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J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Galaxy Overlord said:
So are you saying that J2b2 and R1b are proto Illyrian and E-V13 is a separate group that combined later?
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he is saying, they are in lands on both sides of the Adriatic sea
 
blevins13 said:
I think this thread has reach its conclusion. J2B2 is indeed (proto-Illyrian), there is no doubt about it.


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Yes, the only question that remains is when the anestors of Cetina got into contact with the Bell Beaker sphere, because both Cetina and Maros being peripheral to the Beaker world, in contact with the Beakers and the Cetina people and later HRV_MBA samples show an increasing level of Bell Beaker autosomal ancestry.

Among the J-L283 samples from Cetina an R-L51 was found as well:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/

So its now just about where the founder effect and overtake of Bell Beaker innovations started, which was known from archaeology. From then on we move from Cetina into Posusje-Dinaric culture and this is already the Proto-Illyrian stage I'd say.

Quite remarkable that the spread of Illyrian, dominated by J-L283, being now proven from Slovenia to Serbia and from Hungary to Albania.
 
Oroku Saki said:
Well, what I got wrong is Cetina. I thought they were different from Dinaric/Posušje culture, in culture they were apparently but not in DNA.

Rudine locality contains some old proto-Cetina samples, so they might even go past 2000 BC (They should).

Say hello to I18746, J-PH1602. Excavated in 1958. Tumulus 19, grave 4.

Rudine-T-19.jpg


Yugoslav anthropologist Mikić: remains of Male, up to 45 years of age. Very robust. Skull is dolichocephalic, high with strong facial relief, supraorbital arches very developed, high and deep nasal root, both jaws massive. Shortly he described it as of "Paleo-Mediterranean" type. I'd like to see his autosomal profile, is he similar to those later samples or..
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Do you have a link to this study that references the above sample? This guy looks a bit like my great grandfather.
 
Oroku Saki said:
Well, what I got wrong is Cetina. I thought they were different from Dinaric/Posušje culture, in culture they were apparently but not in DNA.

Rudine locality contains some old proto-Cetina samples, so they might even go past 2000 BC (They should).

Say hello to I18746, J-PH1602. Excavated in 1958. Tumulus 19, grave 4.

Rudine-T-19.jpg


Yugoslav anthropologist Mikić: remains of Male, up to 45 years of age. Very robust. Skull is dolichocephalic, high with strong facial relief, supraorbital arches very developed, high and deep nasal root, both jaws massive. Shortly he described it as of "Paleo-Mediterranean" type. I'd like to see his autosomal profile, is he similar to those later samples or..
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Great catch! Many samples come from pretty degraded remains which don't give us a lot about their physical type.
 
Oroku Saki said:
Well, what I got wrong is Cetina. I thought they were different from Dinaric/Posušje culture, in culture they were apparently but not in DNA.

Rudine locality contains some old proto-Cetina samples, so they might even go past 2000 BC (They should).

Say hello to I18746, J-PH1602. Excavated in 1958. Tumulus 19, grave 4.

Rudine-T-19.jpg


Yugoslav anthropologist Mikić: remains of Male, up to 45 years of age. Very robust. Skull is dolichocephalic, high with strong facial relief, supraorbital arches very developed, high and deep nasal root, both jaws massive. Shortly he described it as of "Paleo-Mediterranean" type. I'd like to see his autosomal profile, is he similar to those later samples or..
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The first to propose the connection between Cetina and J2b2-L283 was Aspar. Nice catch and analysis.
 
So J2b2-L283 is clearly proto-Albanian. But where is EV-13 ? One sample found in Croatia indicates it spread in Illyria too and a bottle neck effect ocurred.
 
blevins13 said:
I think this thread has reach its conclusion. J2B2 is indeed (proto-Illyrian), there is no doubt about it.


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I am not deeply involved in this thread todate, but I think you think (!) : a lot of Y-J2b2, some of its subclades (downstream L283), and not ALL Y-J2b? At first J2b* would have been a relatively late introgression from Anatolia. And are we sure that around LBA any ethnic group in Balkans would be dominated by only an unique Y-haplo? Sure some haplos can dominate an ethnic landscape there but I don't see that the previous clannic groups of CA/EBA of northern Europe had been correspondance in the post-tells cultures of southern Europe. Just a thought, I can mistake. In place of a listing of close Y-haplo's it would be great to have all the haplo's involved in the cultural groups of Balkans (of the same period). I had not access to the more recent discoveries in matter of Y-haplo's.
 
MOESAN said:
I am not deeply involved in this thread todate, but I think you think (!) : a lot of Y-J2b2, some of its subclades (downstream L283), and not ALL Y-J2b? At first J2b* would have been a relatively late introgression from Anatolia. And are we sure that around LBA any ethnic group in Balkans would be dominated by only an unique Y-haplo? Sure some haplos can dominate an ethnic landscape there but I don't see that the previous clannic groups of CA/EBA of northern Europe had been correspondance in the post-tells cultures of southern Europe. Just a thought, I can mistake. In place of a listing of close Y-haplo's it would be great to have all the haplo's involved in the cultural groups of Balkans (of the same period). I had not access to the more recent discoveries in matter of Y-haplo's.
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[FONT=&quot]The thread's topic is about J2b-L283 and that is what blevins meant, not a macro haplogroup designation. All of what you are writing does not relate to J2b-L283 nor the data from scientific papers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Before writing such comments and not having a clue about what the thread's topic is nor bothering to read the nomenclature of the haplogroup being discussed it would be just great not to post such baseless theories, thank you.[/FONT]
 
Trojet said:
From the newly published "The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe" we have the following J2b-L283 samples:


Hopefully we can get deeper classification for some of the samples once the BAM files are out, especially the MBA sample (~1800 BCE) from Shkrel Albania, but not very hopeful as the coverage is not ideal. Will add them to the J2b-L283 aDNA map then.

