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The diverse genetic origins of a Classical period Greek army

ihype02 said:
Huh, modern Lebanese seem to be fairly close to Iron Age Levantines. Coincidence?
Click to expand...

Middle Bronze Age Lebanese have more Levant_PPNB/Natufian than later Iron Age groups, which have less but in return have more EEF. From the Late Iron Age onward Iran_N and Steppe also increase making them in fact more similar to modern Lebanese. However, a distinction must be made between the religious groups in Lebanon, Christians have mingled much less with foreigners than Muslims, and in fact Christians have more PPNB/Natufian, EEF and less Steppe, SSA, North Africa.

Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
0.03193736 Lebanon_209_BC-AD_146
0.03414873 Lebanon_AD_323-544
0.03635570 Lebanon_770-435_BC
0.04670866 Lebanon_1825-1700_BC

Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
0.02675857 Lebanon_AD_323-544
0.02783526 Lebanon_209_BC-AD_146
0.02985133 Lebanon_770-435_BC
0.04151007 Lebanon_1825-1700_BC

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.01773163 Lebanon_770-435_BC
0.01838544 Lebanon_AD_323-544
0.02149691 Lebanon_209_BC-AD_146
0.03195106 Lebanon_1825-1700_BC
 
Francesco said:
Interesting to note how the difference between Northern and Southern Italy it's just a different proportion between basically the same haplogroups, with the latter showing a greater presence of Aegean derived lineages.
Click to expand...

Also interesting how little J1 is present in Southern Italy. The Aegean Greeks, on the other hand, have much more.
 
J1 is a mainstream founder haplogroup from the Eastern Wing of the Southern Arc always related to the cradle and birth of Indo-Anatolian and Indo-European languages. European culture and religion have always been profoundly shaped by J1 contributions.

Carnimirie said:
What's the deal with this Syrian fetish within the anthrofora community, wouldn't (South) Italians be J1 rich if that were the case?
Click to expand...
 
Ricardo said:
J1 is a mainstream founder haplogroup from the Eastern Wing of the Southern Arc always related to the cradle and birth of Indo-Anatolian and Indo-European languages. European culture and religion have always been profoundly shaped by J1 contributions.
Click to expand...

Ricardo: Given the history of of the amateur blogsphere commentary (much of it before ancient DNA analysis) regarding the ethnogenesis of Italians, Southern Italians (Southern Regions South of Lazio + Sicily) in particular, I suspect their might be more to the earlier post regarding Y Haplogroup J1 than just what impact J1 had on which culture or language formation or spread of said culture and languages.
 
J1 originated in the Caucasus, and displaced the native Levantine E haplogroups of the Natufians.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Ricardo: Given the history of of the amateur blogsphere commentary (much of it before ancient DNA analysis) regarding the ethnogenesis of Italians, Southern Italians (Southern Regions South of Lazio + Sicily) in particular, I suspect their might be more to the earlier post regarding Y Haplogroup J1 than just what impact J1 had on which culture or language formation or spread of said culture and languages.
Click to expand...

People aren't as slick as they think they are... :smile:
 
Jovialis said:
J1 originated in the Caucasus, and displaced the native Levantine E haplogroups of the Natufians.
Click to expand...

Indeed, and increased to high frequencies the further south one moves in the Levant because of founder effect and mating practices.

It amazes me how some amateurs can obsess over their own y lineage, or that of their own particular ethnic group, but ignore the main scientific purpose for the study of y lineages, which is to trace migration.

Instead we're subjected to autosomal analyses using a calculator discredited by its own creator, and questionable PCAs, some which are made by people who don't have the faintest idea how to do one.

Amazing.
 
Jovialis said:
J1 originated in the Caucasus, and displaced the native Levantine E haplogroups of the Natufians.
Click to expand...

correct
we E lost the ground
but they didn't finish us completely :laughing:
 
i see those L himera guys already made it to theytree site;-)

522oXevqqsvMSoxhYmOldh3emBkwpF7xEyilcIvno1s.jpg


https://www.theytree.com/tree/L-L595

_20220930_on_ancientdmercenaries_graves.jpg






522oXevqqsvMSoxhYmOldh3emBkwpF7xEyilcIvno1s.jpg
 
Hawk said:
That's impossible for various reasons.
Click to expand...
Agreed. E-V13 exists in every Greek population, including Cypriots that didn’t receive any meaningful slavic migration. It is very plausible that Peloponnesus has it higher than average partly due to arvanite input.
 
Angela said:
People aren't as slick as they think they are... :smile:
Click to expand...

