Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[broder]

Its just some Albanians are butthurt because they are descendants of Bessi who invaded Byzantine Arbanon.

J2b2 people are not "true" Albanians, they are just people assimilated by the R-Z2705 proto-Albanians. And these were (possibly) Dardanian-speakers from the central Balkans.

Don't place all your chips on Bessi, bud. BTW, what do you make of that CTS1450 from Timacum Minus being in that CNE cluster?

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I'm no expert but one should also not expect Albanian to be similar to ancient languages weather Illyrian or any other language. Maybe not the actual structure of the language (For example Thracian survived up until 900 AD I believe and there is an inscription in Thracian) but words at least in the way they behave have changed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Albanian_language if you look at some of the examples there. We don't have anything of proto-Albanian to know. We know a rhotacism happened in Tosk 'r' and Gheg 'n'.

I find it funny how this guy claims Illyrian is not even related to Messapian when you look at some astonishing similarities

Linguistic evidence suggest that Messapic could have been the descendant of an unattested paleo-Balkanic language.^[12] Based upon lexical similarities with the Illyrian languages, some scholars contend that Messapic may have developed from a dialect of pre-Illyrian, meaning that it would have diverged substantially from the Illyrian language(s) spoken in the Balkans by the 5th century BC.^[13] A number of shared features with proto-Albanian may have emerged on their side as a result of linguistic contacts between Proto-Messapic and Pre-Proto-Albanian within the Balkan peninsula in prehistoric times

Although the Illyrian languages – and to some extent Messapic itself – are too scarcely attested to allow for an extensive linguistic comparison,^{[12][note 3]} the Messapic language is generally regarded as related to, though distinct from, the Illyrian languages.^[17] This theory is supported by a series of similar personal and place names from both sides of the Adriatic Sea. Proposed cognates in Illyrian and Messapic, respectively, include: 'Bardyl(l)is/Barzidihi', 'Teuta/Teutā', 'Dazios/Dazes', 'Laidias/Ladi-', 'Platōr/Plator-', 'Iapydes/Iapyges', 'Apulus/Apuli', 'Dalmata/Dalmathus', 'Peucetioe/Peucetii', 'Ana/Ana', 'Beuzas/Bozat', 'Thana/Thana', 'Dei-paturos/Da-matura'.^[18]

This guy is basically what one calls a conspiracy theorist. That's basically what this guy is.

Albanian in my view must come from one of these groups of people called ''Illyrians'' by the ancient Greeks, or a branch. We don't know how similar languages these people spoke. In Ancient histography we know most of the Western Balkans was inhabited by Illyrians and the Dardanians were called Illyrians too.

Michiel De Vaan seems to claim it is a related language to Illyrian and Messapian. Which makes sense.

It's also possible that the elements this guy is talking about is something that was added in Illyrian later or there were different branches of Illyrian that developed differently as did Proto-Albanian.

 

[Southpaw]

Stop crying man, this guy, this guy. As if he took the lollipop from you. Just discuss with facts if you want.

 

[Southpaw]

I am just going by what has been published, when I see it I will believe it. Too bad those Dauni samples are of low quality and we can't see what they are. If they made their way across the Adriatic from southern Albania as is postulated, maybe one of those M269 fellas may be PF7563 (if they are not Z2103 or L51). Anyway, I guess at least one of them is PH1602- so that trajectory may be correct.

Yeah, saw them. They seem like outliers though with that southern drift - and obviously missing from the earlier periods. There is also a Y15058 in Vas County, Hungary in La Tene contexts, so things don't seem that simple.

Let's wait for that upcoming paper.

I don't know what should we make of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture, material culture of Messapi is ambigious, they didn't practice tumuli burials but instead oval pits and children were buried in burial jars.

I don't see any reason anymore to doubt about the relationship of E-V13 with Danubian Urnfield Culture, i was skeptical at first myself but not anymore. You have even people like Enchelei which traditionally were considered Illyrian but their burial rite is very different from Glasinac Illyrians, so Albanian archeologists were up to something when they said more than one material culture formed Illyrians.

