why were I2a people exterminated in Italy and not in the Balkans ?

[Nobody1]

at Zanipolo

It seems that there is not only an Anthropological diff. Between North and South Italy, but also within the North itself. - between North West [Lombardy/Liguria/Piedmont] and North East [Veneto/Friul].
This is Strictly Anthropologically Sub-Races of the Caucasoid race [Alpine-Nordic-Mediterranean-Armenoid].

Eugène Pittard - Race and History: An Ethnological Introduction to History (1926)
~ ITALY ~ - p.148
(1) The Adriatic or Dinaric race, tall, brachycephalic and brunet, inhabited the northeast.
---
(2) The Western or Cevenole race, brunet, brachycephalic and small, installed itself to the west of the Dinaric people. But these representatives of Homo alpinus do not seem to constitute such a homogeneous bloc as their neighbours to the east.
---
(3) The Ibero-Insular race — the Homo meridionalis of certain authors — is distributed in the south of Italy; This ethnic type — small, dark-haired, dolichocephalic — also peoples the Italian islands [Sardinia/Sicily]
---
To these three main races we must add that interesting but, as regards its origin, enigmatic group of the Ligurian Apennines and the littoral of the Riviera di Levante characterized by tall stature and dolichocephaly. Ought we to connect it, zoologically, with the Atlanto-Mediterranean race of Deniker — which, with breaks, inhabits the country extending from the French coast almost to the mouth of the Tiber ? Have we here survivals of a Nordic type ? Or should we rather credit, historically, the idea that they are a remnant of the Germanic bands of Radegast rather than that they constitute a residue of hypothetical Lydians ?
---

Something all other Anthropologists [Eickstedt/Banse/Lundman/Deniker/Czekanowski etc] confirm, that NE Italy is more Dinaric and NW Italy more Alpinoid (Mediterranid/Atlanto-Mediterranid)

von Eickstedt -

Atlanto-Medit. from Piedmont NW Italy - [Carleton S. Coon - Plates]

Borreby [Nordid/Alpine] from Lombardy N Italy - [Carleton S. Coon - Plates]

Noric type from Vicenza (Venetia) NE Italy - [Ridolfo Livi - Plates]

Also, acc. to Ridolfo Livi the NE of Italy is the region with the highest frequency of Blond hair {higher than Lombardy or Piedmont] and together with Lombardy the highest frequency of Light eyes (Blue/Grey) in Italy.
Something [exact frequencies] also Beals & Hoijer confirm.

Dr. Ridolfo Livi - Antropometria Militare

Dr. Gustav Kraitschek - Zeitschrift für Schul-Geographie: Vol XXIII-XXIV (1902)
Der Einfluss der nordischen Rasse in Oberitalien ist nicht überall gleich stark ... unter den italienischen Arbeitern, die bei uns als Erdarbeiter, Straßenbauer usw thätig sind, sieht man zuweilen mächtige, blond- oder rothbärtige Männer mit "germanischem" Profile, die wohl meist aus den nördlichen Theilen der Poebene stammen.
Translation -
The influence of the Nordic race in northern Italy is not equally strong ... among Italian workers who are active with us (Austria-Hungary) as navvies, road builders, etc, you see sometimes powerful, blond or red-bearded men with "Germanic" profiles, which were probably mostly from the northern parts of the Po Valley.

Anthropologically the NE Italians (Venetians/Friulians) are more Noric/Dinaric than NW Italians (Lombards/Piedmontese/Ligurians) who are more Alpinoid/Mediterranid.The Adriatic Veneti must have been of a diff. Caucasoid sub-race than the Umbrians/Insubres (Isombri). Also Genetically, NE Italians have the highest (far more than NW Italy) R1a frequency in Italy.

 

[Nobody1]

as for the question itself, was there really that much I2a in Italy in order for it to be exterminated? doubtful.....

 

[adamo]

No there never was. And traits such as red hair are not indicative of race....there are R1b men with red, blond, brown even black hair and eye color... It's not indicative of subtypes of humans that are classified together

 

[gyms]

if I2a-Din was on Balkan in times of Illyrians, how can it be that it did not expand to Italy?
well, it does not makes sense... nothing to gain....Croatian coast with zillion islands is much better place to live and defend then flat line coasts of italy... " No,I2a-"DinS" was not on Balkan in times of Illyrians,because I2a-"DinS" is 2050 years old.Try to understand!