Angela: Correct. RE your post #85 and 86, I think you are dead on. Reitsema et al 2022 (this paper) note that Phoenicians set up trading posts (they were Sea peoples) and the Greeks colonized. It is quite clear from all the historical sources that the Phoenicians and their successors (Carthaginians) used Mercenaries to fight their land wars and protect their trading posts. Regarding the Iron Age Sicilian samples, the Sicani as you note are likely autochthonous . Below are the new Iron Age Sicani Samples from Reitsema et al 2022 compared to all the Bronze Age Sicilian Samples that have been published to date (18 from Fernandes et al 2020, 1 Bronze Age Beaker from Olade et al 2018 and the one from Yu et al 2022). I just listed the closest 3 distances. Interesting that these samples are from the 5th century BC and the Phoenicians first set up trading posts on the Western Coast of Sicily in 9th century BC, yet those Iron Age Sicilians are in close genetic continuity with their Bronze Age Sicilian predecessors. Yes their was genetic input from the Levant (Phoenicians) and North Africa (Carthaginians) but it did not replace nor even change the genetic makeup of Sicily as even today the studies document a 4-4.5% admixture from Levant/North African sources in modern Sicily. This would include the Imperial Roman period, when of course their were Jewish Settlements in Sicily (Saint Pauls Journeys into Eastern Sicily confirm this) and the Saracen period. But again, during the Saracen rule of Sicily, it was a military conquest yes but again their is no evidence of a massive colonization of Sicily. Of course perhaps it was and their was a shift in the genetic profile in Sicily but after the Muslims were expelled and large numbers of Italians from the mainland moved in, it shifted back to what it was in my guess pre-Saracen invasion. I will not that there were 11 civilians from the West Himera Necropolis and I think 4 of them harbored North African ancestry. Here is the quote from the paper

"Itis notable that four of the eight individuals that could be analyzedwith ADMIXTURE carry a small proportion (2.2–3.8%) of agenetic component maximized in Africans that is not found tothe same extent in our other Sicilian individuals but appears inPunic and Levantine individuals (Fig. 2B), and the same individuals are shifted toward Levantine groups on the worldwide PCA"

So 3.8% is not much different statistically than what you find on average today in modern Sicily. For example, Sarno et al 2016 report "A similar, but even more extreme south-north gradient was observed also for the blue component highly representative of Northern African groups that was additionally detected in Middle East and, to a significant lower extent, in Southern Italy (4.6%, mainly in Sicily)."

Now it would be good to get Iron Age data from Sicily from the other areas where the indigenous Sicilians (Elymians in the NW) and Sicels from Central to Eastern Sicily and other parts of Italy from the Iron Age and time series data across up to 1500 AD in all areas. In terms of Sicily, which the paper is about, it seems however Sicilians got to where we are today, it may the case we might have changed a little over time (Everyone has) but the MENA admixture seems relatively constant, yes it might have had some inflection points where there was an increase (Jewish Groups in Sicily during the time of Saint Paul) and MENA influence during the Saracen rule, but it seems likely it came back to a relatively constant level as the Byzantines would have had Sicily after the Fall of Rome before the Saracens and then after the Saracens, Normans come in and then they bring in large numbers of Italians from the mainland.

In summary it seems like the Iron Age Sicilians were "Southern Europeans" which is what modern Sicilians are. I mean, who would of Thunk it:bigsmile:


