumae si tempore poscas,
accipit endromidem; si dixeris “aestuo,” sudat.
non sumus ergo pares: melior, qui semper et omni
nocte dieque potest aliena sumere uultum
a facie, iactare manus laudare paratus,
si bene ructauit, si rectum minxit amicus,
si trulla inuerso crepitum dedit aurea fundo.
praeterea sanctum nihil †aut† ab inguine tutum,
non matrona laris, non filia uirgo, nec ipse
sponsus leuis adhuc, non filius ante pudicus.
horum si nihil est, auiam resupinat amici.
[scire uolunt secreta domus atque inde timeri.]
et quoniam coepit Graecorum mentio, transi
gymnasia atque audi facinus maioris abollae
Stoicus occidit Baream delator amicum
discipulumque senex ripa nutritus in illa
ad quam Gorgonei delapsa est pinna caballi.
non est Romano cuiquam locus hic, ubi regnat
Protogenes aliquis uel Diphilus aut Hermarchus,
qui gentis uitio numquam partitur amicum,
solus habet. nam cum facilem stillauit in aurem
exiguum de naturae patriaeque ueneno,
limine summoueor, perierunt tempora longi
seruitii; nusquam minor est iactura clientis.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

This is original text. Can you translate it yourself? It is an attack on both Greeks and Levantines (on all Greeks, not just those in Anatolia).

My point was that the attack was about the recent Greek immigrants making the cities majority Greek. Some conservative Romans were complaining about the migrations. The migration was so big they were complaining that the cities turned Greek.

Some Romans were complaining that the city of Rome itself was becoming Greek, according to autosomal DNA, that actually must have happened, a large Greek migration.

It is that the city is become Greek, Quirites, that I cannot tolerate

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

Another person that has no idea about the actual similarities and differences between these populations. The Greeks who migrated were not Mycenaeans, Anatolia BA or Anatolia IA. They had an autosomal profile that was a mix of Mycenaean, Anatolia IA, Armenia and the Levant. All of that recreated a similar profile to Anatolia IA (it was mixed with similar components) but we can still tell apart the Imperial Greek West Anatolian from Anatolia IA. Just because they look Anatolia IA like, it does not mean they were from the Anatolia IA period, if you actually bothered to compare them to later Anatolians, you would have seen that they were more similar to Imperial Greek West Anatolians.

South Italy got colonized by Greeks, and was repopulated again by other Greeks but from West Anatolia in the imperial period. Just because you can't believe such a big migration happened despite actual data showing that it happened, it does not mean that it did not happen. Why are people here acting even offended to even suggest that another Greek population mass migrated to Greek colonies, shocking, Greeks migrated to Greek colonies.


They were relatively similar to Mycenaeans in the Iron Age and classical age but in the imperial period Greek West Anatolians mass migrated to Italy, what's so hard to understand.

The Rome Imperial Greek samples cluster with West Anatolians and not with the classical Greek colony samples of Sicily.
You can clearly see that they were closer to imperial West Anatolians than the samples from Classical Sicily. They were closer to Imperial Greek West Anatolians than Iron age West Anatolians. These people did not live in Italy in the Iron Age, they came during the Imperial period from West Anatolia.

Aegean-West_Anatolia = Rome Imperial samples that cluster with Greek West Anatolians/islanders. I just renamed them like that, don't get consued.

As you can see with your own eyes, the samples from the city of Rome during 1-200AD were identical to the Greek West Anatolians from the same period and not with Mycenaeans or classical mainland Ionians.

The Greek samples in Imperial Rome were identical to imperial Greek West Anatolians.

The Greek samples in Imperial Rome were more similar to imperial Greek West Anatolians than to Mycenaeans.

The Greek samples in Imperial Rome were more similar to imperial Greek West Anatolians than to classical mainland Ionians.

Pay attention to the data, look which population from which period the Greek samples from the city of Rome in 1-200AD are closest to:

We can clearly tell that Sicily experienced a shift towards imperial Greek West Anatolia. If it was just a Sicily IA migration to Rome then why do Aegean-West_Anatolia = Rome Imperial samples not cluster with Sicily IA relatively? Obviously the Imperial Rome Greeks were recent arrivals from West Anatolia.

Aegean-West_Anatolia = Rome Imperial samples that cluster with Greek West Anatolians/islanders.



Just because you personally have no heard of big migrations, it does not mean that they never happened.

