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Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Er_Monnezza: Thanks for the information on the Greeks. I took a look at the paper but I have not been able to get the Supplements yet. So 24 new Myceneans with the 4 from the Lazaridis et al 2017 paper gives us 28 Myceneans. Classical statistics suggest an N=30 should result in the distribution converging to a normal distribution so we should be able to get a much clear picture on the Myceneans.
 
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Some very initial thoughts (open to criticism and revision) on how I see things so far in relation to Greeks:

1) Eastern Imperial Romans, the direct progenitors of the Byzantines, being heavily Anatolian: no surprises here, I don't think it holds to dispute that the Byzantine Empire was largely (if not entirely during some of its periods) a Greco-Anatolian historical project/entity, Mithridates Eupator VI of Pontus having an honorary mention as partly responsible!

2) R-L584>R-19434>R-R12332 found in a lot of Urartian samples leaves little to imagination? As such, modern Greeks, and especially Pontics, with L584 are probably Byzantine or Hellenistic lineages of Armenian or other South Caucasian/Iranic (Medes) origin. Again, no big surprises either given the historical relation of the Greek world with the South Caucasian peoples.

3) This is the point that I am certain I am going to get a lot of flak for, but as I said in the opening sentence, I am still trying to connect the dots. From what I gathered from the little I spent on the E-V13 stuff and the relative discussion, this seems to be a Thracian related hg and a Medieval bloomer in Greece, no presence whatsoever in the ancient Greek samples? If so, then chroniclers like Chacocondyles are vindicated when they wrote about the mass medieval migrations of the Vrachs/Vlachs in Epirus, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, referring to them as a nation of Dacians, "the relatives of the Triballi and Moesians, the Illyrians and the Croats, the Polanians and the Sarmatians (Chalcondyles, 1556)". Given how successful these lineages are in modern Greece, Vlachs seem to play a pivotal role in the formation of the modern Greek ethnos, something that is corroborated by ethnography and history.

Just my initial 2 cents. So far, Byzantine and Ottoman historiographers are having the last laugh.
 
eupator said:
Some very initial thoughts (open to criticism and revision) on how I see things so far in relation to Greeks:

1) Eastern Imperial Romans, the direct progenitors of the Byzantines, being heavily Anatolian: no surprises here, I don't think it holds to dispute that the Byzantine Empire was largely (if not entirely during some of its periods) a Greco-Anatolian historical project/entity, Mithridates Eupator VI of Pontus having an honorary mention as partly responsible!

2) R-L584>R-19434>R-R12332 found in a lot of Urartian samples leaves little to imagination? As such, modern Greeks, and especially Pontics, with L584 are probably Byzantine or Hellenistic lineages of Armenian or other South Caucasian/Iranic (Medes) origin. Again, no big surprises either given the historical relation of the Greek world with the South Caucasian peoples.

3) This is the point that I am certain I am going to get a lot of flak for, but as I said in the opening sentence, I am still trying to connect the dots. From what I gathered from the little I spent on the E-V13 stuff and the relative discussion, this seems to be a Thracian related hg and a Medieval bloomer in Greece, no presence whatsoever in the ancient Greek samples? If so, then chroniclers like Chacocondyles are vindicated when they wrote about the mass medieval migrations of the Vrachs/Vlachs in Epirus, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, referring to them as a nation of Dacians, "the relatives of the Triballi and Moesians, the Illyrians and the Croats, the Polanians and the Sarmatians (Chalcondyles, 1556)". Given how successful these lineages are in modern Greece, Vlachs seem to play a pivotal role in the formation of the modern Greek ethnos, something that is corroborated by ethnography and history.

Just my initial 2 cents. So far, Byzantine and Ottoman historiographers are having the last laugh.
Click to expand...

I'm going to go ahead and say (3) is completely wrong. Aromanians have relatively low levels of EV-13. The most dominant haplogroup is J.
 
enter_tain said:
I'm going to go ahead and say (3) is completely wrong. Aromanians have relatively low levels of EV-13. The most dominant haplogroup is J.
Click to expand...

Sure, can you link the source with the numbers I am very interested. Chalcocondyles naming Thracians (Dacians) as Vlachs seems a relevant point, no?
 
Poor understanding of history and ethnicity

blevins13 said:
I am not referring to all R1b, I am referring to this particular line Paternal Y-DNA: R1b- Z2705, you can look it up in y-full. It expanded in the last 1500 years somewhere in the western Balkans and some ended up in Morea. The question is not why is Albanian but when was Albanian and when become Greek.
The Albanian core male lines are very distinct because they come from a very small group of people, very easy to trace.