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13395[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #23FF00, align: right"]3.42736050[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.66390502[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #27FF00, align: right"]3.83640457[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13394[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #20FF00, align: right"]3.13761056[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.22142825[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.36891674[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13393[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.66818756[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2DFF00, align: right"]4.43954953[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3DFF00, align: right"]5.93704472[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13392[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1CFF00, align: right"]2.70309082[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1CFF00, align: right"]2.71659714[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #36FF00, align: right"]5.32081761[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #34FF00, align: right"]5.14520165[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #35FF00, align: right"]5.22825975[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #38FF00, align: right"]5.45292582[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #23FF00, align: right"]3.41483528[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #27FF00, align: right"]3.79532607[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2FFF00, align: right"]4.58630570[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.37535183[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #31FF00, align: right"]4.80586101[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #31FF00, align: right"]4.82886115[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13387[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.21269357[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #28FF00, align: right"]3.88584611[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]4.94449188[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1BFF00, align: right"]2.65162215[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #27FF00, align: right"]3.82989556[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2BFF00, align: right"]4.24798776[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13385[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #20FF00, align: right"]3.13220370[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.19020376[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #24FF00, align: right"]3.55412436[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #14FF00, align: right"]1.99669727[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2BFF00, align: right"]4.24089613[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2EFF00, align: right"]4.50702785[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13383[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1DFF00, align: right"]2.79883905[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.21510497[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2AFF00, align: right"]4.12383317[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13382[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #19FF00, align: right"]2.49715839[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.31502640[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.61850798[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13381[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #28FF00, align: right"]3.88704258[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2CFF00, align: right"]4.36221274[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]4.89673361[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #20FF00, align: right"]3.15204695[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #26FF00, align: right"]3.73713794[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2DFF00, align: right"]4.39732873[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2BFF00, align: right"]4.26313265[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]4.91550608[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #33FF00, align: right"]4.99768947[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13378[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #19FF00, align: right"]2.41859463[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.38112407[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #29FF00, align: right"]4.04901223[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1BFF00, align: right"]2.59834563[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.64001374[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2DFF00, align: right"]4.38271605[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #39FF00, align: right"]5.60336506[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3AFF00, align: right"]5.68590362[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #41FF00, align: right"]6.32833311[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #57FF00, align: right"]8.53651568[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5AFF00, align: right"]8.80877404[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5AFF00, align: right"]8.85074008[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #33FF00, align: right"]4.95585512[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3EFF00, align: right"]6.08174317[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #46FF00, align: right"]6.90797365[/TD]
[TD]Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Kuivamaa said:
Agreed. E-V13 exists in every Greek population, including Cypriots that didn’t receive any meaningful slavic migration. It is very plausible that Peloponnesus has it higher than average partly due to arvanite input.
Click to expand...

Going to make a bald prediction. I believe that E-V13 is centered in Central to Northern Greece (Thessaly, Macedonia, Epirus). The people there influenced people around them. South Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians. It's just that we don't have any samples from that area.
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Angela: Correct. RE your post #85 and 86, I think you are dead on. Reitsema et al 2022 (this paper) note that Phoenicians set up trading posts (they were Sea peoples) and the Greeks colonized. It is quite clear from all the historical sources that the Phoenicians and their successors (Carthaginians) used Mercenaries to fight their land wars and protect their trading posts. Regarding the Iron Age Sicilian samples, the Sicani as you note are likely autochthonous . Below are the new Iron Age Sicani Samples from Reitsema et al 2022 compared to all the Bronze Age Sicilian Samples that have been published to date (18 from Fernandes et al 2020, 1 Bronze Age Beaker from Olade et al 2018 and the one from Yu et al 2022). I just listed the closest 3 distances. Interesting that these samples are from the 5th century BC and the Phoenicians first set up trading posts on the Western Coast of Sicily in 9th century BC, yet those Iron Age Sicilians are in close genetic continuity with their Bronze Age Sicilian predecessors. Yes their was genetic input from the Levant (Phoenicians) and North Africa (Carthaginians) but it did not replace nor even change the genetic makeup of Sicily as even today the studies document a 4-4.5% admixture from Levant/North African sources in modern Sicily. This would include the Imperial Roman period, when of course their were Jewish Settlements in Sicily (Saint Pauls Journeys into Eastern Sicily confirm this) and the Saracen period. But again, during the Saracen rule of Sicily, it was a military conquest yes but again their is no evidence of a massive colonization of Sicily. Of course perhaps it was and their was a shift in the genetic profile in Sicily but after the Muslims were expelled and large numbers of Italians from the mainland moved in, it shifted back to what it was in my guess pre-Saracen invasion. I will not that there were 11 civilians from the West Himera Necropolis and I think 4 of them harbored North African ancestry. Here is the quote from the paper

"Itis notable that four of the eight individuals that could be analyzedwith ADMIXTURE carry a small proportion (2.2–3.8%) of agenetic component maximized in Africans that is not found tothe same extent in our other Sicilian individuals but appears inPunic and Levantine individuals (Fig. 2B), and the same individuals are shifted toward Levantine groups on the worldwide PCA"

So 3.8% is not much different statistically than what you find on average today in modern Sicily. For example, Sarno et al 2016 report "A similar, but even more extreme south-north gradient was observed also for the blue component highly representative of Northern African groups that was additionally detected in Middle East and, to a significant lower extent, in Southern Italy (4.6%, mainly in Sicily)."

Now it would be good to get Iron Age data from Sicily from the other areas where the indigenous Sicilians (Elymians in the NW) and Sicels from Central to Eastern Sicily and other parts of Italy from the Iron Age and time series data across up to 1500 AD in all areas. In terms of Sicily, which the paper is about, it seems however Sicilians got to where we are today, it may the case we might have changed a little over time (Everyone has) but the MENA admixture seems relatively constant, yes it might have had some inflection points where there was an increase (Jewish Groups in Sicily during the time of Saint Paul) and MENA influence during the Saracen rule, but it seems likely it came back to a relatively constant level as the Byzantines would have had Sicily after the Fall of Rome before the Saracens and then after the Saracens, Normans come in and then they bring in large numbers of Italians from the mainland.