Conservative Romans were actually complaining about the mass migration from Imperial Greek Anatolians. Here's what a Roman satirist was saying

The Third Satire is an aggressive attack on the internationalization of the city Rome. Juvenal born in 55 AD, as most satirists, writes from a conservative perspective. In this etext, the first few lines, in which Juvenal describes his friend's Umbricius' decision to leave Rome for Cumae, are omitted. The text takes up where Umbricius begins to speak.

The use of the term Syrian Orontes implies that these Greeks were not from mainland Greece but from Anatolia.


https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/juvenal3.asp

Iron Age Italian in South Italy is diluted down to 10-30%. Calabrians are one of the most similar people genetically to the Mycenaeans because of that significant imperial Greek West Anatolian admixture.

I haven't read a single valid line of defense from your part, I'll compare your procedures to what archaeogenetists do: they use MANY various methods in order to test, as far as possible, a hypothesis BASED on an overall historical reconstruction (narration + explanation) grounded on the historical evidence, they DO NOT use one or two tests to come up with ludicrous hypotheses that don't stand up to any historical scrutiny, insisting on top of that that "it happened because there is no evidence contrary to it and you just don't hear about it".
We already know, before genetics, that there were many foreigners in urban centres in Italy and Greece, so it is not a piece of evidence the usual quote about the Syrians and the Orontes (which by the way betokens the Levant rather than Anatolia), and to bring it up shows you have actually no historical understanding: how on earth would what made up a few percentage of the overall population, that is upper class foreigners from around the empire (merchants and the like), end up replacing 70%-90% of the local pop? AND WITHOUT LEAVING ANY ARCHAEOLOGICAL TRACE!? Such high levels are even unexpected in the cases of folk migrations coupled with ethnic cleansing of the conquered people and brought-in plagues, but you and others insist that it was achieved by normal internal movement during the empire. Let me take a guess: would ANY historian support such a thesis? You must also consider that the average Greek and Roman were not "tolerant" and we should have called them "racist" (cfr. "the invention of racism in classical antiquity), so it strains the imagination to think they just sit back when they were outnumbered by people that, at the time of the early empire, were not even citizens.
Furthermore the idea that Anatolia_IA-like admixture in the imperial epoch "actually wasn't anatolia_IA but it was a similar profile created by people from west and east mixing" is as dumb as the previous, ever-green ideas that "classical era Greeks weren't actually Mycenaean-like but was a similar profile creating by mixing...." and "Southern Italians aren't actually similar to ancient Greeks but it is a similar profile created by people from north and south mixing..." (I'll add this observation: not that southern Italians are literally 100& ancient greek derived but overall the bulk is derived by very similar peoples to the Mycenanean-profile, whereas the usual just so-story was that it was a fluke created by Levantines and Germanics mixing together).
As they were in a study, modern Greeks could be modelled as being 60% Pole and 40% Cypriot but it doesn't follow that they are literally, on a genealogical level, 60% Pole and 40% Cypriot.

 

[Pax Augusta]

My point was that the attack was about the recent Greek immigrants making the cities majority Greek. Some conservative Romans were complaining about the migrations. The migration was so big they were complaining that the cities turned Greek.

Some Romans were complaining that the city of Rome itself was becoming Greek, according to autosomal DNA, that actually must have happened, a large Greek migration.

I imagine many more than 'some Romans' were complaining.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I haven't read a single valid line of defense from your part.

Nah, i think you are not actually even bothering to read what i say. Everything you complained about was already explained by me, but you choose to not read what i say, why do i have to repeat the same stuff 100 times that you obviously do not bother to read and just keep repeating your beliefs not based on any data.

I've never claimed that classical Greeks recreated a similar profile to Mycenaeans, that only happened with Anatolians in these periods Bronze Age -> Iron Age -> Imperial. You didn't even bother reading what i said, you just chose to deny everything based on your irrelevant beliefs.

(I'll add this observation: not that southern Italians are literally 100& ancient greek derived but overall the bulk is derived by very similar peoples to the Mycenanean-profile, whereas the usual just so-story was that it was a fluke created by Levantines and Germanics mixing together)

There is too much Levant Neolithic, steppe and CHG/Iran N proportionally in modern Sicilians compared to Iron age and classical Sicilians for them to have significant pre Imperial Sicilian ancestry. Even by looking at the Neolithic proportions you can see that they require something from Imperial Anatolia.

Your whole argument is literally just "i cannot believe it, how could such thing ever happened, impossible, its not what i believed for years". Your beliefs are irrelevant to actual autosomal DNA data.

