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To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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With archaeogenetic evidence showing the complete opposite, Paleo, I think we can agree to disagree on this. Also, modern Slavs in the Balkans are off topic to the Bronze/Iron Age discussion.
 
torzio said:
all its history Croatia and Slovenia uses a Latin based text .............Serbia uses Cyrillic , which is Slavic based
Is this your western leaning ?
Click to expand...

I meant it historically, Venice dominating the coast, Hungary the Sava river basin, Slovenia with Austria, Charlemaine vs Byzantine, etc... And even now as independent countries, they like to see themselves as different from the rest of Yugoslavs. Culturally you see Croats imitating western 80s rock music, as if wanting to differentiate themselves from the Serbs, consciously they don't want to be seen as Balkan. History has a habit of being circular.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
I meant it historically, Venice dominating the coast, Hungary the Sava river basin, Slovenia with Austria, Charlemaine vs Byzantine, etc... And even now as independent countries, they like to see themselves as different from the rest of Yugoslavs. Culturally you see Croats imitating western 80s rock music, as if wanting to differentiate themselves from the Serbs, consciously they don't want to be seen as Balkan. History has a habit of being circular.
Click to expand...
Venice owned half of Istria from 900 AD to 1797
owned Liburnia, Dalmatia and coastal montenegro from 1435 to 1797

owned corfu from 1205-1797

and very many greek islands as well

in Albaina...not very long..Butrint for 1 year and Durres 1392-1501
 
Riverman said:
Those samples are (if you mean the same as I do) Encrusted Pottery people and these are completely different people with more WHG and less Bell Beaker-like ancestry. They are closer related to Western Hungarian, Southern Romanian, Bulgarian Bronze Age samples which are all pretty similar (high I2, high G2, high WHG, lower Yamnaya/no Bell Beaker). Those were the people in between the Cetina people/Pre-Illyrians and Bell Beakers on the one hand and the East Carpathian and Epi-Corded groups or steppe on the other. They being largely replaced by Tumulus culture (Bell Beaker-derived largely) and G�va-related Channelled Ware.
We don't know how they relate exactly to other people and what kind of language they might have spoken. It seems they didn't survive as a population and ethnicity of their own, but rather got replaced and assimilated. They did contribute to the Middle Danubian and Carpathian Tumulus culture a bit, possibly, and even more to a variety of Balkan groups, Stamped Pottery in particular. But neither their exact autosomal profile nor their patrilineages seem to have been particularly successful as far as we can tell as of yet, with two samples, one being I2 dominated in Hungary, the other G2 from Northern Croatia.
Click to expand...

G25 is in agreement.

ZN6eVjI.png



Code: 
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BGR_N:Avg,0.1211077,0.1806626,0.0114268,-0.0889219,0.0541641,-0.045515,-0.000188,-0.0028151,0.0397187,0.0845575,0.0116594,0.0139526,-0.022864,-0.0011148,-0.0366987,-0.0141739,0.0211353,0.0055363,0.0081705,-0.0132563,-0.0116794,0.0063558,-0.0049793,-0.0041089,-0.0098674
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
TUR_Catalhoyuk_N_Ceramic:Avg,0.0967496666666667,0.177717666666667,-0.00842233333333333,-0.119295666666667,0.0318003333333333,-0.0573583333333333,-0.00148833333333333,-0.0179993333333333,0.0212023333333333,0.0619603333333333,0.0145606666666667,0.00419633333333333,-0.016551,0.00775266666666667,-0.0313966666666667,-0.027932,0.003955,0.00114033333333333,0.0198183333333333,-0.0136733333333333,-0.011563,0.008738,-0.00435466666666667,0.00622566666666667,-0.00746433333333333
IRN_TepeHissar_C:Avg,0.0780204545454546,0.0983218181818182,-0.120918545454545,-0.0128612727272727,-0.0963815454545454,0.0127782727272727,0.0129470909090909,-0.00505581818181818,-0.0701888181818182,-0.0367123636363636,-0.00394154545454545,-0.00129436363636364,-0.00114881818181818,-0.00295263636363636,0.0196547272727273,0.0289646363636364,-0.00679172727272727,0.00532090909090909,0.00764481818181818,-0.0237274545454545,0.00626190909090909,-0.0142986363636364,-0.00521,-0.0225331818181818,0.0140867272727273
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG:Avg,0.13046975,0.11805525,0.1794505,0.174532,0.1301396875,0.05351209375,0.01399796875,0.0320540625,0.06475096875,-0.00843409375,-0.00892628125,-0.0168138125,0.02473340625,-4.21874999999999E-06,0.032080875,0.04726409375,0.00466528125,0.0055781875,-0.006768,0.04741340625,0.07336275,0.01101284375,-0.03336925,-0.12037075,0.01111040625
WHG:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
Yamnaya_Avg:,0.120715777777778,0.0878996666666667,0.0439556111111111,0.113661111111111,-0.0293728888888889,0.0448704444444444,0.00420394444444444,-0.00333322222222222,-0.0553464444444444,-0.0740585555555556,0.000496055555555556,0.000366388888888889,-0.00175922222222222,-0.0232582222222222,0.0337866666666667,0.0136272222222222,-0.000992444444444444,-0.00304055555555556,-0.00233938888888889,0.0107411666666667,-0.00358394444444444,0.000583888888888889,0.0101952777777778,0.0198688333333333,-0.0037055
Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER),0.1253507,0.10915866,0.056808809,0.089148191,0.0044132128,0.033087128,0.0037300426,0.00056465957,-0.028402702,-0.041441191,-0.0014857447,0.00009887234,-0.0056111064,-0.014620191,0.026595404,0.0083559362,-0.0093626809,0.0014421702,-0.0005696383,0.0058938085,0.0016965106,0.0034095532,0.0045051064,0.015449404,-0.0021528511
Uralic(RUS_HG),0.10471733,-0.068040567,0.095076233,0.1915759,-0.082477,0.043630767,-0.0425109,-0.048331333,-0.032042,-0.088526,0.022084667,-0.0095581,0.026246767,-0.071105233,0.024595433,0.017958433,-0.012908,-0.0047716667,-0.00019543333,0.0012226667,-0.031680433,0.013217333,0.023992333,0.0063325667,-0.0095001
TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN:I8432,0.071709,0.131003,-0.084098,-0.097223,-0.052625,-0.032909,-0.009165,-0.011307,-0.020861,-0.009841,0.026469,-0.007044,0.009812,0.014175,-0.005836,0.000663,-0.002217,0.006081,-0.000377,0.002876,-0.000749,0.012984,-0.001849,-0.023618,0.008861
Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
 