In summary it seems like the Iron Age Sicilians were "Southern Europeans" which is what modern Sicilians are. I mean, who would of Thunk it:bigsmile:


[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13395[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #23FF00, align: right"]3.42736050[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.66390502[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #27FF00, align: right"]3.83640457[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13394[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #20FF00, align: right"]3.13761056[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.22142825[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.36891674[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13393[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.66818756[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2DFF00, align: right"]4.43954953[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3DFF00, align: right"]5.93704472[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13392[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1CFF00, align: right"]2.70309082[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1CFF00, align: right"]2.71659714[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #36FF00, align: right"]5.32081761[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13391[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #34FF00, align: right"]5.14520165[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #35FF00, align: right"]5.22825975[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #38FF00, align: right"]5.45292582[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13390[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #23FF00, align: right"]3.41483528[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #27FF00, align: right"]3.79532607[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2FFF00, align: right"]4.58630570[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13389[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.37535183[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #31FF00, align: right"]4.80586101[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #31FF00, align: right"]4.82886115[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13387[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.21269357[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #28FF00, align: right"]3.88584611[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]4.94449188[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13386[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1BFF00, align: right"]2.65162215[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #27FF00, align: right"]3.82989556[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2BFF00, align: right"]4.24798776[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13385[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #20FF00, align: right"]3.13220370[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.19020376[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #24FF00, align: right"]3.55412436[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13384[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #14FF00, align: right"]1.99669727[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2BFF00, align: right"]4.24089613[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2EFF00, align: right"]4.50702785[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13383[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1DFF00, align: right"]2.79883905[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #21FF00, align: right"]3.21510497[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2AFF00, align: right"]4.12383317[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13382[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #19FF00, align: right"]2.49715839[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.31502640[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.61850798[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10373_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13381[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #28FF00, align: right"]3.88704258[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2CFF00, align: right"]4.36221274[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]4.89673361[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13380[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #20FF00, align: right"]3.15204695[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #26FF00, align: right"]3.73713794[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2DFF00, align: right"]4.39732873[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3878_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13379[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2BFF00, align: right"]4.26313265[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]4.91550608[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #33FF00, align: right"]4.99768947[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13378[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #19FF00, align: right"]2.41859463[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #22FF00, align: right"]3.38112407[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #29FF00, align: right"]4.04901223[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13377[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1BFF00, align: right"]2.59834563[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #25FF00, align: right"]3.64001374[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2DFF00, align: right"]4.38271605[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I10372_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Polizzello_Sicani_Med:I13376[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #39FF00, align: right"]5.60336506[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3AFF00, align: right"]5.68590362[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #41FF00, align: right"]6.32833311[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med_lc:I13128[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #57FF00, align: right"]8.53651568[/TD]
[TD]Fernades_etal_2020:I3123_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5AFF00, align: right"]8.80877404[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I11442_Sicily_EBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5AFF00, align: right"]8.85074008[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Baucina_MtFalcone_Sicani_Med:I13125[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #33FF00, align: right"]4.95585512[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3876_Sicily_LBA_Marcita[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3EFF00, align: right"]6.08174317[/TD]
[TD]Fernandes_etal_2020:I3125_Sicily_MBA_Buffa_Cave_II[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #46FF00, align: right"]6.90797365[/TD]
[TD]Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

Excellent. These are the kinds of comparisons we need. Yes, there were some changes from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age in Sicily, but they were not significant enough to change the picture of general continuity we see in the Sicani. The whole "Phoenician/Carthaginian thing" has always been a red herring. There just weren't enough of them, and they didn't normally bring their women, so they were not going to cause major changes. The argument supporting that flew in the face of everything we know about them, so there was always an element of dishonesty about it, imo.

We see one change in the process of happening here through the samples from the Greek polis, the civilian inhabitants, but also, I think, through those hoplites who were locals, and that's the effect of the 1st millenium B.C. Greek colonization, which was indeed a folk migration, as I've always maintained, and which was clear from history. That gene flow, although also heavily European farmer like, introduced different elements to the Sicilian gene pool.