 

[enter_tain]

Its just some Albanians are butthurt because they are descendants of Bessi who invaded Byzantine Arbanon.

You realize that is literally impossible? The Geg/Tosk split in Albanian happened from 4th century to 6th century. This is because Latin Christian loans are affected by the split, but Slavic loanwords aren't. Those Bessi people were still living in Bulgaria in the 9th century. That's a debunked theory that has no credit.

I love how every year some Slav has some new idea about where Albanians come from. First it was the guy who said Albanians are from North Africa because of EV13, and he was finding "common words" with Algerian. Then it was the other dude who said they are related to Caucasian Albanians, while neglecting those names are exonyms and they didn't call themselves that. Keep it going on though.

I'd love to hear some new theories that help you sleep at night.

That's why Genetics and Molecular Biology are my favorite scientific fields, no BS and 'playing' with the wind here !!

I agree 100%. That south Dalmatian Z638 is massive for Albanians and Illyro-Albanian continuity. It just fits so perfectly with everything else given northern Illyrians were L283-heavy, but not Z638 heavy. Albanians have the highest concentration of Z638 in the world today.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

I looked more into place names of Messapians and Daunians who are believed to of been Illyrians or Proto-Illyrians from the adriatic coast and some place names do
show same elements 'un' and 'um' and even 'ul' and 'ur'.

The main Daunian centers were Teanum Apulum (within the modern San Paolo di Civitate), Uria Garganica, the location of which though is not known with certainty, Casone, Lucera, Merinum (Vieste), Monte Saraceno (near Mattinata), Siponto, Coppa Nevigata, Cupola, Salapia (near Cerignola and Manfredonia), Arpi (near Foggia), Aecae (near Troia), Vibinum (Bovino), Castelluccio dei Sauri, Herdonia (Ordona), Ausculum (Ascoli Satriano), Ripalta (near Cerignola), Canosa di Puglia, Lavello and Venosa.

Some Messapian settlements:

Alytia (Alezio)

• Brundisium/Brentesion (Brindisi)
• Cavallino
• Hodrum/Idruntum (Otranto)
• Hyria/Orria (Oria)
• Kaìlia (Ceglie Messapica)
• Manduria
• Mesania (Mesagne)
• Neriton (Nardò)
• Rudiae (outside Lecce)
• Mios/Myron (Muro Leccese)
• Thuria Sallentina (Roca Vecchia)
• Uzentum (Ugento)

Since we have almost nothing of Illyrian it seems this is basically this guys entire claim, that the 'un' 'um' 'ul' 'ur' based on some place names ? I mean most Illyrian tribal names and even words do not shone this type of phonetic law based on my research. He has basically reconstructed some Illyrian language and claimed these things as part of some phonetic law.

He is basically arguing because Messapian doesn't show this in every place names that it is different apparently such as Mesania. This gives 'an' which he claims is un-Illyrian . I need to read this dudes book to see what he is larping about further.


I think this guy is a serious conspiracy theorist and a tin foil hatter unless I am misunderstanding. It would be embarrassing for this dude if some internet foras debunk this guy.


Albanian has changed since proto-Albanian and shaped different but proto-Albanian might of had this together with os, as etc

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Here some more

Overall, the complex of Albanian dialects remains a solid block of the Albanoid group still relatable with Messapic (observed in place naming in Apulia: some towns have no etymon outside Albanoid sources, for example in toponyms such as Manduria)

Here this Messapian toponym has the 'ur' which this dude is larping on about.

 

[broder]

I don't know what should we make of Matt-Painted Pottery Culture, material culture of Messapi is ambigious, they didn't practice tumuli burials but instead oval pits and children were buried in burial jars.