PaleoRevenge said:
I meant it historically, Venice dominating the coast, Hungary the Sava river basin, Slovenia with Austria, Charlemaine vs Byzantine, etc... And even now as independent countries, they like to see themselves as different from the rest of Yugoslavs. Culturally you see Croats imitating western 80s rock music, as if wanting to differentiate themselves from the Serbs, consciously they don't want to be seen as Balkan. History has a habit of being circular.
Click to expand...


Dalmatia still seeks autonomy from Croatia even today ...........my family go there on holidays as it is cheaper than Italy, they always talk to locals who want autonomy
 
PaleoRevenge said:
G25 is in agreement.

ZN6eVjI.png



Code: 
DEU_MN:Avg,0.12662825,0.1675625,0.05911375,-0.023902,0.0880165,-0.02412425,-0.00411275,0.00830725,0.06263525,0.07694925,-0.00105575,0.01097775,-0.020478,-0.00481675,-0.01370775,0.01219825,0.015483,0.00541575,0.0055935,0.0024075,0.01260275,0.00491525,-0.018672,-0.03533625,-0.00269425
AUT_LBK_N:Avg,0.122075375,0.183937875,0.015792,-0.088542375,0.064242625,-0.04280975,-0.002320625,-0.003778875,0.04499525,0.086038125,0.00793675,0.010509375,-0.020403625,0.002528875,-0.038205375,-0.012960625,0.0148475,0.0011245,0.014643625,-0.00964525,-0.006738,0.009830375,-0.00585425,-0.006491875,-0.00585275
ITA_N:Avg,0.1237256,0.1804595,0.0142173,-0.0789412,0.0601651,-0.0393792,-0.0045356,-0.0041076,0.0448929,0.0854687,0.0034102,0.014537,-0.0250643,-0.0053535,-0.0301435,-0.0051974,0.0187754,0.0022805,0.0079819,-0.0086792,-0.0063386,0.0032891,-0.0049669,-0.0119414,-0.0007425
ITA_Sardinia_N:Avg,0.126217166666667,0.178564,0.0427822777777778,-0.0560763888888889,0.0788693888888889,-0.0303680555555556,-0.00400816666666667,-0.000282,0.0600732222222222,0.0990455,0.00119977777777778,0.0165268888888889,-0.0346132222222222,-0.0150925555555556,-0.0187669444444444,-0.00144377777777778,0.0134731111111111,0.00211144444444444,0.00486027777777778,-0.0112137222222222,0.00167055555555556,0.00280272222222222,-0.0120851111111111,-0.0285113333333333,0.00118427777777778
ITA_Sicily_MN:Avg,0.1186605,0.17555975,0.0204115,-0.07275575,0.065704375,-0.0393935,-0.0073145,-0.00432675,0.04542975,0.0848535,0.00379575,0.00962875,-0.020459375,-0.004042625,-0.031538,-0.0044085,0.01962275,0.003484,0.008484625,-0.0115525,-0.00430475,0.006677375,-0.00756425,-0.01322475,-0.003802
ITA_CA:Avg,0.124067285714286,0.179603857142857,0.0323248571428571,-0.0631234285714286,0.0695074285714286,-0.0337458571428571,-0.00419642857142857,-0.00286814285714286,0.0490857142857143,0.0880982857142857,0.00183257142857143,0.0137662857142857,-0.0266104285714286,-0.00241814285714286,-0.0206488571428571,-0.00505728571428571,0.0129078571428571,-0.000343857142857143,0.00585414285714286,-0.006789,-0.00262028571428571,0.0106341428571429,-0.0100887142857143,-0.0191248571428571,-0.000616
ITA_Sardinia_CA:Avg,0.128269846153846,0.179905,0.0428467692307692,-0.0568728461538461,0.0794230769230769,-0.0307423076923077,-0.00287430769230769,-0.000816461538461539,0.0587141538461538,0.100173923076923,0.000312153846153846,0.016589,-0.0345236153846154,-0.0154242307692308,-0.0181028461538462,-0.000173461538461539,0.0137606153846154,0.00343030769230769,0.00431238461538461,-0.011621,0.000873384615384615,0.00211146153846154,-0.0112913846153846,-0.0284284615384615,0.000902846153846154
POL_BKG_N:Avg,0.121600833333333,0.171793666666667,0.0336266666666667,-0.0614238333333333,0.0693461666666667,-0.0323976666666667,0.000391666666666667,-0.000230833333333333,0.0459496666666667,0.0785738333333333,0.0023545,0.009391,-0.0177153333333333,0.00309666666666667,-0.0301073333333333,-0.00556883333333333,0.0116476666666667,0.00287166666666667,0.0128631666666667,-0.0093795,-0.0042425,0.00748116666666667,-0.00796983333333333,-0.0190388333333333,-0.00347283333333333
POL_Globular_Amphora:Avg,0.128294857142857,0.170101357142857,0.0588578571428571,-0.0259092142857143,0.0830045,-0.0214147857142857,0.00129257142857143,0.00702164285714286,0.0525772142857143,0.0728814285714286,0.000464,0.0100946428571429,-0.0171702142857143,-0.0066255,-0.0132132142857143,0.000606142857142857,0.00724564285714286,0.00614428571428571,0.00683264285714286,-5.35714285714284E-05,0.00962578571428572,0.00711878571428571,-0.0137949285714286,-0.0258728571428571,0.000213928571428572