As to the influence of the Moors, I think you might find the book "A History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard Chiarelli interesting. It's an exhaustive analysis, and it seems there was indeed settlement by the Moors in Sicily, predominantly in Southern Sicily, where they were given farms, although the Arab elite were in and around Palermo. Parts of Eastern Sicily, including the area around the Nebrodi Mountains were allowed to semi-govern themselves, with administrations still in Greek, so there might have been less genetic influence there.

It's true that later on the Moors were driven east to make their "last stands" there, but I think it is settlements, settlements by folk migrations, which create significant change, and then, of course, most of them were driven out, to North Africa and the rest of the Muslim World. Even the ones sent to Foggia to be used as mercenaries were eventually enslaved or execute. As to the Lombard cities, they were not located near the coastal cities, so my hypothesis has been that the far eastern Sicilians may have changed the least. We'll see what new samples show.

Oh, Messina should of course not be included in any modern comparisons, imo, given that after two devastating earthquakes which flattened the city, it was re-settled by people from other parts of Sicily, but especially by people from Reggio Calabria.

I think more emphasis has to be placed on yDna tracking in all of these papers in order to help confirm hypotheses. For example, if I remember correctly, E-M81, which would be the best lineage to track for Moorish settlement, is indeed highest in Southern Sicily, as are some more North African mtDna lines. Even if the majority of the newcomers are driven out, some will hide or convert, and although the autosomal signature will be diluted, the uniparentals remain.
 
Angela said:
Excellent. These are the kinds of comparisons we need. Yes, there were some changes from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age in Sicily, but they were not significant enough to change the picture of general continuity we see in the Sicani. The whole "Phoenician/Carthaginian thing" has always been a red herring. There just weren't enough of them, and they didn't normally bring their women, so they were not going to cause major changes. The argument supporting that flew in the face of everything we know about them, so there was always an element of dishonesty about it, imo.

We see one change in the process of happening here through the samples from the Greek polis, the civilian inhabitants, but also, I think, through those hoplites who were locals, and that's the effect of the 1st millenium B.C. Greek colonization, which was indeed a folk migration, as I've always maintained, and which was clear from history. That gene flow, although also heavily European farmer like, introduced different elements to the Sicilian gene pool.

As to the influence of the Moors, I think you might find the book "A History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard Chiarelli interesting. It's an exhaustive analysis, and it seems there was indeed settlement by the Moors in Sicily, predominantly in Southern Sicily, where they were given farms, although the Arab elite were in and around Palermo. Parts of Eastern Sicily, including the area around the Nebrodi Mountains were allowed to semi-govern themselves, with administrations still in Greek, so there might have been less genetic influence there.

It's true that later on the Moors were driven east to make their "last stands" there, but I think it is settlements, settlements by folk migrations, which create significant change, and then, of course, most of them were driven out, to North Africa and the rest of the Muslim World. Even the ones sent to Foggia to be used as mercenaries were eventually enslaved or execute. As to the Lombard cities, they were not located near the coastal cities, so my hypothesis has been that the far eastern Sicilians may have changed the least. We'll see what new samples show.

Oh, Messina should of course not be included in any modern comparisons, imo, given that after two devastating earthquakes which flattened the city, it was re-settled by people from other parts of Sicily, but especially by people from Reggio Calabria.

I think more emphasis has to be placed on yDna tracking in all of these papers in order to help confirm hypotheses. For example, if I remember correctly, E-M81, which would be the best lineage to track for Moorish settlement, is indeed highest in Southern Sicily, as are some more North African mtDna lines. Even if the majority of the newcomers are driven out, some will hide or convert, and although the autosomal signature will be diluted, the uniparentals remain.
Click to expand...

Angela: Thanks for the post. I will have to check out that book indicating Southern Sicily is where there was a Muslim settlement during the Saracen period (seems like an interesting book, thanks for the recommendation). The Di Gaetano et al 2009 paper, which is somewhat dated I know, does note that E-M81 (The Classic Amazigh-Berber marker) is in their sample (N=236) 2.12% of Y-DNA lineages overall with 1.64% (West-Sicily) and 2.63% (East-Sicily). But I would think that higher rate in Eastern Sicily is likely Southern Sicily around the province of Ragusa. Sarno et al 2014 "An Ancient Mediterranean Melting Pot: Investigating theUniparental Genetic Structure and Population History ofSicily and Southern Italy" (N=216) found E-M81 at 1.85% of the Y-DNA lineages with a > in East-Sicily with Ragusa which supports what you are saying regarding Southern Sicily. The J1-M267 Haplogroup is about 6% on average in the Sarno samples (Di Gaetano et al 2009 it was 3.52% with > in West-Sicily) with higher incidence in the West of Sicily vs. East consistent with as you stated confirming a presence of Arab elite in the City of Palermo.
 
