Solutrean hypothesis: Native American Clovis Culture & NW Europe: (ydna Q, mtdna X2)

[martiko]

The problem with the distribution of R1 and X2 is that it appears to be limited tothe eastern half North America. That would seem to suggest a rather recent origin, otherwise it would be evenly distributed over both continents.
Also, any migration by foot would have to happen during the glacial maximum, I would think. There's still a lot of blue water at the North Pole that was iced over.

really R1 among am?rindians (Blackfeet) because they seem to be the very rare survivors of the cataclysme caused by the explosion of the meteorite, otherwise they have no DNA of epoch because everything burned during years on all northwest of the North America.(11500BCE)

Possible trajectory

 

[LeBrok]

really R1 among am�rindians (Blackfeet) because they seem to be the very rare survivors of the catclysme caused by the explosion of the meteorite, otherwise they have no DNA of epoch because everything burned during years on all northwest of the North America.(11500BCE)

What, every DNA burned but somehow people (Blackfoot) survived?!:43:

 

[martiko]

Very for the time being theory is, and for the survivors they are those located the most distant from the place of low atmosphere where blew up the meteorite, therefore least on the West
it is determined the redemption of all kinds of big animals and arboreal flora, at the same time to Clovis in the precise date of the disaster (tiger, lion, huge buffalo, horses, huge bear, mamouth,....)

 

[JS Bach]

Origin and Post-Glacial Dispersal of Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups C and D in Northern Asia
Excerpt: The present-day variation of haplogroups C and D suggests that these mtDNA clades expanded before the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), with their oldest lineages being present in eastern Asia.

The pre-LGM origin of mtDNA C is in East Asia.

I agree with that part. Mtdna C and D are on the East Asian “M” branch of the mtdna tree. However, I suspect y-dna Q (and R) probably originated in Northern Asia as well and were originally caucasoid, or at least mostly caucasoid. The dna of the 24,000-year-old boy from Mal’ta, South-Central Siberia is more closely related to western Eurasians than eastern Eurasians, and belongs to haplogroup R*, which is close to the base of Q on the y-dna tree.


We can speculate as to when mtdna C entered Europe. My view is that mtdna C probably entered Europe with the proto-Solutreans, and from there crossed the North Atlantic to North America, but I’m expecting many people to disagree with that. I think the best evidence I have for that is contained in the book “Across Atlantic Ice” by Stanford and Bradley.


To anyone who’s interested, Stanford gives an overview of the book in a lecture broken down into 6 videos on youtube. In the fourth part here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl3t4rRo3SM he talks about haplogroup X from around 4:00 on. From Wikipedia, Dennis Stanford is an archaeologist and director of the Paleoindian/Paleoecology program at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution.

 

[Aberdeen]

I agree with that part. Mtdna C and D are on the East Asian “M” branch of the mtdna tree. However, I suspect y-dna Q (and R) probably originated in Northern Asia as well and were originally caucasoid, or at least mostly caucasoid. The dna of the 24,000-year-old boy from Mal’ta, South-Central Siberia is more closely related to western Eurasians than eastern Eurasians, and belongs to haplogroup R*, which is close to the base of Q on the y-dna tree.


We can speculate as to when mtdna C entered Europe. My view is that mtdna C probably entered Europe with the proto-Solutreans, and from there crossed the North Atlantic to North America, but I’m expecting many people to disagree with that. I think the best evidence I have for that is contained in the book “Across Atlantic Ice” by Stanford and Bradley.


To anyone who’s interested, Stanford gives an overview of the book in a lecture broken down into 6 videos on youtube. In the fourth part here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl3t4rRo3SM he talks about haplogroup X from around 4:00 on. From Wikipedia, Dennis Stanford is an archaeologist and director of the Paleoindian/Paleoecology program at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution.

I haven't read the book by Stanford and Bradley, so perhaps you could give me a brief explanation why you've concluded that any connection between Europeans and pre-Columbian Native Americans happened as a result of movement across the Atlantic, as opposed to a common origin in southern Siberia that resulted in the ancestors of Native Americans going across the Bering Straits and the ancestors of Europeans heading west from Siberia into Europe. I'll look at the Youtube videos and perhaps they will address my concerns, but can you summarize here?