I don't see any reason anymore to doubt about the relationship of E-V13 with Danubian Urnfield Culture, i was skeptical at first myself but not anymore. You have even people like Enchelei which traditionally were considered Illyrian but their burial rite is very different from Glasinac Illyrians, so Albanian archeologists were up to something when they said more than one material culture formed Illyrians.

Matt-Painted Pottery was uniform in the early stages across southern Italy. Only in late 9th and 8th century regional differences start to emerge. Material culture can change rather rapidly though due to external influences, especially when occupying a new environment. There is no need to go that far back to see such examples. Just look at Albania during Ottoman empire. In matter of few hundred years they altered our funerary rites almost completely, with little or no genetic impact.

Their stone stelae are also interesting, and remind me of those found in North Albania, Has, and Tetove region. They probably had similar function.

 

[torzio]

Here some more



Here this Messapian toponym has the 'ur' which this dude is larping on about.

you seem a have a huge want to connect the Daunian Messapian connection with the Albanian coast ...................this connection did not happen between 1000BC to 420BC as the Daunians still got all their pottery from Croatian lands , they where an isolated community, not even mixing with their Samnite neighbours..................circa 420BC they began to make their own pottery and began trading their pots to some of the 14 Epirote tribes in NW Greece and Albania

 

[Southpaw]

Matt-Painted Pottery was uniform in the early stages across southern Italy. Only in late 9th and 8th century regional differences start to emerge. Material culture can change rather rapidly though due to external influences, especially when occupying a new environment. There is no need to go that far back to see such examples. Just look at Albania during Ottoman empire. In matter of few hundred years they altered our funerary rites almost completely, with little or no genetic impact.

Their stone stelae are also interesting, and remind me of those found in North Albania, Has, and Tetove region. They probably had similar function.

Yes, because of fundamental change, a universal religion like Islam, an Abrahamic one, there was no such thing in LBA to EIA. There was no universal message, but tribalistic mentality, and the last thing to be changed in a population during that time was funerary rite.

But, things are keep going, let's wait for Southern-arch paper then we can make conclusions with better probability.

 

[Fustan]

All of this stems from the fact that there was Albanian/Romanian contact, so he's trying to remove Albanians from the territory of Albania by making up ghost populations and fake migrations. The issue with this is:

(1) Albanian-Romanian contact was not bi-directional. It was uni-directional from Albanian to Romanian. Romanian has 0 influence on modern day Albanian. See for example the word "barz" related to the word Bardhe from Albanian. This means Albanians expanded into Proto-Romanian territory, not that ALL Albanians lived next to Romanians.

The contact between Albanians and Romanians is quite simple, it comes from the Vlachs, which is an exonym that groups up Latinized Proto-Albanians, Roman Imperials, Dacians and Early Slavs. There's quite a nice post about it on another fora: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project/page254&p=814895#post814895

Possibly also from the Albanians who migrated to Romania during the Ottoman times. I mean there was even the Gjika Albanian dynasty that ruled Romania and Moldova. People are really making things overly complicated just to undermine the Albanian relation to Illyrians.

 

[enter_tain]

Here some more



Here this Messapian toponym has the 'ur' which this dude is larping on about.

This has been established pretty well for a long time. Linguists have used Albanian to study Messapian, since like it was mentioned, some words in Messapian make no sense without using Albanian as a comparison.

It even shows stuff similar to pre/proto-Albanian like the "dh" sounds like "Bardhyll", which linguists think it was more like Barze or Barxe, and they have an analogue "Barzidihi". So it's likely his name was something like Bardzyl but Greeks wrote it as Bardyl to match their language.

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

Stop the crying and deal with the fact that this is what serious academics are saying.
Its obvious that you havent ever even read this book so the only person that is hoaxing here is you.

I speak German and just read through some of the images you posted here and just some con artist that is easily debunked and is using letters like 'o' and 'a' in words that have possibly changed over time. 'Un' 'Um' 'Ul', 'Ur' . And using suffix like -an and -u endings to claim different languages based on some scarcity of words and a language we know almost nothing of. Also cherrypicking examples. I can say that this guy is a living troll. And clearly has an agenda. In order to claim to different languages or two different origins there needs to be some serious evidence put forth because the cultural material linking Albanian, Messapian and Illyrian is pretty strong. Words change over time.