yes davidski and stuff
still here is a list of some of the samples g25 values
i guess the ones with good coverage made it to his list

Scaled

ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7223,0.118376,0.162485,0.013199,-0.044574,0.038161,-0.021196,-0.00282,0.001385,0.016362,0.047017,0.002273,0.005995,-0.021407,-0.004404,-0.00855,-0.017634,-0.003651,0.004814,0.01081,-0.011506,-0.00574,0.00507,-0.006655,0.001446,0.002515

ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7224,0.125205,0.165531,0.005657,-0.050065,0.024004,-0.018686,-0.00282,-0.004846,0.020657,0.043372,-0.001949,0.009741,-0.024083,-0.005367,-0.00855,0.000928,0.028163,-0.004941,0.000754,0.002251,-0.007612,0.00136,0.003451,0.008555,-0.006107

ITA_Sicily_Himera_409BCE:I7225,0.135449,0.1635,0.008297,-0.065246,0.041854,-0.018686,-0.00094,-0.007384,0.008385,0.051391,0.001949,0.013038,-0.030327,-0.003716,-0.020629,-0.022142,0.004563,0.00038,0.005908,-0.017008,-0.000873,0.005812,-0.002588,-0.003374,0.005029

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7217,0.121791,0.159438,-0.010182,-0.064923,0.03139,-0.026216,-0.00047,-0.008077,0.00634,0.047199,0.007145,0.010191,-0.020218,-0.003578,-0.017779,-0.012198,0.003651,0.000127,0.004525,-0.021385,-0.00836,0.006059,-0.003451,0.018677,0.003353

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7218,0.118376,0.161469,-0.001508,-0.06137,0.025851,-0.032351,0.00235,0.000692,0.008795,0.047746,0.008931,0.006744,-0.011596,-0.011285,-0.019679,0.006895,0.033639,0.001647,0.012318,-0.005503,-0.012603,-0.003586,-0.005669,0.006507,-0.013532

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7219,0.121791,0.168578,-0.001886,-0.068476,0.023697,-0.024821,0.005405,0.000692,0.005727,0.046835,0.002923,0.010341,-0.026759,-0.007707,-0.02253,-0.016176,0.019166,-0.00038,0.008547,0.001626,-0.013351,0.002102,-0.000246,-0.003976,-0.004431

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I7221,0.120652,0.160454,-0.010559,-0.064923,0.016003,-0.029562,-0.00235,-0.005307,-0.003681,0.033896,0.003573,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.003991,-0.014386,-0.009679,0.012517,0.001014,0.003394,-0.001501,-0.010981,0.007666,-0.004807,0.003735,-0.004071

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10945,0.114961,0.15436,-0.011314,-0.050065,0.016926,-0.026216,-0.00376,-0.003231,0.00859,0.039181,-0.000812,0.014387,-0.021556,0.002064,-0.018594,-0.018828,0.01356,-0.002787,0.014581,-0.017633,-0.019341,0.011376,0.001725,0.010965,-0.005269

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10948,0.119514,0.167562,-0.006411,-0.056202,0.031083,-0.022869,-0.00658,0.003923,0.013499,0.048475,0.002761,0.013788,-0.023488,-0.002615,-0.022258,-0.001591,0.006519,-0.002027,0.009176,-0.004627,-0.003743,0.003339,0.004067,0.002048,-0.005149

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_1:I10952,0.113823,0.162485,0,-0.064277,0.032006,-0.018128,-0.011281,-0.008307,0.007158,0.043372,0.00406,0.008542,-0.013379,0.002064,-0.014794,-0.013259,-0.005085,-0.00038,0.001885,-0.011506,-0.003369,0.010263,0.001972,0.004217,-0.003832

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946,0.125205,0.147252,0.02753,-0.000646,0.03693,-0.006414,-0.005405,-0.010153,0.006749,0.03262,0.009419,0.008093,-0.015015,0.006193,-0.015336,-0.016309,-0.005215,-0.002027,0.011564,-0.007879,-0.008485,0.013231,0.00037,-0.002169,0.009101

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950,0.129758,0.142174,0.028661,-0.007429,0.039084,-0.008088,0.005875,0.005077,0.005318,0.031345,0.000487,0.009142,-0.00996,0.004679,-0.019679,-0.004508,0.01682,-0.00076,0.011061,0.002376,-0.008735,0.006554,-0.001109,-0.003253,-0.000958