 

[JS Bach]

I haven't read the book by Stanford and Bradley, so perhaps you could give me a brief explanation why you've concluded that any connection between Europeans and pre-Columbian Native Americans happened as a result of movement across the Atlantic, as opposed to a common origin in southern Siberia that resulted in the ancestors of Native Americans going across the Bering Straits and the ancestors of Europeans heading west from Siberia into Europe. I'll look at the Youtube videos and perhaps they will address my concerns, but can you summarize here?

Well, I think seeing Stanford presenting the videos starting with part 1 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tjoHMMPH90 would convey a far better explanation of it than I could ever give, but basically he looks at the archaeological findings and artifacts of pre-Clovis and Clovis sites in North America, compares them with the Solutrean ones in southwestern Europe, and concludes that the former are derived from the Solutrean. I’m not a stone tool knapper so I can’t say with certainty if he’s correct about that, but he backs up his points with lots of reasons for his claims, and I think he does it in an entertaining fashion as well. I know the topic of stone tools may not sound very interesting, but he has a very easy-going demeanour, is very experienced with the topic, and presents lots of graphs and pictures with his jokes sprinkled in throughout the talk.

 

[martiko]

What, every DNA burned but somehow people (Blackfoot) survived?!:43:

Polymorphismes des groupes sanguins :

The polymorphisme ABO is found everywhere in the world, except for the native populations of Central America and for the South where alone the group O is present.

In the northwest of North America, they find the highest worldwide frequency of the group A to Indian Blackfoot and Blood.

It is east of Asia where the prevalency of the group B is the strongest.

The B group, it seems, penetrated into Europe from Asia in the course of the different waves of plagues, what explains that his frequency diminishes to an est/sud-ouest gradient, from Russia to the Basque Country.

It is nonexistent in am?rindiennes populations and aborigines of Australia.

Maximum frequency of A is found in countries Scandinavians.

In Europe, the population Basque, being supposed to do to represent the most ancient human group of this continent and having kept in the course of ages a strong rate of endogamy, present of very particular characters, with the strongest frequency of O and the weakest of B.

It was represented of associations between certain groups ABO and various clever, contagious pathologies or thrombotiques what can let think of a phenomenon of natural selection.

So, they showed at the individual's of group not O a significant increase of the risk of thrombotique at the same time arterial and venous illness.

It could be in touch with a lower medium rate of the complex circulating mailman VIII

– mailman Willebrand (about 25 %) at the individuals O.

therefore it is also determined at home big proportion of A followed of B and O weaker and it in contradiction with other am?rindiens.
And as to the different europ?ens'( Russian, Basque, Scandinavian) they seem to be comparable. They are therefore one descendants different.

High frequency
O negative: Basque and Icelandic
A positive: German and Scandinavian
B positive: Europeans (from Russian to basques)

 

[Nanda gikendaan]

I agree with that part. Mtdna C and D are on the East Asian “M” branch of the mtdna tree. However, I suspect y-dna Q (and R) probably originated in Northern Asia as well and were originally caucasoid, or at least mostly caucasoid. The dna of the 24,000-year-old boy from Mal’ta, South-Central Siberia is more closely related to western Eurasians than eastern Eurasians, and belongs to haplogroup R*, which is close to the base of Q on the y-dna tree.

We can speculate as to when mtdna C entered Europe. My view is that mtdna C probably entered Europe with the proto-Solutreans, and from there crossed the North Atlantic to North America, but I’m expecting many people to disagree with that. I think the best evidence I have for that is contained in the book “Across Atlantic Ice” by Stanford and Bradley

The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.

 

[JS Bach]

The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.

Well I guess we’ll see where the evidence leads with those things in the future.

 

[Aberdeen]

The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.