Main takes: Cetina sites in Croatia seem to be dominated by J-Y15058>Z38240, where we have the oldest J-PH1602 which is even older than its estimated TMRCA. All MLBA samples from Velika Gruda, Montenegro seem to be under J-Z1297, one of them more specifically J-Y21878 which has also appeared in an "early Iapygian" sample from Apulia, Italy. It shows us that at least some Iapygian tribes have migrated from around modern Montenegro, as expected.
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It would be really handy if you placed the samples in date order
 
torzio said:
It would be really handy if you placed the samples in date order
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I see. I think you don't like it the way posted because the samples from Albania are listed first :embarassed:

Well, if you look at the Supplementary materials Data S1 from the paper, the samples are arranged based on country, with Albania starting first, and so on, just as I listed them. So you should complain to Lazaridis et al. too :lol2:
 
Trojet said:
I see. I think you don't like it the way posted because the samples from Albania are listed first :embarassed:
Well, if you look at the Supplementary materials Data S1 from the paper, the samples are arranged based on country, with Albania starting first, and so on, just as I listed them. So you should complain to Lazaridis et al. too :lol2:
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Never noticed who was first or last...just interested in date order

proving what I said many years ago, that Illyrians are Northern Balkan people and moved south over time, most likely pushed south by the encroaching celts from north of the Danube river central europe

I do not know why you are so upset because your nationalistic theories are shot ..................remember DNA has no national border , it only have geographical origins
 
torzio said:
I do not know why you are so upset because your nationalistic theories are shot ..................remember DNA has no national border , it only have geographical origins
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What "nationalistic theories of mine are shot"? Just because I listed the samples from Albania first, which were based on alphabetical order, like the supplementary sheet from the paper.

Come on Torzio/Sile/Vettor. You can do better than that :lol2:
 
If anything these samples have just proved what I have been saying all along. Even the Albanian autosomal DNA is at least partially Italian like like Italian_Veneto, Tuscany, Lazio etc , shows this autosomal DNA was never entirely lost. And among these samples there are individuals found that cluster like Albanian, Greek etc. Most likely from absorbing CHG, Levant, Baltic or something else
 
Trojet said:
What "nationalistic theories of mine are shot"? Just because I listed the samples from Albania first, which were based on alphabetical order, like the supplementary sheet from the paper.
Come on Torzio/Sile/Vettor. You can do better than that :lol2:
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what are you talking about ?...............are you stressed that I use different names for different sites? ..............you missed a few of my ID's as well,

you need to accept that the true Albanians belong to the ancient Dardanians ..........a land locked people and not a coastal people like illyrians, Italians and Greeks who where all in the Adriatic sea in iron-age times ...............
 
torzio said:
what are you talking about ?...............are you stressed that I use different names for different sites? ..............you missed a few of my ID's as well,

you need to accept that the true Albanians belong to the ancient Dardanians ..........a land locked people and not a coastal people like illyrians, Italians and Greeks who where all in the Adriatic sea in iron-age times ...............
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Why not to the ancient Albanians?
How you rule out this possibility?


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blevins13 said:
Why not to the ancient Albanians?
How you rule out this possibility?


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because all the major albanian cities where created by corinthian greeks from 730BC

The lands where ruled by macedonian and epirote tribes .............until the romans took it prior to their war against hannibal

The early roman -illyrian wars where in modern Montenegro

The Taulantii originated in modern Montenegro and where pushed into modern Albania , by other illyrian tribes moving south from the north ..............and the eel people of lake Ohrid, came via Budva Montenegro no earlier than 580BC......is their anyone else?

the 3 main Dardanian tribes is where the proto-albanian originate .............their "cousins" are the Paeonians
 
torzio said:
because all the major albanian cities where created by corinthian greeks from 730BC

The lands where ruled by macedonian and epirote tribes .............until the romans took it prior to their war against hannibal

The early roman -illyrian wars where in modern Montenegro

The Taulantii originated in modern Montenegro and where pushed into modern Albania , by other illyrian tribes moving south from the north ..............and the eel people of lake Ohrid, came via Budva Montenegro no earlier than 580BC......is their anyone else?

the 3 main Dardanian tribes is where the proto-albanian originate .............their "cousins" are the Paeonians
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So again how you rule out ancient Albanians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi



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torzio said:
Isn't Albanoi first recorded around 150AD ...............why are you presenting me AD info .................my reference is iron-age BC
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It does not matter, how you rule them out?


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Hawk said:
The first to propose the connection between Cetina and J2b2-L283 was Aspar. Nice catch and analysis.
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Perhaps a bit of memory problem on your part. He is the one that fearsomely opposed anyone who claimed that Cetina may have carried L283. He believed Posusje and Cetina were two different cultures that never mixed like water and oil, while Posusje being L283 and Cetina V13 ;)
 
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