Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[kl1ki]

Sak Faslia, this one is most typical for Rugove it looks like.

This one is similar to what my great grandfather wore.

Of course the infamous photo of some Kelmendi tribesmen in Northern Albania.

Nik Lek Pepa also Kelmendi

Seems like the Shalle was widely used in this era; Also in Peshter (Sandzak) it was used commonly too.

Also, notice how the plis seems to have been a bit smaller in general, or its either that there wasn't enough material to make it larger.

 

[kl1ki]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Orientalis...ja_jovanović_tahir_pasha_and_the_piperi_clan/

Apparently this depicts Piperi tribesmen. The Shalle in question here is black

 

[torzio]

And what does that has to do with Liburni?

Just check their material culture, they were Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age continuation en masse, used the same burial rite with tumuli as other Illyrians and just recently Croatian archeologists discovered cremation graves with urns as well indicating some LBA/EIA Urnfield influence.

it is in the previous posts attachment...........it mentions amazons and liburnians.....read it

 

[Archetype0ne]

Am not sure. One thing I noticed when I was younger, older folks would tie 'shami' around their plis when doing activities so it would not fall off. And it makes a lot of sense in that regard, if you're running, fighting etc. you don't want your cap to fall off. Maybe 'shalle' served similar purpose.

Also, from what I know within my family, some of them that used to sport one in day to day life, it is dishonor for the plis not to be clean white, as in dirty. So yeah, it might serve some symbolic function and honorific purpose.

 

[Morina]

I have taken a look at this Matzingers book and he basically argues based on some developments of names or words, which could of easily changed, and that were passed down which ended in developing from Latin 'un' 'um' to 'ul' 'ur' or something which developed different in Albanian such as 'li' 'ri' but these words actually developed the same in the Romanian/Aromanian language such as 'Surdul' in Romanian which means 'The Deaf' or Romanian 'Barbatul' which means 'The Man' , in Albanian 'Burri' , in Albanian it developed different 'ri' .

This certainly does not mean Illyrian is not a predecessor of Albanian.

His argument about Messapian not being Illyrian is also not convincing.

 

[mount123]

No I didn't, and you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension... wonder why.

The quote you linked yourself says:


~7,000 years ago, the ancestors of the 3 main Albanian paternal groups had not yet met, they were in 3 different places.

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On the picture you highlight the Middle East and write J2b-L283 and bold Sumerian underneath what your embarrassing intention behind it is, one can imagine[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]We only know that J2b-L283 split 9700 ybp from the J-Z2432 branch, nothing more. Only J2b-M12 lived or more likely expanded (not even exactly in that region) ~16000 years ago.
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[mount123]

There are no Berisha in Rugove to my recollection. Majority are Kelmend that trace their ancestry to Malesi e Madhe, with few families that identify as Shale and some Shkrel. They didn’t bring their Qefin thing from Malesi e Madhe, they adopted it in Rugove after they converted post 16th century.

What recollection? There are tons of Berisha descendants in Rugove but of course also a lot of Kelmendi.

 

[kl1ki]

Mount, Broder is more than likely not right here; My grandmother from Rugove is also Kelmend paternally

You had Shkrel families in Rugove, many of which fled to Sandzak.

Tbh, I've never really heard of Berisha in Rugove, possible but unlikely.

 

[mount123]

I have taken a look at this Matzingers book and he basically argues based on some developments of names or words, which could of easily changed, and that were passed down which ended in developing from Latin 'un' 'um' to 'ul' 'ur' or something which developed different in Albanian such as 'li' 'ri' but these words actually developed the same in the Romanian/Aromanian language such as 'Surdul' in Romanian which means 'The Deaf' or Romanian 'Barbatul' which means 'The Man' , in Albanian 'Burri' , in Albanian it developed different 'ri' .

This certainly does not mean Illyrian is not a predecessor of Albanian.

His argument about Messapian not being Illyrian is also not convincing.

He has no arguments. Illyrian is virtually non-existent, there are not even reconstructed sentences to say whether Albanian descended from it or not.


But there are many names of Illyrian leaders, for example Bardyl, which is obviously also represented in Albanian, as Bardh: white and yll: star.


Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe and not Thracian like.

 

[mount123]

Mount, Broder is more than likely not right here; My grandmother from Rugove is also Kelmend paternally

You had Shkrel families in Rugove, many of which fled to Sandzak.

Tbh, I've never really heard of Berisha in Rugove, possible but unlikely.

Well there are a lot of Berisha there. What's up with this Albania-Centrism?

These guys were also claiming that most Krasniqi live in North Albania or that it is its source which is utter non sense. Only subclade of Krasniqi in Albania is Curri all other subclades like Strofci, Graja, Bojku etc. (myself included) live in Rrafshi Prishtines, Kosovo. Or completely neglecting the major J2b-L283 tribe, Kastrati, who dominate Dardha aka Komuna e Kamenices, Kosovo.