Although I'm not a fan of the Solutrean theory, I'm curious as to how you know that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years. If you have a lot of YDNA samples for remains that date prior to that period and that were found in those areas that currently are very high in R (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country), please tell me where this data has been published. Also, if there are scientific studies that show that all of the R1 YDNA tested in the Native American samples are from European subclades, please tell me where this data has been published (and no, a statement like "it is assumed" is not scientific proof). I'm sure some of the R1 results that have been found in Native Americans are as a result of European contact (the Cherokee are fairly mixed, for example) but I'm particularly interested in the results that people like Bortolini and Malhi found among Dene people such as the Chippewyan (62.5 R1 and zero other "European" Y haplotypes) and the Dogrib (40% R1 and zero other European haplotypes). If these results weren't tested any further than R1, we have to say that we have no data on that particular question.

 

[kamani]

nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.

Can you back this up with a reference. It got my curiosity..

 

[martiko]

The problem with this theory is: R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, which does not coincide with the Solutrean period, so if there was a migration from Europe it was not the Solutrean.

Secondly, there is no scientific evidence of pre-colonization R1 in the Americas.

The only source for R1 in the Americas is Wikipedia. That’s because there are a few “core Wikipedia Editors" who promote the Solutrean Theory.

Other core Editors and the public have pointed out many times that the references cited do not support pre-colonization R1 in the Americas. It’s only the Wikipedia produced maps which show R1 in the Americas.

No Scientific study has ever produced a map indicating R1 is an Amerindian haplotype.

The uniparental markers found in the 24,000 year old Mal’ta boy were Siberian/East Asian. Although those markers are found in Europe/West Eurasia today, those markers were not European/West Eurasian 24,000 years ago nor was the Mal’ta boy Caucasoid.

R1 is a theory but not a certainty!
What is proved to be it is the intersidereal catclysme which endes the physiognomy of the North America by ruining the colossal forests of the middle west and disintegrating colossal floes.

...... In October, 2007, a team of 26 researchers belonging to 16 institutions had moved forward the theory of the fall of several comets to explain the glacial period of 1300 years obviously responsible for the redemption of several animal kinds among which mammoths as well as division of the prehistoric culture said about Clovis, one of the most ancient having populated the American continent .......
.....One of the coats of sediments rich in nano-diamonds of cosmic origin recuperated Clovis directly with relics of culture on the archeological site very rich in Murray Springs in Arizona (southwest).

These nano-diamonds form in very high temperatures and under very strong pressures created by a cosmic impact. They find it in meteorites. Nano-diamonds can be produced on the Earth but only by a very strong explosion or by chemical vaporization......

 

[martiko]

Although I'm not a fan of the Solutrean theory, I'm curious as to how you know that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years. If you have a lot of YDNA samples for remains that date prior to that period and that were found in those areas that currently are very high in R (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country), please tell me where this data has been published. Also, if there are scientific studies that show that all of the R1 YDNA tested in the Native American samples are from European subclades, please tell me where this data has been published (and no, a statement like "it is assumed" is not scientific proof). I'm sure some of the R1 results that have been found in Native Americans are as a result of European contact (the Cherokee are fairly mixed, for example) but I'm particularly interested in the results that people like Bortolini and Malhi found among Dene people such as the Chippewyan (62.5 R1 and zero other "European" Y haplotypes) and the Dogrib (40% R1 and zero other European haplotypes). If these results weren't tested any further than R1, we have to say that we have no data on that particular question.

R1 is not an european but a Siberian, and first porter R1b has only 14000 years the first R1a old and only 12000 years old, therefore it participants do not belong to Clovis.
Ancient European from the west the only ones did not belong to maitriser the techniques of size of the obsidian or flint
better aspiring two seem to be Q3 and R1 compared with the Indian tribes of lowlands, but anything is proved and every rest theory, and everything remains to prove. And how to explain Mt DNA X and Y DNA R1?

 

[sparkey]

Although I'm not a fan of the Solutrean theory, I'm curious as to how you know that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years. If you have a lot of YDNA samples for remains that date prior to that period and that were found in those areas that currently are very high in R (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country), please tell me where this data has been published.

To be fair, she said "about." More importantly is her point, which can be substantiated by published data, that there is evidence against R1 being so ancient in the Solutrean region. Such evidence would include modern SNP diversity, modern STR diversity, and assorted pre-Copper Age ancient samples. Asking for much more at this point would be asking to prove a negative. There needs to be evidence for R1 in the Solutrean region during the Solutrean period before we can continue this side of the discussion.

