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Do modern Europeans partly descend from Neanderthal ?

I predict that in the future a Neanderthal Y-DNA will be discovered in a living male. Maybe it is carried by only 1 in a few million males of Asia or Europe.
 
I believe 1-2% is avg for most humans 2-5% for most neanderthal maximum.
 
jeffmiller234 said:
I predict that in the future a Neanderthal Y-DNA will be discovered in a living male. Maybe it is carried by only 1 in a few million males of Asia or Europe.
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There has to be some A Y-haplogroup and L mt-haplogroup in Europe that's from very ancient populations rather than from africans.

Along those lines we may discover a neandertal haplogroup, that I suspect to be younger than those of current samples
 
jeffmiller234 said:
I predict that in the future a Neanderthal Y-DNA will be discovered in a living male. Maybe it is carried by only 1 in a few million males of Asia or Europe.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Neanderthals lived in small groups and were likely easily wiped out by larger groups of mainly male migrants into their regions. The male Neanderthals that is.
 
firetown said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Neanderthals lived in small groups and were likely easily wiped out by larger groups of mainly male migrants into their regions. The male Neanderthals that is.
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Could be possible but very unlikely. A african american male was discovered with a rare Y dna
https://www.sci.news/genetics/artic...re African American,tree to 338,000 years ago.


Study Says Oldest Known Human Y-Chromosome Branch Dates to 338,000 Years Ago


About 300,000 years ago falls around the time the Neanderthals are believed to have split from the ancestral human lineage. It was not until more than 100,000 years later that anatomically modern humans appear in the fossil record. They differ from the more archaic forms by a more lightly built skeleton, a smaller face tucked under a high forehead, the absence of a cranial ridge and smaller chins.

Prof Hammer said that the newly discovered Y chromosome variation is extremely rare. Through large database searches, his team eventually was able to find a similar chromosome in the Mbo, a population living in a tiny area of western Cameroon in sub-Saharan Africa.
 
firetown said:
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Neanderthals lived in small groups and were likely easily wiped out by larger groups of mainly male migrants into their regions. The male Neanderthals that is.
Click to expand...

Why was the mixing done by Sapiens males and Neanderthal females and not Neanderthal males and Sapiens females? It is easier for vanquished women than vanquished men, to have children with victors, but in this case it may not have been like that. Let me tell you a joke: Relationships between Homo Sapiens men and Neanderthal women could be difficult, Homo Sapiens men would find Neanderthal women were nightmare characters, and Neanderthals would find Homo Sapiens men were a bunch of treacherous homosexuals of a perverse intelligence. Communication may have been more important by the other side: Neanderthal men must have adored Sapiens women in the tropical sensuality of their dances and adornments. The first Sapiens Europeans may have been Women Sapiens kidnapped by Neanderthals. Neanderthals would do a great party with the Sapiens girls and with the daughters that they made with them. With the continuation of the addiction to this "tropical drug", these Neanderthal Raptors, of Neanderthals would only have the Y chromosome and would end up integrating into the Homo Sapiens groups."
 
jose luis said:
Why was the mixing done by Sapiens males and Neanderthal females and not Neanderthal males and Sapiens females?
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There is a paper from 2016 that analyses the Neanderthal Y chromosome and finds the presence of three genes known to cause immune reactions by the mothers immune system against the fetus. So no male hybrids if that was correct.
 
Theres no modern human with neanderthal haplogrouo
 
jose luis said:
Why was the mixing done by Sapiens males and Neanderthal females and not Neanderthal males and Sapiens females? It is easier for vanquished women than vanquished men, to have children with victors, but in this case it may not have been like that. Let me tell you a joke: Relationships between Homo Sapiens men and Neanderthal women could be difficult, Homo Sapiens men would find Neanderthal women were nightmare characters, and Neanderthals would find Homo Sapiens men were a bunch of treacherous homosexuals of a perverse intelligence. Communication may have been more important by the other side: Neanderthal men must have adored Sapiens women in the tropical sensuality of their dances and adornments. The first Sapiens Europeans may have been Women Sapiens kidnapped by Neanderthals. Neanderthals would do a great party with the Sapiens girls and with the daughters that they made with them. With the continuation of the addiction to this "tropical drug", these Neanderthal Raptors, of Neanderthals would only have the Y chromosome and would end up integrating into the Homo Sapiens groups."
Click to expand...


Let's say there were 30,000 Neanderthals at given times. Spread all over Europe and some Asia in communities of average 30. That would mean only 1000 Neanderthal villages. Out of all of those 30, how many were warrior aged males? maybe 7? How big were the groups of (mostly male?) sapiens migrating and then running into Neanderthal villages here and there?

Those males were hungry and they saw the villages and the females. What do you think happened? They were invited over for some tea and then left peacefully?