CZE_EE:Avg,0.127237964285714,0.17097175,0.0509921071428571,-0.0404442142857143,0.0819822142857143,-0.0237257142857143,-0.000654642857142857,0.00443392857142857,0.0550607857142857,0.0779645357142857,0.000144928571428572,0.0109027857142857,-0.022315,-0.00614885714285714,-0.0161603214285714,0.000895,0.0154737142857143,0.004122,0.00753732142857143,-0.00224225,0.00953217857142857,0.006483,-0.01290575,-0.0280934285714286,0.000440464285714286
CZE_ME:Avg,0.124392285714286,0.169956214285714,0.0544939285714286,-0.0342841428571429,0.0824109285714286,-0.0206178571428571,0.000419714285714286,0.00456571428571428,0.0517447142857143,0.0746646428571428,0.00145,0.00639064285714286,-0.0203134285714286,-0.00460057142857143,-0.0150649285714286,-0.0001135,0.0111852142857143,0.00594535714285714,0.00472271428571429,-0.00364464285714286,0.00912671428571428,0.00552028571428571,-0.0128618571428571,-0.0287389285714286,0.000350714285714286
CZE_N:Avg,0.125611857142857,0.1793135,0.0332404285714286,-0.0636540714285714,0.0725628571428572,-0.0344431428571429,-0.00334035714285714,0.000164857142857143,0.049933,0.0792597142857143,0.00394357142857143,0.0102338571428571,-0.0220018571428571,0.000186785714285714,-0.0274639285714286,-0.0030685,0.0150593571428571,0.00213557142857143,0.010442,-0.00544014285714286,-0.000641785714285715,0.00774578571428571,-0.0089355,-0.0144768571428571,-0.00251485714285714
HRV_N:Avg,0.120146555555556,0.181140333333333,0.0140232962962963,-0.0905238518518519,0.0603644814814815,-0.0414411111111111,-0.003203,-0.00304266666666667,0.0446619259259259,0.0861436666666667,0.00674807407407407,0.0135491111111111,-0.0230973703703704,-0.0010142962962963,-0.0379764814814815,-0.0122081111111111,0.0167615185185185,0.000957222222222222,0.0104841481481481,-0.00956937037037037,-0.0106200740740741,0.00504222222222222,-0.00389837037037037,-0.005516,-0.00431981481481481
HRV_C:Avg,0.124855230769231,0.178420846153846,0.0197553846153846,-0.0804518461538462,0.0630176923076923,-0.0398383846153846,-0.00392269230769231,-0.00186384615384615,0.0435477692307692,0.0813753846153846,0.00635815384615385,0.0118281538461538,-0.0211212307692308,0.000889153846153846,-0.0356735384615385,-0.00687430769230769,0.0181736153846154,0.00319646153846154,0.0108293076923077,-0.00932169230769231,-0.00618146153846154,0.00513646153846154,-0.00841876923076923,-0.00939876923076923,-0.00648484615384615
HUN_ALP:Avg,0.1273395625,0.1750518125,0.0256206875,-0.0697074375,0.06933975,-0.0359594375,-0.00188,0.0002163125,0.0450975625,0.0796599375,0.0051050625,0.00957275,-0.0190470625,0.0032943125,-0.0369668125,-0.0100436875,0.013291125,0.00484575,0.010951375,-0.0091841875,-0.00535775,0.0079833125,-0.007911,-0.015243,-0.0041686875
HUN_Koros_N:Avg,0.11922975,0.176702,0.01687625,-0.08648375,0.0583185,-0.04629575,-0.0029375,-0.00092275,0.04223425,0.08309975,0.00864725,0.012364,-0.019846,0.00271825,-0.0356265,-0.00792225,0.02366475,0.00288225,0.0120355,-0.009692,-0.01179175,0.00921225,-0.005207,-0.00680825,-0.00191575
HUN_LBK_MN:Avg,0.12463625,0.181526,0.01301075,-0.09310475,0.0572415,-0.04141525,-0.0029375,-0.0027115,0.04013775,0.085013,0.008769,0.012439,-0.02107275,0.0002065,-0.04200525,-0.0136565,0.011702,0.00031675,0.01313525,-0.015445,-0.013445,0.00961375,-0.0090895,-0.002621,-0.0017065
HUN_Lengyel_LN:Avg,0.126485875,0.175432625,0.019751625,-0.07840825,0.064242625,-0.040718,-0.004083375,-0.002538375,0.04473975,0.08134575,0.00929675,0.012607375,-0.020496625,0.000550375,-0.03695,-0.009115375,0.020568125,0.00229625,0.011281375,-0.0095985,-0.01388175,0.004096,-0.006778625,-0.007019,-0.00308375
HUN_Vinca_MN:Avg,0.1206525,0.176956,0.0088625,-0.08648325,0.05916475,-0.04239125,-0.00311375,-0.00311525,0.04412575,0.0825985,0.00799775,0.0136005,-0.020701,-0.002374,-0.038748,-0.00931425,0.02284975,0.002059,0.01153275,-0.00891075,-0.00976425,0.0069245,-0.004098,-0.00247025,-0.0108075