As they were in a study, modern Greeks could be modelled as being 60% Pole and 40% Cypriot but it doesn't follow that they are literally, on a genealogical level, 60% Pole and 40% Cypriot.

If you have read anything i've said you would have known that the models i've made were not that simple. I compared modern Italians to iron age and classical ones. South Italians simply do not have much Iron age South Italian ancestry.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

. accident

 

[D.L.M]

Ihype02: Central Sicilians being 7% Slavic and 0% native makes total sense? I do hope you are being very, very, very, tongue and cheek so to speak. I am assuming your are!

So let me just say, it makes 100% no sense.

I was obviously being sarcastic.

 

[D.L.M]

I suspect that a good chunk of those Imperial Roman samples in 'Dodecanese Cluster' are augmented with some Italic admixture that gives them a pseudo-West Anatolian genetic profile. I am not saying that there were no Western Anatolians in Rome at all but I prefer a more eastern source to leave more room for native Italian admixture.
(Also there is 40%-65% Italic Y-Dna in central Italy - depending in which region)

70% replacement is out of question though.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

I suspect that a good chunk of those Imperial Roman samples in 'Dodecanese Cluster' are augmented with some Italic admixture that gives them a pseudo-West Anatolian genetic profile. I am not saying that there were no Western Anatolians in Rome at all but I prefer a more eastern source to leave more room for native Italian admixture.
(Also there is 40%-65% Italic Y-Dna in central Italy - depending in which region)

70% replacement is out of question though.

I checked the Greek cluster from imperial Rome, they have no Italian Iron Age admix. No pseudo West Anatolian profile while the Imperial Rome average shows actual Iron Age Italian. All the arguments against my post is just "i can't believe it happened".

 

[Palermo Trapani]

IdontknowwhatIamDoing: I have run my G25-Simulated coordinates against the Individual Italian samples and Greek ones in the G25 ancient data sheet. I used 0.05 as the cutoff value (similar to I guess a p value < 0.05 which in statistics suggest significance). I have 2 ancient Greek samples, one from the MBA and one Mycenean that I am pretty close to as well as the Iron Age Roman R437. All of my ancestors 125 years ago were in Sicily, if you go back 5 generations, of my 32 great-great-great grandparents if I have my research I did some <4 years ago correct in my head, 31 in Sicily and 1 in Calabria which is roughly back to circa 1800.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]0.02298057[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]0.02319754[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR54[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]0.02337220[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FF00, align: right"]0.02371395[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1290[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02452602[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02517842[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1283[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02616299[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR973[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02703858[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02747266[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR122[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02751443[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR835[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02753350[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02771152[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR47[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02803171[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02808651[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR64[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02830466[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02858238[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR57[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02862135[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR107[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02888197[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR131[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02892403[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02975777[/TD]
[TD]ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMAOP001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.02993861[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR53[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03020596[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Venosa_EMA:VEN015[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03038882[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR013[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03061208[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03103286[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR969[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03139307[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR120[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03181696[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Collegno_MA:CL121[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03194571[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1544[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03211686[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03223614[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03355841[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial:TAQ021[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03381233[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR59[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03398434[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03404263[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03511396[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Etruria_Imperial:ETR001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03521041[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03525360[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03555132[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR836[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03566681[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR125[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03572271[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ003[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03597162[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03601784[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Venosa_EMA:VEN001[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03615310[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03624182[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR51[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03646886[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR436[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03687856[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ009[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03727782[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1285[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03741331[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03755932[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Venosa_EMA:VEN006[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03774049[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03816303[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03832494[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR113[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03852621[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ011[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03892037[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Venosa_EMA:VEN005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03920533[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Daunian:ORD010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.03977333[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR60[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04034390[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1549[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04038985[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04042700[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04048904[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR003[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04089360[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Venosa_EMA:VEN016[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04114998[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04118174[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04132835[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR114[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04135810[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Venosa_EMA:VEN013[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04149364[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR133[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04169327[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_Punic:MSR002[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04179985[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04180318[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR014[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04194729[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1548[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04223164[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04230277[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04234647[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR50[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04249113[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR134[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04359472[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04427471[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04448051[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_Late_Antiquity:I12220[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04499917[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_IA:I10366[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04512814[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial:MAS003[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04529970[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1543[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04572758[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9041[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04582446[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o:RMPR850[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04910292[/TD]
[TD]GRC_Mycenaean:I9033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04945723[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Sardinia_Punic:MSR003[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04955317[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Venosa_EMA:VEN012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #01FF00, align: right"]0.04966251[/TD]
[TD]ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR123

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]