Do you understand now?!!!!
Why Idiocy Leo?!!! Isn’t this the way to track your ancestors?

Show as a better way Leo do not leave us in the Dark?
Click to expand...

Ydna is irrelevant to ethnicities, even in Albania as in most places you have a diversity of lineages. Balkan populations were always both structured genetically and interacted with each other, to claim that "Y chromosome=ethnicity" even betrays an ignorance of what the Y chromosome is or does. Of course, there were movements from southern Albania to parts of Greece in the 1300s and abouts, however Greece just like Albania (to use simplistic terms so you can understand it) always have assimilated people from other regions of the Balkans, and also to some extent Anatolia. Many Arvanites fought for the Greek cause in 1821, so it's clear they identified as a certain ethnicity.
By your logic, any clade Mycenean samples have or will turn to have in the future automatically makes anyone north of Greece who has it Greek. It's obviously quite ridiculous.

Furthermore, do consider that most E1b diversity in the ancient (IA at least) was in modern-day Bulgaria, not Albania yet E-V13 is a very common haplogroup among Albanians today, clearly distinct from your R1b so at what point does X haplogroup belong to one ethnicity or the other?


On another note, about Illyrians and Macedonians and Thracians, if anyone reads ancient history we can quite clearly see Illyrians and Thracians being assimilated into ancient Greek culture, so did Anatolian peoples like Carians in Anatolia, in fact even the mother of the Athenian statesman Themistocles was likely of Thracian descent. Kimon is also supposed to descent from a Thracian king. The new paper even showed Myceneans as varying in Steppe ancestry so it's clear that cultural affiliation did not always closely follow genetics, even though most ancient Greeks likely had a Mycenean baseline of low Steppe, which would have been higher up north.
 
Where exactly are the Macedonian samples from? I saw that there are several and only one has a Mycenean like profile (so far).
 
eupator said:
Some very initial thoughts (open to criticism and revision) on how I see things so far in relation to Greeks:

1) Eastern Imperial Romans, the direct progenitors of the Byzantines, being heavily Anatolian: no surprises here, I don't think it holds to dispute that the Byzantine Empire was largely (if not entirely during some of its periods) a Greco-Anatolian historical project/entity, Mithridates Eupator VI of Pontus having an honorary mention as partly responsible!

2) R-L584>R-19434>R-R12332 found in a lot of Urartian samples leaves little to imagination? As such, modern Greeks, and especially Pontics, with L584 are probably Byzantine or Hellenistic lineages of Armenian or other South Caucasian/Iranic (Medes) origin. Again, no big surprises either given the historical relation of the Greek world with the South Caucasian peoples.

3) This is the point that I am certain I am going to get a lot of flak for, but as I said in the opening sentence, I am still trying to connect the dots. From what I gathered from the little I spent on the E-V13 stuff and the relative discussion, this seems to be a Thracian related hg and a Medieval bloomer in Greece, no presence whatsoever in the ancient Greek samples? If so, then chroniclers like Chacocondyles are vindicated when they wrote about the mass medieval migrations of the Vrachs/Vlachs in Epirus, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, referring to them as a nation of Dacians, "the relatives of the Triballi and Moesians, the Illyrians and the Croats, the Polanians and the Sarmatians (Chalcondyles, 1556)". Given how successful these lineages are in modern Greece, Vlachs seem to play a pivotal role in the formation of the modern Greek ethnos, something that is corroborated by ethnography and history.

Just my initial 2 cents. So far, Byzantine and Ottoman historiographers are having the last laugh.
Click to expand...

Except of course Pontic clades not being majorly represented among mainland modern Greeks and E-V13 been found across much of West Asia, including areas of ancient Greek colonization but not of strong Byzantine presence (such as the Levant and parts of the West Med)

We also see it in droves in Iron Age and ancient Bulgaria, hard to think that it only arrived in northern Greece in the 1500s
 
The R1b in Kalymnos also seemed very Western and diverse. I assumed it was Italian/Venetian but now it seems more like Iron Age Greek.
Either it could a coincidence because the estimation was done based on a non academic project.
 
Most of the Macedonian IA samples are from the North (Lake Ohrid) so how would they connect to Classical era Macedonians in the South (Pella,Pydna, Methoni). Don't know much about Macedon prior to 600 BC. I realize Macedon (during Classical pd) extended up to Illyrian border but Lake Ohrid would have been within the vicinity of Classical era Thracian Kingdom which extended pretty far West but what about prior to that during the Iron Age?
 