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10943,0.126344,0.118817,0.07731,0.082042,0.035083,0.029562,0.005405,0.011999,-0.015339,-0.043919,-0.000812,-0.012289,0.016353,0.015276,-0.012215,0.014452,0.025816,-0.005701,-0.009679,0.008004,-0.001248,-0.00643,0.008504,-0.016147,-0.000958

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_3:I10949,0.124067,0.110693,0.081835,0.078489,0.03416,0.031794,0.015276,0.007615,-0.008181,-0.025149,-0.001786,-0.009591,0.009663,0.018579,-0.014658,0.005038,0.006519,0.003294,0.006788,0.01113,-0.001373,-0.010758,0.00456,-0.013616,0.004311

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10944,0.10927,0.048745,0.039221,0.059755,-0.017234,0.01506,-0.001175,-0.000692,-0.023316,-0.029158,-0.006658,-0.001499,-0.003271,-0.012111,0.017508,0.001458,-0.023991,0.00038,0.001383,-0.00025,-0.0141,0.003462,-0.003081,0.003253,-0.001557

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_4:I10947,0.106994,0.044683,0.038843,0.052649,-0.020927,0.025379,-0.00329,-0.000692,-0.021066,-0.02278,-0.009094,-0.003597,-0.003271,-0.025598,0.020358,0.01896,0.009648,-0.002914,0.010559,0.005253,-0.013102,-0.000247,0.002095,0.007109,0.005868

ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_5:I10951,0.111547,0.126941,-0.043369,-0.01615,-0.035083,0.006414,0.00423,-0.004615,-0.065243,-0.036994,0.001299,0.007044,-0.025272,0.003716,0.014794,-0.012331,0.008214,-0.003294,-0.021871,0.011255,0.008485,-0.005441,0.001602,-0.01205,-0.007185

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13376,0.130897,0.165531,0.015839,-0.052003,0.050779,-0.014502,-0.00376,-0.005077,0.020043,0.064694,-0.000812,0.01094,-0.02334,-0.007156,-0.021851,-0.016176,-0.003651,-0.000127,-0.003142,-0.010005,-0.002995,0.007048,-0.00037,-0.003735,0.004431

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13377,0.127482,0.17264,0.011691,-0.065892,0.046162,-0.03012,-0.000235,-0.002077,0.032724,0.066516,0.003573,0.013488,-0.023637,-0.004129,-0.023751,-0.004375,0.015907,0.005701,0.008045,-0.001126,-0.015098,0.006677,-0.001356,0.001807,-0.007065

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13378,0.127482,0.170609,0.012445,-0.056848,0.052933,-0.025379,-0.0047,-0.005769,0.026588,0.065787,0.000974,0.01094,-0.029583,-0.007156,-0.019544,-0.007823,0.012126,-0.001774,0.007668,-0.016758,-0.010981,0.01051,-0.003204,-0.006025,0.001676

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13379,0.12862,0.174671,0.017725,-0.060724,0.044624,-0.020917,-0.00188,-0.000923,0.022907,0.060138,0.003735,0.006444,-0.027056,0.00234,-0.021172,-0.013524,-0.014212,0.012542,0.003771,-0.013506,-0.004617,0.006059,0.002095,-0.004217,-0.004071

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13380,0.126344,0.171624,0.00792,-0.056848,0.042777,-0.024263,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.022089,0.064876,0.002923,0.009142,-0.028543,-0.015138,-0.017372,-0.009812,0.012256,0.001774,0.00905,-0.01038,-0.00262,0.000742,-0.003451,-0.003494,-0.000838

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13381,0.130897,0.167562,0.018856,-0.054587,0.048624,-0.021753,-0.002115,0.004384,0.026793,0.072348,0.002111,0.012289,-0.025124,0.00289,-0.025651,-0.009414,0.011865,0.00076,0.00817,-0.01063,-0.012478,-0.001113,0.000123,-0.009519,-0.00946

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13382,0.125205,0.174671,0.012822,-0.056848,0.047393,-0.024263,-0.001175,0.001615,0.028633,0.051755,0.007145,0.018434,-0.025421,0.006881,-0.019544,-0.015778,-0.009909,0.005068,0.011313,-0.006503,-0.003244,0.002597,-0.010476,-0.0194,0.00455

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13383,0.125205,0.175687,0.014708,-0.054587,0.049855,-0.036535,-0.011045,-0.004384,0.023316,0.05704,0.007957,0.008692,-0.026016,0.006331,-0.017644,-0.010872,0.007041,-0.00152,0.007416,-0.004377,-0.006863,0.000124,0.000863,-0.010483,-0.000479