Also, if there are scientific studies that show that all of the R1 YDNA tested in the Native American samples are from European subclades, please tell me where this data has been published (and no, a statement like "it is assumed" is not scientific proof). I'm sure some of the R1 results that have been found in Native Americans are as a result of European contact (the Cherokee are fairly mixed, for example) but I'm particularly interested in the results that people like Bortolini and Malhi found among Dene people such as the Chippewyan (62.5 R1 and zero other "European" Y haplotypes) and the Dogrib (40% R1 and zero other European haplotypes). If these results weren't tested any further than R1, we have to say that we have no data on that particular question.

We have data on several tribes, from plenty of R1 carrying Amerindians who have joined public DNA projects, as I linked earlier in this thread. All have been apparently European lines. Sure, there are some tribes that haven't been sampled like that, and it would be worthwhile to sample them, but until that happens, "it is assumed" and it is justified to be assumed based on the weight of current evidence that R1 in Amerindians is European. Asking more at this point is, again, asking to prove a negative.

 

[JS Bach]

To be fair, he said "about." More importantly is his point, which can be substantiated by published data, that there is evidence against R1 being so ancient in the Solutrean region. Such evidence would include modern SNP diversity, modern STR diversity, and assorted pre-Copper Age ancient samples. Asking for much more at this point would be asking to prove a negative. There needs to be evidence for R1 in the Solutrean region during the Solutrean period before we can continue this side of the discussion.



We have data on several tribes, from plenty of R1 carrying Amerindians who have joined public DNA projects, as I linked earlier in this thread. All have been apparently European lines. Sure, there are some tribes that haven't been sampled like that, and it would be worthwhile to sample them, but until that happens, "it is assumed" and it is justified to be assumed based on the weight of current evidence that R1 in Amerindians is European. Asking more at this point is, again, asking to prove a negative.

With due respect, there’s another possible (if far-fetched) scenario for how R1 might have entered the Americas before 10,000 ybp. After the LGM ended around 16,000 ybp the ice sheets retreated for a few thousand years, but then the Younger Dryas came and the ice sheets would have re-expanded again until about 12,000 ybp, and they might have extended to the Grand Banks, off the coast of Newfoundland. And if it was as late as 12,000 years ago, the R1 might have even been R1b1a2 (M269) and hence be hard to distinguish from modern European R1b. There are speculations as to other ancient European cultures being descendants of the Solutreans, such as the Swiderian culture, 10,000 ybp in Poland and the surrounding areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian I wonder if there’s some R1b1a2* in that region that matches some found in Amerindians?

 

[Aberdeen]

R1 is not an european but a Siberian, and first porter R1b has only 14000 years the first R1a old and only 12000 years old, therefore it participants do not belong to Clovis.
Ancient European from the west the only ones did not belong to maitriser the techniques of size of the obsidian or flint
better aspiring two seem to be Q3 and R1 compared with the Indian tribes of lowlands, but anything is proved and every rest theory, and everything remains to prove. And how to explain Mt DNA X and Y DNA R1?

I wasn't talking about Clovis. As I've said elsewhere, I suspect that mtDNA X arrived in the Americas from Siberia with the second wave of settlement, about 8,000 years ago. And I'd like to find out whether that wave of settlement included Y haplotype R1, although it could have included only Y haplotypes Q and C.

 

[Aberdeen]

To be fair, he said "about." More importantly is his point, which can be substantiated by published data, that there is evidence against R1 being so ancient in the Solutrean region. Such evidence would include modern SNP diversity, modern STR diversity, and assorted pre-Copper Age ancient samples. Asking for much more at this point would be asking to prove a negative. There needs to be evidence for R1 in the Solutrean region during the Solutrean period before we can continue this side of the discussion.
...........