There seem to be as much as nearly G2a as J2a in those samples. I always assumed that J2a would dominate in Greece as much as R1b does in Italy and J2b in Illyria. The sample numbers is still a bit low.

Let me check the genetic profile of those samples. Could be sample bias.
 
Idontknowwhatimdoing said:
I was trying to isolate mainly their ancient Greek admix. You cannot use both ancient Slavic and Balkan samples together to model ancient Greek ancestry. It simply doesnt work. I explained why many times why.

When you use Iron age balkan and and Medieval slavic or modern slavic samples to model Greeks sometimes it gives them just balkan instead of ancient Greek and other times it inflates the Slavic and gives no Balkan etc. It causes weird overfits. Even on qpAdm it causes high std errors so i need to use a proxy mixed between the 2.
Modern samples are not a problem if they have the appropriate admixture.

If i just use ancient samples on qpAdm to model ancient Greek ancestry then modern Greeks score 10% Mycenean since they require a proxy with higher CHG and Iran N than Anatolia BA. So all they get is Slavic + Anatolia BA + very little Mycenean. So if you keep insisting not to use modern samples that is what happens.

I have no choice but to use Armenians as a general West Asian Anatolia/Caucasus proxy because they are kinda mixed with Anatolia/Caucasus/Mesolotamia and Serbian for Iron age Balkan and Medieval Slavic.
Click to expand...

I am sorry but just because the model messes up when you just use Mycenean+Slavic that does not mean that your current model is correct. Other scientists have made it work, why don't you ask them how they did it. Tell them that when you input their data into qpadmin you don't get the same results. Maybe they did something wrong or maybe you did.
 
SandbagsIA said:
Except of course Pontic clades not being majorly represented among mainland modern Greeks and E-V13 been found across much of West Asia, including areas of ancient Greek colonization but not of strong Byzantine presence (such as the Levant and parts of the West Med)

We also see it in droves in Iron Age and ancient Bulgaria, hard to think that it only arrived in northern Greece in the 1500s
Click to expand...

1) Pontic clades, what? :thinking:

2) The Vlach migrations are attested as early as the 10th and the 12th century in connection to Bulgarian presence also, not the 15th as you erroneously write.

3) If E-V13 is primarly connected to Daco-Thracians, it makes sense that it would have expanded into Asia Minor also as early as antiquity, however that doesn't make it ancient Greek. My commentary had more to do with the medieval bloom of the grouping that would associate it better with Vlachs than Thracians of antiquity, but of course the latter cannot be excluded. I am perplexed, are Thracians considered to be ancient Greeks now? Just so I can understand where certain commentary stems from.

I see Greek posters scrambling to damage control in connection to Macedonian and Thracian findings. Calm down, guys, it's just spitballin' at this stage.
 
bigsnake49 said:
I am sorry but just because the model messes up when you just use Mycenean+Slavic that does not mean that your current model is correct. Other scientists have made it work, why don't you ask them how they did it. Tell them that when you input their data into qpadmin you don't get the same results. Maybe they did something wrong or maybe you did.
Click to expand...

I am not talking about Mycenaean + Slavic, obviously such a model is completely false, Greeks are not just Mycenaean + Slavic but they also Balkan admix. I said models with Mycenaean + Slavic + Balkan don't work on both G25 because it causes random overfit shifts and also on qpAdm causes high STD errors. Also Anatolian/Caucasus related proxies are a must.

Also what other scientists? Their Mycenaean/empuries + Slavic models? Obviously unrealistic. Greeks also require an Anatolian/Caucasus proxy at least and still the model wouldn't be complete without estimating the Balkan ancestry too.
 