Not to mention the influx of foreign influence such as Greek, Roman etc etc. The guy is a con artist. The structure of a language is much more important which he clearly doesn't seem to of dealt with when it comes to Thracian/Dacian and other Balkan languages. Same guy who copy pasted Schramms work who had already been debunked by Cabej.

He claimed in his first work that Albanians were from the Bessi tribe.

This is your compelling evidence and what we are supposed to be looking at ?


WOW I am absolutely sold

 

[Thrako_Illyrian]

This has been established pretty well for a long time. Linguists have used Albanian to study Messapian, since like it was mentioned, some words in Messapian make no sense without using Albanian as a comparison.

It even shows stuff similar to pre/proto-Albanian like the "dh" sounds like "Bardhyll", which linguists think it was more like Barze or Barxe, and they have an analogue "Barzidihi". So it's likely his name was something like Bardzyl but Greeks wrote it as Bardyl to match their language.

Yes. Exactly, Illyrian apparently also had the 'dh' sound I read.

I might be wrong but I think even the suffix um and un and all these things this guy is larping about in Illyrian place names appear only during Roman rule. Such as 'Delminium' . In earlier context the name appears totally different such as Delmina/Delmatae etc. as do most place names and tribal names. It could be Daunians, Messapians etc received such influence too. In this context Proto-Albanian, Thracian and even Illyrian before Roman period are much more similar and actually similar to Proto-Lithuanian or Lithuanian which has retained a lot of it's old IE components. But the structure of Thracian/Dacian like I said is different from Albanian and I think it's one of the biggest evidence to show Albanian could of not come from such a language, in fact it is a much stronger argument than any of what this dude is claiming about Illyrian being different from Messapian and Albanian. Basically some changing of letters in words which could of happened over time as a result of change like 'r' rhotacism in Tosk and in Gheg 'n' . I'm no expert but there is no way some minority language survived Illyrian domination and was in contact with Messapian in the Western Balkans, recieved such strong cultural influence, cultural material etc etc. This guy is a propagandist.

This guy has literally used Roman influenced toponyms basically to claim some different branch of language ? There is also some other stuff this guy is larping about -o -a -an that makes no sense. What a moron


I cannot stop laughing at this moron.

 

[Southpaw]

We want to read something constructive in this thread. Can we keep it clean?

 

[Johane Derite]

Again, many of these arguments are not "unique" to Matzinger as if he is inventing them or something, they are plain to see for linguists and have been known about since forever:



"It is clear that in the Middle Ages the Albanians extended farther north; that there are persuasive arguments which have been advanced against their having extended as far as the Adriatic coast — the fact that Scodra 'Scutari' (Shkodër) shows un-Albanian development, that there is no demonstrated old maritime vocabulary (see above), and that there are few ancient Greek loans; and that there are arguments in favor of old Dardania: Nish < Naíssos, with development as in pyll 'forest' < *pëýll < *padle(m) < *palūdem,"

Eric Hamp
1963


So this attempt to try pile on one linguist because he is arguing for clear mismatch between the phonological systems of two languages as if he is the only one that is noticing, is futile.

Finding a word here or there even if related isn't going to change the phonological system mismatch, as this is what determines descent in linguistics.

Illyrian and Albanian will have cognates, probably more than Albanian and Celtic, this is to be expected just from geographical proximity alone, but their phonological systems are not matching according to countless linguists now, and this is why they are argued to not descend from one another.

 

[Southpaw]

This would make sense if E-V13 was a Central-Eastern Balkan lineage, and J2b2-L283 a Western Balkan and R1B-Z2103 is hard to pinpoint but looks more like a generic lineage in Balkans probably the initial spreader of Balkan IE languages.