HUN_Tisza_LN:Avg,0.125964333333333,0.181779666666667,0.0267753333333333,-0.0669686666666667,0.065858,-0.038394,-0.00728533333333333,0.002846,0.0411773333333333,0.0775716666666667,0.006604,0.00694366666666667,-0.0178393333333333,0.00389933333333333,-0.0346086666666667,-0.012861,0.00438933333333333,-0.001478,0.009637,-0.010088,-0.00424266666666667,0.00214333333333333,-0.00776466666666667,-0.00819366666666667,-0.00307366666666667
HUN_Starcevo_N:Avg,0.121790666666667,0.1882115,0.00766816666666667,-0.0975461666666667,0.0612421666666667,-0.050154,-0.0038385,-0.00646116666666667,0.0453701666666667,0.0869571666666667,0.007443,0.0121141666666667,-0.0226213333333333,0.00568816666666667,-0.0386576666666667,-0.0207505,0.010322,0.001478,0.0113965,-0.0176335,-0.0132683333333333,0.0101808333333333,-0.000410666666666667,-0.00532183333333333,-0.00526883333333333
HUN_Baden_LCA:Avg,0.128999555555556,0.175348111111111,0.0307144444444444,-0.063308,0.0698933333333333,-0.0328781111111111,-0.00310733333333333,0.000102444444444445,0.0452223333333333,0.0802445555555556,0.00461922222222222,0.0135713333333333,-0.0224972222222222,0.000841111111111111,-0.0289986666666667,-0.004788,0.0137481111111111,0.003139,0.0125138888888889,-0.00775366666666667,-0.004714,0.00607288888888889,-0.00540911111111111,-0.0166152222222222,0.000359111111111111
HUN_LCA:Avg,0.121790666666667,0.168578,0.02753,-0.0580323333333333,0.0702693333333333,-0.0269596666666667,-0.00203666666666667,-0.00161533333333333,0.040973,0.07988,0.001624,0.00959133333333333,-0.019772,0.00133033333333333,-0.029587,0.0122866666666667,0.0246423333333333,0.00540533333333333,0.00905,-0.00650333333333333,-0.00486633333333333,0.00865566666666667,-0.006286,-0.0130943333333333,-0.000359333333333333
HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:Avg,0.127861333333333,0.177040666666667,0.0252673333333333,-0.0708446666666667,0.072321,-0.028726,-0.006502,0.000384666666666667,0.0489493333333333,0.080184,0.004276,0.007943,-0.0158076666666667,0.00477066666666667,-0.035785,-0.0132146666666667,0.00982233333333333,0.000126666666666667,0.0106006666666667,-0.00712866666666667,-0.00561533333333333,0.00255566666666667,-0.002917,-0.00887666666666667,-0.00303366666666667
HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA:Avg,0.12719725,0.17720975,0.02686975,-0.07146375,0.064858,-0.0347915,-0.0038775,0.001096,0.051489,0.079455,0.008566,0.013001,-0.02192775,0.0047135,-0.03325125,-0.00971225,0.01603725,0.0024705,0.00980475,-0.01250575,-0.009296,0.006399,-0.0082575,-0.0144295,0.00014975
SRB_N:Avg,0.129378666666667,0.183134,0.011188,-0.097869,0.0588826666666667,-0.0449943333333333,-0.00156666666666667,-0.00707666666666667,0.0407686666666667,0.0896603333333333,0.00319366666666667,0.015586,-0.0223486666666667,4.60000000000003E-05,-0.0417566666666667,-0.015513,0.0200356666666667,0.000253666666666667,0.0111033333333333,-0.0124643333333333,-0.00540733333333333,0.004328,-0.00772366666666667,0.00453866666666667,0.000279333333333333
SRB_CBA:Avg,0.1257745,0.1777175,0.02621,-0.071706,0.065243,-0.0355585,-0.0015275,-0.002308,0.0466315,0.0789995,0.003004,0.015436,-0.023414,0.004748,-0.0310125,-0.0127285,0.0215135,0.007728,0.007416,-0.004502,-0.006426,0.0057495,-0.0110305,-0.0181955,-0.0083225
ROU_N:Avg,0.1246365,0.18406475,0.0118795,-0.0973845,0.061396,-0.04894525,-0.00475875,-0.0047305,0.04637575,0.092075,0.006861,0.01442475,-0.0239715,0.0036815,-0.0477395,-0.01431975,0.019199,0.008203,0.01461225,-0.00912925,-0.01553525,0.006059,-0.00714825,0.0038255,-0.00874175
ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_C:Avg,0.125117807692308,0.178303538461538,0.0271961923076923,-0.0701655384615385,0.0668288846153846,-0.0362665,-0.00272057692307692,-0.00151765384615385,0.0419824230769231,0.0785858076923077,0.00334776923076923,0.00955719230769231,-0.0189141923076923,-0.000158884615384616,-0.0332671538461538,-0.00517096153846154,0.0183942307692308,0.00189546153846154,0.00946603846153846,-0.00597884615384615,-0.00552869230769231,0.00722415384615385,-0.00926253846153846,-0.0141354230769231,-0.00385030769230769
ROU_C:Avg,0.12548975,0.17060875,0.02413575,-0.063308,0.06578125,-0.03311825,0,-0.00080775,0.0411605,0.0726665,0.0031665,0.00966625,-0.0185455,-3.44999999999998E-05,-0.0303675,-0.0063975,0.0158415,0.00047525,0.013167,-0.00703475,-0.0031195,0.005348,-0.006686,-0.0146705,-0.0035925