As I've said before, if there's any evidence of a connection between the Solutreans and Clovis, I think that would date back to a common point of origin in Siberia, which seems to me to be much more probable than Solutreans journeying across the ice in the north Atlantic. And I didn't at any point say that I thought R1 had been in Solutrean territory that far back - as I've said before, I think R1b reached the Atlantic coastline during the Neolithic. I said I wasn't a fan of the Solutrean/Clovis idea, I just questioned the statement that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, and asked for evidence. Even if I'm wrong about R1b being in western Europe prior to the Copper Age, there's good reason to believe that R1a might have been in eastern Europe for a fairly long time. But I did ask specifically about evidence that R1 wasn't in those areas where R1b is now most common (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country). If you know of a lot of Y haplotype samples from those areas from the Neolithic, which show a lack of R1 (specifically R1b) please tell me where this information has been published. Because I believe there are only a few Neolithic Y haplotype samples so far, and none of them are from Wales, Ireland or the Basque country. No, it's not reasonable to ask someone to prove a negative, but it's also not reasonable to assume that a lack of data is evidence of anything.

 

[Nanda gikendaan]

I just questioned the statement that R1 has only been in Europe for about 5-6000 years, and asked for evidence. Even if I'm wrong about R1b being in western Europe prior to the Copper Age, there's good reason to believe that R1a might have been in eastern Europe for a fairly long time. But I did ask specifically about evidence that R1 wasn't in those areas where R1b is now most common (Wales, Ireland and the Basque country). If you know of a lot of Y haplotype samples from those areas from the Neolithic, which show a lack of R1 (specifically R1b) please tell me where this information has been published. Because I believe there are only a few Neolithic Y haplotype samples so far, and none of them are from Wales, Ireland or the Basque country. No, it's not reasonable to ask someone to prove a negative, but it's also not reasonable to assume that a lack of data is evidence of anything.

R1b in Europe
R1b-S21 => 3,000 years ago (in Frisia or Central Europe)
R1b-S28 => 3,500 years ago (around the Alps)
R1b-L21 => 4,000 years ago (in Central or Eastern Europe)
R1b1b2 => 10,000 years ago (north or south of the Caucasus)
R1a => 17,000 years ago (in southern Russia)
R1b => 18,000 years ago (around the Caspian Sea or Central Asia)
R => 28,000 years ago (in the Central Asia)

eupedia. com / europe / origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

History of R1a - The Germanic branch
The first major expansion of R1a took place with the westward propagation of the Corded Ware (or Battle Axe) culture (2800-1800 BCE) from the northern forest-steppe in the Yamna homeland. This was the first wave of R1a into Europe, the one that brought the Z283 subclade to Germany and the Netherlands, and Z284 to Scandinavia.

eupedia. com / europe / Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

As a new member I'm not allowed to link, so this is all I can provide.

 

[Nanda gikendaan]

Can you back this up with a reference. It got my curiosity..

His DNA indicated he had, brown hair and eyes; and freckled skin. He was likely similar to people from Oceania, Southeast Asia or Native Americans.

 

[Aberdeen]

R1b in Europe
R1b-S21 => 3,000 years ago (in Frisia or Central Europe)
R1b-S28 => 3,500 years ago (around the Alps)
R1b-L21 => 4,000 years ago (in Central or Eastern Europe)
R1b1b2 => 10,000 years ago (north or south of the Caucasus)
R1a => 17,000 years ago (in southern Russia)
R1b => 18,000 years ago (around the Caspian Sea or Central Asia)
R => 28,000 years ago (in the Central Asia)

eupedia. com / europe / origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

History of R1a - The Germanic branch
The first major expansion of R1a took place with the westward propagation of the Corded Ware (or Battle Axe) culture (2800-1800 BCE) from the northern forest-steppe in the Yamna homeland. This was the first wave of R1a into Europe, the one that brought the Z283 subclade to Germany and the Netherlands, and Z284 to Scandinavia.

eupedia. com / europe / Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

As a new member I'm not allowed to link, so this is all I can provide.

I'm aware of those opinions, which were created by a very knowledgeable person, based on the data we have available at this time. Nevertheless, I repeat: we don't have data for any of the areas where R1b is most common today, and we don't have a lot of Neolithic Y DNA data for any part of Europe. I don't think we can make definitive conclusions in the absence of sufficient data.