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13384,0.1161,0.162485,0.010559,-0.061047,0.039392,-0.029284,0.00141,-0.007384,0.026384,0.064694,0.003085,0.007793,-0.018583,-0.006193,-0.030266,-0.007292,0.017602,0.00114,0.006034,-0.015007,-0.010357,0.004451,-0.011955,-0.00494,0.005748

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13385,0.126344,0.1635,0.015462,-0.060724,0.051702,-0.028168,-0.00235,0.000462,0.025565,0.065423,0.008119,0.014987,-0.022448,-0.005505,-0.025651,-0.003713,0.015125,-0.000507,0.006662,-0.009379,-0.012603,0.000618,-0.003574,-0.003012,-0.001676

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13386,0.12862,0.175687,0.016216,-0.057171,0.042777,-0.025379,-0.00282,0.002077,0.028429,0.064147,-0.000325,0.017684,-0.022002,-0.010184,-0.024022,0.000265,0.029988,-0.00038,0.004777,-0.006878,-0.004866,0.002844,-0.003697,-0.008314,0.002155

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13387,0.140002,0.170609,0.019233,-0.045866,0.040931,-0.021475,-0.004465,-0.003,0.026384,0.063965,0.00682,0.015586,-0.021407,-0.003028,-0.020358,-0.002784,0.011865,-0.000507,0.009427,-0.007629,-0.007362,0.000866,-0.003081,-0.012291,0

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13389,0.119514,0.170609,0.015839,-0.056202,0.048624,-0.026216,-0.007285,-0.002308,0.017998,0.065241,0.001137,0.010341,-0.028394,0,-0.020494,-0.015646,-0.004824,0.006968,0.006662,-0.012381,0.002246,0.004575,-0.000863,-0.009399,0.006347

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13390,0.127482,0.170609,0.024136,-0.053941,0.047701,-0.025658,-0.0047,0.001385,0.030883,0.058316,0.000974,0.008093,-0.017988,-0.002477,-0.020358,-0.019093,-0.00339,0.002027,-0.002011,-0.017133,-0.004742,-0.000989,-0.006409,-0.00494,0.00455

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13391,0.125205,0.168578,0.021873,-0.052326,0.041238,-0.025937,-0.003995,-0.003231,0.028838,0.061596,0.006008,0.004196,-0.025867,-0.001927,-0.024973,-0.017767,-0.002347,0.005448,0.00264,-0.02151,-0.007986,0.00136,-0.002835,-0.008796,-0.002754

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13392,0.124067,0.169593,0.01697,-0.051357,0.053241,-0.027331,-0.002115,0.001154,0.02577,0.070343,-0.001461,0.016036,-0.024232,0.001927,-0.021715,-0.022805,0.000782,-0.001774,0.006536,-0.01113,-0.008859,0.001731,-0.003574,-0.006386,-0.003353

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13393,0.121791,0.167562,0.021873,-0.060078,0.045547,-0.027052,-0.007285,-0.000692,0.020043,0.071801,0.013153,0.018134,-0.02661,-0.010322,-0.021172,-0.011005,0.014212,0.000127,0.007165,-0.011631,-0.003119,0.001731,-0.006162,-0.010483,-0.003233

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13394,0.119514,0.168578,0.010182,-0.052649,0.048624,-0.03263,-0.011045,-0.000462,0.040087,0.065969,-0.002598,0.009891,-0.020069,-0.006468,-0.02443,-0.004508,0.015776,0.001647,0.007793,-0.01113,-0.002745,0.010758,-0.003204,-0.004217,-0.001317

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13395,0.124067,0.171624,0.021496,-0.056202,0.046162,-0.019801,0.005875,-0.000231,0.027815,0.058862,-0.002598,0.011989,-0.018137,-0.013212,-0.017372,0.011403,0.026468,0.002027,0.005028,-0.007879,-0.001747,0.000989,-0.003944,-0.008555,-0.003952

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13125,0.114961,0.171624,0.011314,-0.072352,0.037238,-0.027889,-0.007755,-0.014538,0.028838,0.070161,0.000162,0.006294,-0.028097,0.011698,-0.02348,-0.023999,-0.004955,0.002534,0.01257,-0.014007,-0.016845,0.012489,-0.001972,-0.015544,-0.008502

ITA_Sicily_IA:I13128,0.118376,0.153345,0.012445,-0.056202,0.038469,-0.019522,0,0.003231,0.031701,0.066516,0.005034,0.007044,-0.016204,-0.000688,-0.006922,-0.012066,-0.007432,0.00076,0.010182,-0.003126,-0.001872,0.003339,-0.005176,-0.011929,0.003712
 
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