ALB_NC:Avg,0.124067,0.1848265,0.0041485,-0.101745,0.045239,-0.047272,-0.0034075,-0.003,0.037837,0.0807305,0.00885,0.0114645,-0.0235625,0.000826,-0.0399695,-0.017303,0.007823,0.00057,0.0088615,-0.0184465,-0.0104815,0.0059355,-0.0032045,-0.0006625,-0.0079035
GRC_N:Avg,0.119134833333333,0.177548333333333,-0.00691383333333333,-0.0980306666666667,0.043649,-0.043228,-0.00207583333333333,-0.00492283333333333,0.0276108333333333,0.0755976666666667,0.00617066666666667,0.0126888333333333,-0.0233148333333333,-0.00190383333333333,-0.0372553333333333,-0.00791116666666667,0.0221435,0.00109783333333333,0.0093435,-0.0137983333333333,-0.0171988333333333,0.002947,-0.0035125,-0.000361666666666667,-0.00469016666666667
BGR_N:Avg,0.1211077,0.1806626,0.0114268,-0.0889219,0.0541641,-0.045515,-0.000188,-0.0028151,0.0397187,0.0845575,0.0116594,0.0139526,-0.022864,-0.0011148,-0.0366987,-0.0141739,0.0211353,0.0055363,0.0081705,-0.0132563,-0.0116794,0.0063558,-0.0049793,-0.0041089,-0.0098674
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
TUR_Catalhoyuk_N_Ceramic:Avg,0.0967496666666667,0.177717666666667,-0.00842233333333333,-0.119295666666667,0.0318003333333333,-0.0573583333333333,-0.00148833333333333,-0.0179993333333333,0.0212023333333333,0.0619603333333333,0.0145606666666667,0.00419633333333333,-0.016551,0.00775266666666667,-0.0313966666666667,-0.027932,0.003955,0.00114033333333333,0.0198183333333333,-0.0136733333333333,-0.011563,0.008738,-0.00435466666666667,0.00622566666666667,-0.00746433333333333
IRN_TepeHissar_C:Avg,0.0780204545454546,0.0983218181818182,-0.120918545454545,-0.0128612727272727,-0.0963815454545454,0.0127782727272727,0.0129470909090909,-0.00505581818181818,-0.0701888181818182,-0.0367123636363636,-0.00394154545454545,-0.00129436363636364,-0.00114881818181818,-0.00295263636363636,0.0196547272727273,0.0289646363636364,-0.00679172727272727,0.00532090909090909,0.00764481818181818,-0.0237274545454545,0.00626190909090909,-0.0142986363636364,-0.00521,-0.0225331818181818,0.0140867272727273
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG:Avg,0.13046975,0.11805525,0.1794505,0.174532,0.1301396875,0.05351209375,0.01399796875,0.0320540625,0.06475096875,-0.00843409375,-0.00892628125,-0.0168138125,0.02473340625,-4.21874999999999E-06,0.032080875,0.04726409375,0.00466528125,0.0055781875,-0.006768,0.04741340625,0.07336275,0.01101284375,-0.03336925,-0.12037075,0.01111040625
WHG:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
Yamnaya_Avg:,0.120715777777778,0.0878996666666667,0.0439556111111111,0.113661111111111,-0.0293728888888889,0.0448704444444444,0.00420394444444444,-0.00333322222222222,-0.0553464444444444,-0.0740585555555556,0.000496055555555556,0.000366388888888889,-0.00175922222222222,-0.0232582222222222,0.0337866666666667,0.0136272222222222,-0.000992444444444444,-0.00304055555555556,-0.00233938888888889,0.0107411666666667,-0.00358394444444444,0.000583888888888889,0.0101952777777778,0.0198688333333333,-0.0037055
Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER),0.1253507,0.10915866,0.056808809,0.089148191,0.0044132128,0.033087128,0.0037300426,0.00056465957,-0.028402702,-0.041441191,-0.0014857447,0.00009887234,-0.0056111064,-0.014620191,0.026595404,0.0083559362,-0.0093626809,0.0014421702,-0.0005696383,0.0058938085,0.0016965106,0.0034095532,0.0045051064,0.015449404,-0.0021528511
Uralic(RUS_HG),0.10471733,-0.068040567,0.095076233,0.1915759,-0.082477,0.043630767,-0.0425109,-0.048331333,-0.032042,-0.088526,0.022084667,-0.0095581,0.026246767,-0.071105233,0.024595433,0.017958433,-0.012908,-0.0047716667,-0.00019543333,0.0012226667,-0.031680433,0.013217333,0.023992333,0.0063325667,-0.0095001
TUR_SE_Mardin_PPN:I8432,0.071709,0.131003,-0.084098,-0.097223,-0.052625,-0.032909,-0.009165,-0.011307,-0.020861,-0.009841,0.026469,-0.007044,0.009812,0.014175,-0.005836,0.000663,-0.002217,0.006081,-0.000377,0.002876,-0.000749,0.012984,-0.001849,-0.023618,0.008861
Levant_PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
Click to expand...