They were also claiming Mirdita to be a "J2b-L283" hotspot which is ABSOLUTELY NOT true. Some micro-tribes like Selita, Spaci won't change the genetic make up there. There is a ton of E1b-V13>CTS9320>Z38456>BY4465>Y97307 aka Dibrri and E1b-V13>CTS9320>BY20093>Y84585 not to forget R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705 aka Fan.

 

[kl1ki]

Well there are a lot of Berisha there. What's up with this Albania-Centrism?

These guys were also claiming that most Krasniqi live in North Albania or that it is its source which is utter non sense. Only subclade of Krasniqi in Albania is Curri all other subclades like Strofci, Graja, Bojku etc. (myself included) live in Rrafshi Prishtines, Kosovo. Or completely neglecting the major J2b-L283 tribe, Kastrati, who dominate Dardha aka Komuna e Kamenices, Kosovo.

They were also claiming Mirdita to be a "J2b-L283" hotspot which is ABSOLUTELY NOT true. Some micro-tribes like Selita, Spaci won't change the genetic make up there. There is a ton of E1b-V13>CTS9320>Z38456>BY4465>Y97307 aka Dibrri and E1b-V13>CTS9320>BY20093>Y84585 not to forget R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705 aka Fan.

If you could provide some evidence to shed some light on Berisha in Rugove; If you are in Kosove, maybe you yourself could buy Mark Krasniqi's book & see what it says.

 

[enter_tain]

Well there are a lot of Berisha there. What's up with this Albania-Centrism?

These guys were also claiming that most Krasniqi live in North Albania or that it is its source which is utter non sense. Only subclade of Krasniqi in Albania is Curri all other subclades like Strofci, Graja, Bojku etc. (myself included) live in Rrafshi Prishtines, Kosovo. Or completely neglecting the major J2b-L283 tribe, Kastrati, who dominate Dardha aka Komuna e Kamenices, Kosovo.

They were also claiming Mirdita to be a "J2b-L283" hotspot which is ABSOLUTELY NOT true. Some micro-tribes like Selita, Spaci won't change the genetic make up there. There is a ton of E1b-V13>CTS9320>Z38456>BY4465>Y97307 aka Dibrri and E1b-V13>CTS9320>BY20093>Y84585 not to forget R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705 aka Fan.

Northern Albania is to Albanians what Rome is to Italians. Most Albanians trace their ancestry there, even the ones in the south. The Albanoi were situated right north of the Jirecek line. I'm from the south so it's not like I'm trying to be biased about this.

Forget genetics for a second, but all the evidence points to this. Geg is the more conservative dialect, and it's the dialect spoken in Kosovo as well, meaning there was a recent migration there.

 

[enter_tain]

Ok then, here are some ancient historians that clearly said Dardani of Balkans and Dardanoi of Troy were related:

Yeah I'm talking about contemporary sources, not foundation myths.

All foundation myths are X is son of Zeus, Y is the daughter of Aphrodite, etc... Illyrus was 1 guy according to Greek mythology that was brothers with Celtus and Gallus.

 

[broder]

What recollection? There are tons of Berisha descendants in Rugove but of course also a lot of Kelmendi.

I have read in the past multiple times Mark Krasniqi’s ethnographic book ‘Vendbanimet e Rugoves’ and Mirko Bajraktarovic’s ‘Rugova’ and I didn’t even see one Berisha family there in all of the villages of Rugove. As I said, there are only few Shkreli, Shala and Kastrati families. Vast majority are Kelmend; Muriq, Lajq, Nikc, Boge, Vukel and Selce.

 

[kl1ki]

Broder, please PM me if you have it digitally scanned, I'm interested in reading them.

 

[Aspurg]

He has no arguments. Illyrian is virtually non-existent, there are not even reconstructed sentences to say whether Albanian descended from it or not.

Albanian has some Illyrian influence and some stark differences as well with the Illyrian. Illyrian influence seems lexical. Similarly how English has strong French influence but it is not a Latin language.

But there are many names of Illyrian leaders, for example Bardyl, which is obviously also represented in Albanian, as Bardh: white and yll: star.

In Antiquity Bardylis in Albanian would have sounded as Bardzylis (Barxilys in Albanian), would have been likely written as Barzylis, surely not Bardylis..

In this instance Albanian shows more relation to Messapian, in Messapian "Barzidihi/Barzides" was attested as a surname.

Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe and not Thracian like.

They had an Illyrian elite which arrived there in 5th century BC, but they were not of Illyrian origin for the most part. Politically they were Illyrian, but various authors ascribed them existence of other peoples, as attested by archeological material, and reports of slavery among Dardanians which was ethnically based per some authors (Illyrians enslaving the locals). Also Dardanii of Troy who are the pre-Illyrian population of Dardania are an older group of people clearly unrelated to the Illyrians.

 

[mount123]

Albanian has some Illyrian influence and some stark differences as well with the Illyrian. Illyrian influence seems lexical. Similarly how English has strong French influence but it is not a Latin language.