Er Monnezza said:
Greek samples from the new Southern Arc paper


[TD="class: xl64"]Sample[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Date[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 380"]Analysis_Label[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 423"]Locality[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 126"]Country[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 86"]Lat.[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 86"]Long.[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 63"]Coverage[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 118"]Y-DNA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, width: 110"]mtDNA[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I14916[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1818[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Crete, Zakros, Karaviadaina[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]35,085833[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]26,247778[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]13,17%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]H[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I6420[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1547[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Fthiotis, Lokris, Proskynas[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,609[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]23,167[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,55%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]..[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I15582[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1516[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,960919[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]23,939801[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]25,55%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]T2c1+146[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13519[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1480[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,12%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]F[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]..[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I14872[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1475[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,960919[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]23,939801[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,32%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]HV[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I15571[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1467[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,960919[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]23,939801[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]43,29%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]HV0a[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I16709[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1419[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Attica, Kolikrepi-Spata[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,960919[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]23,939801[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]15,29%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J-Y14434[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]H5[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13516[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1385[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]6,81%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J1c1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13510[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1328[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]7,67%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]G-P287[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]H7[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13517[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1328[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]25,65%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]G-Z6494[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]..[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I19366[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1328[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]50,11%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J1c+16261[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13578[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1312[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]12,52%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]K1a2[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13428[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1293[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]6,22%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]G-L30[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]H2[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13579[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1266[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]18,01%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J-Y14434[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]W1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13577[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1250[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]24,67%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]G-Z7016[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]T2c1d1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13536[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1250[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]0,46%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]..[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13531[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1250[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,23%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]U3b[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13433[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1250[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,61%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]U3b1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13580[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1219[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,81%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]G-P287[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]K2b[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13514[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1215[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]76,28%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]K1c1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13513[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1215[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_BA_Mycenaean_lc[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]0,47%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (sex unknown)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]..[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13532[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1193[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,36%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]U3b1b[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13518[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1135[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]81,11%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]R-PF7563[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]N1a1a1a3[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I13506[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1135[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]20,12%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]R-M269[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]..[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I19364[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1135[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]12,16%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]R-M269[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]X[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I19368[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-1010[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Pylos, Palace of Nestor[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]37,026797[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]21,694586[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]10,73%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]n/a (female)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]U8b1a[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I17959[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-650[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Kastrouli_Anc[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,35%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J1c[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I17960[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-650[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Anc_lc[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]0,63%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]..[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]J1[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I17962[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]-644[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Kastrouli_Anc[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Kastrouli (Desfina, Phokis, near Delphi)[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,399083[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]22,575[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]41,33%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]T-S27463[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]U8b1b[/TD]

[TD="class: xl64"]I7833[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]340[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]GRC_Marathon_Rom[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Vranas Marathon[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]Greece[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]38,122207[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64, align: right"]23,946392[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]80,92%[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]T-CTS3767[/TD]
[TD="class: xl64"]H[/TD]
Click to expand...

Well they are mostly Mycenaean samples. No samples from later eras? No samples from different Greek tribes? So the amateur speculation continues for another 10 years?
 
matadworf said:
Most of the Macedonian IA samples are from the North (Lake Ohrid) so how would they connect to Classical era Macedonians in the South (Pella,Pydna, Methoni). Don't know much about Macedon prior to 600 BC. I realize Macedon (during Classical pd) extended up to Illyrian border but Lake Ohrid would have been within the vicinity of Classical era Thracian Kingdom which extended pretty far West but what about prior to that during the Iron Age?
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Macedonians of classical antiquity were a pretty small tribe. Intermarriage with (remember Alexander the Great's father had 8 wives) and conquest of neighboring areas expanded their holdings tremendously. It would be nice to see some samples from their original domain and hopefully not of royal blood (because of intermarriage).
 
I am going to try to break down my original thought about Thracian E-V13 because my wording might have been too abstract.

If E-V13 is a Thracian, and thus Dacian, marker then its great presence in modern Greek demographics has to do with the fact that the former have had great success in expanding over peninsular Greece, Vlachs being named as Dacians explicitly in historical accords, and also providing a good explanation for the big chunk of what is referred as "Paleo-Balkanic" admixture.

Modern Greeks look to be as much Balkanic (Thracian or related), or at least in the ballpark, as the qpadm models suggested by poster idontknowhatiamdoing.
 
Look: Macedonians, Thessalians and Epirotes are into in Aegean Cluster. They could've had a bit more steppe than Ancient Peloponnesians in direction of (closer to) Sicilians but that is it. In the leaked PCA we had weeks or months ago this new Aegean Cluster overlaps the old one from 2017.
ANPOqia.png


Also most Anatolian Greek polises seem to be from Hellenistic era. I do not doubt that Ionians of Anatolia had Carian admixture but after the Alexander expansions many of those cities became major ports with new waves of Anatolians in there. Some were even abandoned during the Persian expansions. This is not the best representation I could think of. They should've left this topic for an other time.
 
We still don't have enough samples for different eras from Greece proper to definitely say anything except the Mycenaean era and the Mycenaean area and the Kastrouli area. The rest of eras and areas will be shrouded in darkness.
 
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