Distance to: Veritus_scaled
0.10972295 POL_Globular_Amphora:Avg
0.11188982 CZE_ME:Avg
0.11330802 ROU_C:Avg
0.11709975 POL_BKG_N:Avg
0.11768397 HUN_LCA:Avg
0.11851747 CZE_EE:Avg
0.12000560 HUN_Tisza_LN:Avg
0.12073917 HUN_Baden_LCA:Avg
0.12361938 CZE_N:Avg
0.12447406 ROU_Bodrogkeresztur_C:Avg
0.12480686 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:Avg
0.12521245 HUN_ALP:Avg
0.12542051 DEU_MN:Avg
0.12665125 ITA_CA:Avg
0.12725682 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA:Avg
0.12822759 SRB_CBA:Avg
0.13063134 ITA_Sicily_MN:Avg
0.13309983 HRV_C:Avg
0.13325750 HUN_Lengyel_LN:Avg
0.13465782 ITA_N:Avg
0.13935397 HUN_Koros_N:Avg
0.14005894 Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER)
0.14036978 HUN_Vinca_MN:Avg
0.14053432 ITA_Sardinia_N:Avg
0.14170919 ITA_Sardinia_CA:Avg


Target: Veritus_scaled
Distance: 0.0226% / 0.02255604
43.2 Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER)
28.1 HUN_Tisza_LN
17.3 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA
6.9 TUR_Catalhoyuk_N_Ceramic
4.4 IRN_TepeHissar_C
0.1 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG




.......................................................


Target: LiburnianG25
Distance: 0.0084% / 0.00839433
43.5 Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER)
33.9 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA
11.0 ALB_NC
4.9 POL_Globular_Amphora
3.8 IRN_TepeHissar_C
2.1 HUN_Starcevo_N
0.8 GEO_CHG
 
torzio said:
Venice owned half of Istria from 900 AD to 1797
owned Liburnia, Dalmatia and coastal montenegro from 1435 to 1797
owned corfu from 1205-1797
and very many greek islands as well
in Albaina...not very long..Butrint for 1 year and Durres 1392-1501
Click to expand...


Butrint exchanged hands quite often. Sometime in the 1600s the Ottomans gained full control. Because of this, the plains north of Butrint were not densely settled. When the Ottomans got full control the local Albanian Muslims laid claim to all the good land and brought Greeks from the mountains as tenants. East of Saranda is full of Greek villages, its probably the most Greek area in Albania. If Venice was there for only a year, there would not be a Greek ethnic wedge between Chams and Labs.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
Butrint exchanged hands quite often. Sometime in the 1600s the Ottomans gained full control. Because of this, the plains north of Butrint were not densely settled. When the Ottomans got full control the local Albanian Muslims laid claim to all the good land and brought Greeks from the mountains as tenants. East of Saranda is full of Greek villages, its probably the most Greek area in Albania. If Venice was there for only a year, there would not be a Greek ethnic wedge between Chams and Labs.
Click to expand...


I might be wrong about Butrint

Venetian contol in map below...click the town for more info

https://www.romeartlover.it/Venezia.html

The Venetian possession of Butrinto was not without interruptions, but in 1718 the Peace of Passarowitz formally certified that the site including the lake belonged to the Republic.

says Venice bought it from Naples in 1401 ...but does not say how long they controlled it for
 
torzio said:
I might be wrong about Butrint
Venetian contol in map below...click the town for more info
https://www.romeartlover.it/Venezia.html
The Venetian possession of Butrinto was not without interruptions, but in 1718 the Peace of Passarowitz formally certified that the site including the lake belonged to the Republic.
says Venice bought it from Naples in 1401 ...but does not say how long they controlled it for
Click to expand...


It exchanged hands many tmies, but Venice would counter and reclaim it quickly. After the 1600s, Venice active wars with the Ottoman wane down, and the local leading Muslim families begin to take over the former frontier lands and establish cifliks(serfdom estates).
 
If we can deduce somehow if not by aDNA directly, IMO there is a chance Vatin represents as a culture an admixture between the three Albanian Y-DNA's. A cultural complex where they met, E-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103. An educated guess.
 
Hawk said:
If we can deduce somehow if not by aDNA directly, IMO there is a chance Vatin represents as a culture an admixture between the three Albanian Y-DNA's. A cultural complex where they met, E-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103. An educated guess.
Click to expand...

A good chance.

From aDNA we have individual Illyrians that deviate toward the Cimm-MJ12 & Skopje I10379 profile, though never the same. And we have the same situation with E-V13 individuals that are both Cimm-MJ12/Skopje I10379 profile and Thracian like. From this we can deduct that between the Thracians and Illyrians lived a 3rd block. If Thracians and Illyrians lived side by side in BA, we would detect this contact in some of the Illyrian aDNA BA samples, but we we never find such admixed individuals among Illyrians.

We are simplifying things here, because in the BA Balkans also lived Greeks, MKD Ohrid might represent partially a northern Hellenic profile before they migrated south. Even R1b-PF7562-3 during the BA might have represented its own cluster. By Iron Age these groups had become minor players and irrelevant.

Reading up on Vatin, they don't seem to have been uniform. Though the authors don't state it (they never offer clear opinions), it looks like Vatin was being intruded by competing groups, and multiple groups/traditions are represented in it's material culture, it's not a coherent culture. Any remains from there would likely turn out R1b-Z2103, the incoming E-V13 would likely cremate and be invisible in samples.

The Serb archeologists also suggest Vatin might played a role on the formation of Brnjica culture though they don't go into any detail of how. They were likely related to begin with, and a portion of the Vatin original population would have taken refuge in the south to escape the pressure from the north.
Brnjica's culture distribution seems impossible not to be associated with R1b-Z2103, it is the only candidate that satisfies the geographic criteria and the timeline.
 
Hawk said:
If we can deduce somehow if not by aDNA directly, IMO there is a chance Vatin represents as a culture an admixture between the three Albanian Y-DNA's. A cultural complex where they met, E-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-Z2103. An educated guess.
Click to expand...