As for the archeological part, i stick with Marija Gimbutas, the Tumulus descended Koszider hoard probably influenced the Glasinac during Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age, and probably they brought this East Alpine Block language. They might not have changed the structure of previous Early/Middle Bronze Age Glasinac-related culture, but enriched the metal-working techniques for what Tumulus-Grave was known in whole Europe matched only by Carpathian Urnfielders.

 

[enter_tain]

This guy has literally used Roman influenced toponyms basically to claim some different branch of language ? There is also some other stuff this guy is larping about -o -a -an that makes no sense. What a moron


I cannot stop laughing at this moron.

Yep. It's so childish it's hilarious. Who lets this Matzinger guy have a degree let alone a book? The funny thing is Delminium exists in Greek as Delminion. He picked "um" ending to say it's Italic or something?

Like I said, I can't wait till he claims Albanopolis is Greek, because of the "opolis" ending Byzantine Greek writers gave it.

 

[exercitus]

WTF... Facts and arguments dude, that's all, the academic world needs no BS anymore, if a Linguist needs 40 € for every book he sells (because of his 'natural' luxury to accomplish every pleasure in this ""wonderful world""!!!), then he should 'earn' it honestly, and not throught obsolete fairytales just to draw attention !!
The Scientific truth is a serious matter, no speculation or 'sweet' lies are allowed if the scientific methodology is not applied/respected!!

Albanians genetically are generally descendants of paleo-balkan people, thats what Genetics shows us, if Matzinger do not agree with this fact than he should start a new chapter in his Professional life: School of Population Genetics Vienna, that is sincere advice!!

 

[enter_tain]

Again, many of these arguments are not "unique" to Matzinger as if he is inventing them or something, they are plain to see for linguists and have been known about since forever:



"It is clear that in the Middle Ages the Albanians extended farther north; that there are persuasive arguments which have been advanced against their having extended as far as the Adriatic coast — the fact that Scodra 'Scutari' (Shkodër) shows un-Albanian development, that there is no demonstrated old maritime vocabulary (see above), and that there are few ancient Greek loans; and that there are arguments in favor of old Dardania: Nish < Naíssos, with development as in pyll 'forest' < *pëýll < *padle(m) < *palūdem,"

Eric Hamp
1963


So this attempt to try pile on one linguist because he is arguing for clear mismatch between the phonological systems of two languages as if he is the only one that is noticing, is futile.

Finding a word here or there even if related isn't going to change the phonological system mismatch, as this is what determines descent in linguistics.

Illyrian and Albanian will have cognates, probably more than Albanian and Celtic, this is to be expected just from geographical proximity alone, but their phonological systems are not matching according to countless linguists now, and this is why they are argued to not descend from one another.

I already explained this to you. Scupi and Scodra follow the exact same sound development. There is 0 difference and they are both attested in pre-Latin times. Nis is not an Albanian city. It was a Celtic city that was taken over by Albanians. They did not originate in that region. That was a Roman/Celtic region.

We literally have a handful of Doric loanwords in Albanian, that wouldn't exist that far up north. Doric languages almost all went extinct by the time Romans came there.

WTF... Facts and arguments dude, that's all, the academic world needs no BS anymore, if a Linguist needs 40 € for every book he sells (because of his 'natural' luxury to accomplish every pleasure in this ""wonderful world""!!!), then he should 'earn' it honestly, and not throught obsolete fairytales just to draw attention !!

The Scientific truth is a serious matter, no speculation or 'sweet' lies are allowed if the scientific methodology is not applied/respected!!
Albanians genetically are generally descendants of paleo-balkan people, thats what Genetics shows us, if Matzinger do not agree with this fact than he should start a new chapter in his Professional life: School of Population Genetics Vienna, that is sincere advice!!

This dude is disgracing the Austrian school of Albanology that has existed for over 100 years. The funny thing is Albanian archeologists follow the Austrian school way closer than this guy.