In Antiquity Bardylis in Albanian would have sounded as Bardzylis (Barxilys in Albanian), would have been likely written as Barzylis, surelynot Bardylis..

In this instance Albanian shows more relation to Messapian, in Messapian "Barzidihi/Barzides" was attested as a surname.



They had an Illyrian elite which arrived there in 5th century BC, but they were not of Illyrian origin for the most part. Politically they were Illyrian, but various authors ascribed them existence of other peoples, as attested by archeological material, and reports of slavery among Dardanians which was ethnically based per some authors (Illyrians enslaving the locals). Also Dardanii of Troy who are the pre-Illyrian population of Dardania are an older group of people clearly unrelated to the Illyrians.

I am from Central Kosovo Prishtina Valley we also call our "dialect" Guha Dardhes (our region is known for its pear trees dardha cough dardania? cough which is, I want to add, very much different from North Albanian dialects who use that weird english sounding r. Here we roll our r and extremely roll our rr. Given our archaic vocabulary and different pronunciation I would even clasify it as an independent language. (If Balkan slavs can do this because one guy is saying lepo and the other lijepo, we as f'ing sure can given the outrages differences.)

I mean the evidence is here...our ancestors were two separate groups in antiquity but I for sure don't think that some Thracian like primitive shepherd nation totally erased the Illyrian language. Look at Bulgaria, plenty of Paleo Balkan Thracian like admixture what language do these folks speak? a Slavic one. Thracian like populations quite often had a passive nature and assimilated into other cultures quite easily. Just look at Eastern Montenegro or North Macedonia... isn't it ironic that the classification of Balkan Slavs depends on their percentage of Thracian like admixture.

 

[mount123]

If you could provide some evidence to shed some light on Berisha in Rugove; If you are in Kosove, maybe you yourself could buy Mark Krasniqi's book & see what it says.

[FONT=&quot]
Mark „Krasniqi“? Mark „Krasniqi“ was a Yugo nostalgic and had a deep communist and at the same time chauvinist contemplation. Furthermore, he completed his primary education in Peja, his middle and high school and his college studies in Serbian language.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]All „Krasniqi“ from his origin area tested R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705 so he is not a real Krasniq.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]As far for myself I know who I am. I am a Krasniqi man J2b-L283>Z597>Y21045>Y20899>PH1751>Y52453. I know the folkloric legends of my tribe, the historical oral traditions of the elders of our village and our ancestors.

[/FONT]

 

[kl1ki]

Mark „Krasniqi“? Mark „Krasniqi“ was a Yugo nostalgic and had a deep communist and at the same time chauvinist contemplation. Furthermore, he completed his primary education in Peja, his middle and high school and his college studies in Serbian language.


All „Krasniqi“ from his origin area tested R1b-Z2103>BY611>Z2705 so he is not a real Krasniq.


As far for myself I know who I am. I am a Krasniqi man J2b-L283>Z597>Y21045>Y20899>PH1751>Y52453. I know the folkloric legends of my tribe, the historical oral traditions of the elders of our village and our ancestors.

Cmon, can we be serious for once?

 

[enter_tain]

Why is it always the Yugoslavians that are butthurt about Albanian being Illyrian? They don't have much of a history so they try to others' history down.

Albanian has some Illyrian influence and some stark differences as well with the Illyrian. Illyrian influence seems lexical. Similarly how English has strong French influence but it is not a Latin language.



In Antiquity Bardylis in Albanian would have sounded as Bardzylis (Barxilys in Albanian), would have been likely written as Barzylis, surelynot Bardylis..

In this instance Albanian shows more relation to Messapian, in Messapian "Barzidihi/Barzides" was attested as a surname.



They had an Illyrian elite which arrived there in 5th century BC, but they were not of Illyrian origin for the most part. Politically they were Illyrian, but various authors ascribed them existence of other peoples, as attested by archeological material, and reports of slavery among Dardanians which was ethnically based per some authors (Illyrians enslaving the locals). Also Dardanii of Troy who are the pre-Illyrian population of Dardania are an older group of people clearly unrelated to the Illyrians.

These arguments are nonsense for 2 main reasons.

(1) There was no single literary Illyrian language. It was a wide territory inhabited for >2000 years. There should be multiple Illyrian dialects/languages, like there are multiple Latin languages (French, Italian, Spanish), Slavic (Russian, Polish, Bulgarian), Germanic, etc... You can still do analysis on these languages, since they are related, but we don't know what dialect/language is related to what, and how the Albanoi dialect related to the rest of the dialects.

(2) All evidence we have is from exonyms. Greeks/Romans appropriated names so they could abide by their language rules. That's why Arben is rendered as "Albania" (similar to Albanus Hills near Rome), and the Greeks rendered it as "Arbon/Abroi". Look at the Albanian name and how it's rendered in different languages. Arvanon, Albanon, Laban, Arwentiki, etc...

If we had an Illyrian language attested, there would be no question as to whether Albanian is derived from it.