There is another issue though, because Vatin is right at the route from Encrusted Pottery in Western Pannonia to Monteoru and Bulgarian BA samples, which are all high in I2+G2 and higher in WHG. So I see practically no way they could be completely without I2+G2 and a similar component as well, because this seems to have been the "Danubian combo", from the Middle to the Lower Danube, in the EBA-MBA. Vatin might be syncretistic with influences going many ways, but it would be odd if this central part of the puzzle along the Danubian route would be so different from the rest left and right alike.

That's a major part of my argument that we need a large block, and this fairly huge block which later largely dissolved being very clearly dominated by I2+G2/increased WHG/contacts to Encrusted Pottery-related groups. The Monteoru and BA Bulgarian samples are more like Encrusted Pottery from Western Pannonia along the Danube than the Kyjatice-Western fringe G?va related (HUN_LBA) and even more different from the Proto-Illyrian, more Bell Beaker-like Cetina/J-L283 people.
So I'm really envisioning three major blocks in this MBA-LBA period, and Vatin looks like being part of the middle block which got kind of squeezed to death by the combined efforts of G?va-related Channelled Ware from the North, steppe groups from the East (Noua-Sabatinovka, then Cimmerians and Scythians), Proto-Illyrians from the West and Mycenaeans/Aegeo-Anatolian pushes from the South.
In this model I don't see this middle block doing well or expanding in the right time frame at all, but being largely replaced especially by the G?va-related/steppe related (Noua+Cimmerian) combo group, which resulted in the Thracians.
 
Riverman said:
There is another issue though, because Vatin is right at the route from Encrusted Pottery in Western Pannonia to Monteoru and Bulgarian BA samples, which are all high in I2+G2 and higher in WHG. So I see practically no way they could be completely without I2+G2 and a similar component as well, because this seems to have been the "Danubian combo", from the Middle to the Lower Danube, in the EBA-MBA. Vatin might be syncretistic with influences going many ways, but it would be odd if this central part of the puzzle along the Danubian route would be so different from the rest left and right alike.

That's a major part of my argument that we need a large block, and this fairly huge block which later largely dissolved being very clearly dominated by I2+G2/increased WHG/contacts to Encrusted Pottery-related groups. The Monteoru and BA Bulgarian samples are more like Encrusted Pottery from Western Pannonia along the Danube than the Kyjatice-Western fringe G�va related (HUN_LBA) and even more different from the Proto-Illyrian, more Bell Beaker-like Cetina/J-L283 people.
So I'm really envisioning three major blocks in this MBA-LBA period, and Vatin looks like being part of the middle block which got kind of squeezed to death by the combined efforts of G�va-related Channelled Ware from the North, steppe groups from the East (Noua-Sabatinovka, then Cimmerians and Scythians), Proto-Illyrians from the West and Mycenaeans/Aegeo-Anatolian pushes from the South.
In this model I don't see this middle block doing well or expanding in the right time frame at all, but being largely replaced especially by the G�va-related/steppe related (Noua+Cimmerian) combo group, which resulted in the Thracians.
Click to expand...

First and foremost there was no Mycenean/Aegeo-Anatolian push from South, neither Proto-Illyrian from West to Vatin. Secondly Vatin is not Encrusted Pottery Culture, it's considered as part of Balkan-Carpathian cultural complex and perhaps there is a chance they were migrants from further South, Bubanj-Hum.

If you consider Vatin as I2+G2 block, then why shouldn't Gava be even more I2+G2 considering it's further north? Think about it. Iron Age Psenicevo full with E-V13, if you reverse engineer the archaeological records, it has a relationship with Insula Banului and Insula Banului is descended from Dubovac Zuto Brdo/Grla-Mara. And the so called Cruceni-Belegis which is essentially mixed Vatin+Encrusted Pottery is related to Garla Mara probably mixed Verbicoara + Encrusted Pottery. If we exclude Encrusted Pottery as E-V13 origin, what we are left is with the original Balkan-Carpathian elements: Verbicoara, Vatin and likely to some degree Hatvan and Ottomany/Gava eventually, and in these two cultural complexes Southern colonizers going up north.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Culture_with_the_Zuto_Brdo-Garla_Mare_Culture
 
Hawk said:
First and foremost there was no Mycenean/Aegeo-Anatolian push from South, neither Proto-Illyrian from West to Vatin. Secondly Vatin is not Encrusted Pottery Culture, it's considered as part of Balkan-Carpathian cultural complex and perhaps there is a chance they were migrants from further South, Bubanj-Hum.
Click to expand...

I didn't say they were like Encrusted Pottery, but I said they likely got contacts/admixture/uniparentals also from these neighbours to their left and right.

If you consider Vatin as I2+G2 block, then why shouldn't Gava be even more I2+G2 considering it's further north?
Click to expand...

Because they have a different genetic profile. We already see it when comparing the HUN_LBA (without outliers) and Late G?va derived Mezocsat locals to Monteoru and Encrusted Pottery. The ratio of EEF : WHG : Steppe is different. The difference is already visible in the early Western Pre-G?va and fringe samples, but its even more pronounced in the Late G?va Mezocsat ones:
Encrusted-vs-Channelled-Ware.jpg


Note that from Encrusted Pottery to Monteoru only the EEF/Aegean part increases, otherwise the WHG : steppe ratio is pretty much the same as in Encrusted Pottery. So are the uniparentals (I2 and G2) and I don't think that we find the same pattern in BA Bulgaria is pure chance.

And I also don't think that Vatin must have been the same, but they were in between, between these two related groups along the Danube.