My guess would be that in the process of thousands of years, Neanderthal males wound up outnumbered and killed and then women taken to have Sapiens babies.

There may not be Neanderthal mtDNA haplogroups present today, but several likely derived from them.

I doubt any Neanderthal male ever had the opportunity to mate the sapiens females.
 
firetown said:
Let's say there were 30,000 Neanderthals at given times. Spread all over Europe and some Asia in communities of average 30. That would mean only 1000 Neanderthal villages. Out of all of those 30, how many were warrior aged males? maybe 7? How big were the groups of (mostly male?) sapiens migrating and then running into Neanderthal villages here and there?

Those males were hungry and they saw the villages and the females. What do you think happened? They were invited over for some tea and then left peacefully?

My guess would be that in the process of thousands of years, Neanderthal males wound up outnumbered and killed and then women taken to have Sapiens babies.

There may not be Neanderthal mtDNA haplogroups present today, but several likely derived from them.

I doubt any Neanderthal male ever had the opportunity to mate the sapiens females.
Click to expand...

Even if an isolated case happened, I read in some paper that the woman and child probably perished in childbirth because the Neanderthal skull would have had difficulty passing through the birth canal.
 
Past human expansions shaped the spatial pattern of Neanderthal ancestry
December 22, 2022.

The Out-of-Africa expansion of modern humans into Eurasia resulted in spatial gradients of Neanderthal ancestry that persisted through time. Moreover, while keeping the same gradient orientation, the expansion of early Neolithic farmers into western Eurasia contributed decisively to reducing the average level of Neandertal genomic introgression in European compared to Asian populations. This is because Neolithic farmers carried less Neanderthal DNA than preceding Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers.

https://doi.org/10.1101/2022.12.22.521596
 
The abduction of females is a much later invention, when Roman good-for-noughts go on a hunting spree for Sabinean women. In pre-history, people move and mate, at times willingly, at times men raping women, and they part ways, and the child stays with the mother's, never father's tribe.

I mean this is so simple and it perplexes me why people are so stupid not to see that right away from the onset. It happens with elephants too, the babe is raised by mother, aunts, granmother and grandaunts and will likely never encounter the father. Even among great apes, orangutan females who are loosely interconnected (not in tight groups like other great apes) will recongise each other's offspring that the father won't know it even exists. And so it was with huimans in the beginning to.
 
Maciamo said:
Evidence that Neanderthal could have survived well into modern times and could interbreed with Homo Sapiens

The Almas is a cryptozoological species of presumed hominid reputed to inhabit the Caucasus and Pamir Mountains of central Asia. In other words, they could be relict hominids, i.e. isolated descendents of ancient forms of humans, such as Neanderthal. Sometimes, these hominids are refered to as troglodytes.



One such hominid was captured in the wild in Abkhazia, Western Caucasus (now in Georgia) in the late 1800's. Her name was Zana (see article). She was buried near the village of Tkhina, but her remains were not yet found by modern scientists to examine her skull and DNA. She, however, had a son with a

Accounts of people who had seen Zana describe her as having black or dark grey skin (maybe partially from dirt, as she was imprisoned in a cage like a wild animal) with reddish black hair. After 3 years in a cage, Zana had became tamer and was released. She was particularily athletic, fast at both running and swimming.

She gave birth several times to "half-breed" children (with local villagers), and four of them (born between 1878 and 1884) are known to have been taken away from her and raised by local families. Contrarily to her who had been raised in the wild, her children could speak and behave like normal men and women, in spite of some strange physical and mental features.

The two sons (Dzhanda and Kwhit) and two daughters (Kodzhanar and Gamasa) had children of their own, whose descendents still live in that region. Khwit and Gamasa were given the surname Sabekia.

Kwhit died in 1954. His skull was examined by scientists, and indeed shows clear evidence of strong Neanderthal features mixed with modern features.

It is interesting to note that Gamasa and Khwit were described as darked skinned and powerfully built, but otherwise lacking Zana's facial apperance. Some genes are dominant and other recessive. This is why a child born to a European and an East Asian parent will look much more East Asian than European. The same is true of a child half Black African, and half European. So if Neanderthal contribute to modern European genes, it is likely that millenia of interbreeding have mostly erased most of their physical characteristics, leaving only to modern Europeans some very slight Neanderthal features not found among people elsewhere in the world.

British anthropologist Myra Shackley in "Still Living ?" describes Ivan Ivlov's 1963 observation of a whole family of Almas.
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I realize this post is over 15 years old, but several genetic studies have been performed on Zana and Kwhit's remains at this point. It was determined that Zana was of entirely Subsaharan West African heritage and Kwhit was predictably halfway between European and SSA populations. Their broad skeletal features are simply that of africans, not neanderthals. I find the idea of either of them having reddish hair extraordinarily unlikely.
 
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