Higher steppe and lower WHG in comparison to the block which was running from Western Pannnonia to the Lower Danube (Bulgaria-Southern Romania) is typical for Mezocsat - with the outlier exception, so the extremely high WHG group was still around, as we know and I'm struggling how it fits into the greater scheme of things.

Think about it. Iron Age Psenicevo full with E-V13, if you reverse engineer the archaeological records, it has a relationship with Insula Banului and Insula Banului is descended from Dubovac Zuto Brdo/Grla-Mara. And the so called Cruceni-Belegis which is essentially mixed Vatin+Encrusted Pottery is related to Garla Mara probably mixed Verbicoara + Encrusted Pottery. If we exclude Encrusted Pottery as E-V13 origin, what we are left is with the original Balkan-Carpathian elements: Verbicoara, Vatin and likely to some degree Hatvan and Ottomany/Gava eventually, and in these two cultural complexes Southern colonizers going up north.
Click to expand...

The question is how Vatin relates to the others, but then again, the groups you mentioned being largely succeeded by Encrusted Pottery and G?va-related Channelled Ware groups with the rest coming from Noua-Coslogeni/Noua-Wietenberg. Going by the archaeological record, Vatin was just running out and being replaced by G?va-related groups.

So it might have played an unknown role before, we don't know it, but by the LBA-EIA transition it couldn't have been the major player we are searching for. And what makes me really sceptical is this Danubian block I'm talking about, which was characterised by a specific Steppe:WHG ratio and dominance of I2-G2 in particular. Looking at similar finds from Western Pannonia to Southern Romania-Bulgaria makes me wonder about that. Its no evidence for how exactly every Central Balkan group looked of course, but its a good reason to suspicious imho and searching somewhere else first.

The so far made, potentially G?va related finds have in the early Western fringe region a ratio of 2:1 for steppe:WHG and later in Mezocsat approaching 3:1. The Encrusted Pottery/I2-G2 dominated groups have usually 1:1 to 1,5:1 as their ratio. Even some of the early Bronze Age Buglarian samples we got have a more even steppe:WHG ratio interestingly, with the exception of the clearly Yamnaya/steppe invader derived samples.

Just hints and indications without more samples. But the Danube was no barrier, but a connection instead. So if to the left and right we got a specific profile, chances are we had at least a similar influence in between as well.
 
I don't see any breakthrough pattern there. I still maintain my opinion. It's about the odds, and my hypothesis have better odds. Of course, i might change my opinion if new facts contradict my current belief.
 
Hawk said:
I don't see any breakthrough pattern there. I still maintain my opinion. It's about the odds, and my hypothesis have better odds. Of course, i might change my opinion if new facts contradict my current belief.
Click to expand...

It doesn't prove anything with certainty, but again, its an indication that we deal with a continuous population living along the Danube at some point and my guess is that E-V13 was not directly related to them but came from the Transylvanian-Moldovan block North of it.
 
Riverman said:
It doesn't prove anything with certainty, but again, its an indication that we deal with a continuous population living along the Danube at some point and my guess is that E-V13 was not directly related to them but came from the Transylvanian-Moldovan block North of it.
Click to expand...

Both of us know that Transylvanian-Moldovan block doesn't work for various reasons. It's too east IMO.
 
Hawk said:
Both of us know that Transylvanian-Moldovan block doesn't work for various reasons. It's too east IMO.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. If you read up on Berkesz-Demecser and G?va, you see that the source was rather to the East and not to the West. We have to look for Suciu de Sus and Wietenberg, as well as more Eastern groups. The MBA is completely unknown in this respect, but by the LBA that's imho pretty sure as of yet. Eastern Otomani/Gyulavarsand into Suciu de Sus and Lapus II-G?va is what I would concentrate primarily.

Everything West of that zone was largely dominated by Tumulus culture groups (R-L51/R-L2 dominated) and the F?zesabony-Otomani (Kostany-Mierzanowice derived and R-Z282 dominated) anyway, Encrusted Pottery-related groups (the very block I was talking about) to the South along the Danube and steppe groups to the East which were R-Z93 dominated (Noua-Sabatinovka, Srubna derived). Basically the main remaining block, and the most important in the crucial LBA-EIA transition is just G?va-related Channelled Ware on top of the rest.
The main independent groups of importance being Suciu de Sus into Berkesz-Demecser and Lapus I into G?va and Wietenberg into Noua-Wietenberg and Coslogeni, being largely soaked up by Channelled Ware as well.
Remind you on the size of E-V13 and its radical demographic expansion in the LBA. Downward going regional groups can't account for that, even less if being largely replaced subsequently.

A key question is how Suciu de Sus emerged from the wider Eastern Otomani sphere in the first place.

1920px-Epoca_bronzului_mijlocie_si_tarzie_in_Romania.jpg



https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoca...a_bronzului_mijlocie_si_tarzie_in_Romania.jpg

The Central Balkan area around Vatin is an unknown indeed, but then again, they being connected along the Danube to the West and East with groups which had this specific ratio of steppe:WHG and were I2+G2 dominated, both in Hungary and Southern Romania-Bulgaria. Its a perfect fit that Channelled Ware largely replaced all these groups in the Central and Eastern Balkans in the Transitional Period.

That doesn't mean that Vatin couldn't have had E-V13 as well, but it won't be the important LBA source.
 
Look how nicely the map represent Verbicoara, Vatin and up to north some influences probably were present in Mures, Lapus and Suciu de Sus. These are just small cultures which are known under the ombrella of Balkan-Carpathian complex. I would summarize it like that for now. Eastern-Urnfielder/Balkan-Carpathian, more specifically how, and which one was the source, beyond Middle Bronze Age is speculation IMO.
 
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