 

[adamo]

Possibly for environmental reasons maybe the just decided to stay in their Balkan Bosnian refuge, there may be many reasons why they never went to Italy including that they didn't know its existence, could be anything. All I know is that I is the oldest surviving male lineage to enter Europe so I2a could not have been in Europe the shortest total time that's for sure

 

[adamo]

Actually according to a map I saw recently by a certain geneticist called Nordverdt , I-M26 the Sardinian variety crossed directly from the Bosnia area of the Balkans to Italy, then to Sardinia, then to Spain then to France and some of it ended up in England, all at low trace percentages of course, other than Sardinia where it thrived. The second most common place is in Spain although its already rare even there.

 

[sparkey]

Actually according to a map I saw recently by a certain geneticist called Nordverdt , I-M26 the Sardinian variety crossed directly from the Bosnia area of the Balkans to Italy, then to Sardinia, then to Spain then to France and some of it ended up in England, all at low trace percentages of course, other than Sardinia where it thrived. The second most common place is in Spain although its already rare even there.

You're over-interpreting Nordtvedt's schematic map. It isn't intended to show the precise geographic branching locations of M26 across its history, it's only, as Nordtvedt says, a "schematic, don't overinterpret." More useful for a precise analysis of the history of M26 is Cullen's tree. Notice that its highest diversity is actually in Germany, but with its only major subclade having its highest diversity in France. That gives us a much better idea of its history. Also notice that, per Nordtvedt's map and tree, its closest relatives are the Western and Alpine subclades, followed by the big blob that includes the young Dinaric clade. But Dinaric is the geographic outlier... check out my map and look for the red dots.

 

[stoningbull54]

Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.

 

[ihype02]

Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.

Which place exactly? East Germany next to Czechia?

 

[Garrick]

Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.

Dervan was king of Lusatian Sorbs (Surbi) and Dervan' Serbia was country of Lusatian Sorbs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs_(tribe)

"The Surbi, also known as Sorbs in modern historiography, was an Early Slavic tribe in Lower Lusatia, part of the Wends. In the 7th century, the tribe was part of Samo's Empire. The tribe is last mentioned in the late 10th century.

Dervan's province.
The oldest mention of the Surbi is from the Frankish 7th-century Chronicle of Fredegar, in which they are mentioned as a Slavic tribe under the leadership of dux (duke) Dervan ("Dervanus dux gente Surbiorum que ex genere Sclavinorum"), which joined the Slavic tribal union of Samo (known in historiography as "Samo's Empire").[1] The Surbi lived in the Saale-Elbe valley, having settled in the Thuringian part of Francia.[1] The Saale-Elbe line marked the approximate limit of Slavic westward migration.[2] The Surbi and other Slavic tribes joined Samo after his decisive victory against Frankish King Dagobert I in 631.[1] Afterwards, these Slavic tribes continuously raided Thuringia.[1] The fate of the tribes after 658 is undetermined, though some subsequently returned to Frankish vassalage."
...

Nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, even genetic is very different, only similarity in name, probably word with letters s, r and b has old origin.

 

[Parafarne]

Look if there is 21-24% R1a in Southern Slavs then the Slavic ancestry should be around 40-47% in Balkan. The question must be are the rest of I2 native or Slavic migrators too, which in my believe were native to the Balkans and only half of Southern Slavs are from Slavic ancestry.

 

[Aaron1981]

Because the very common branches of I2-L621 in the Balkans have a very young TMRCA that spread with Slavic speakers less than 2000 years ago. Yes, the ancestor to this branch is far older, but likely resided in NE Europe along with R1a-M458. Perhaps the Belarus area. E-V13 is also quite common in this group as well, but it may have a different point of origin.

You might want to ask the question - Where did the G2a Carpathian farmers go? Good question. It's quite clear the branches common in the Balkans today were probably not there during the Bronze or Neolithic age. M458 and I2-L621 are definitely not Balkan refugium groups.

I2-M26 and I2-M223 have turned up in ancient DNA of the Carpathains/Balkans and are at negligible frequency in the same region today. Both have absolutely no relationship to the branches common in Slavic speakers who reside there today.

 

[Garrick]

Look if there is 21-24% R1a in Southern Slavs then the Slavic ancestry should be around 40-47% in Balkan. The question must be are the rest of I2 native or Slavic migrators too, which in my believe were native to the Balkans and only half of Southern Slavs are from Slavic ancestry.

For a long time there was no right explanation for this.

But Ukrainian scientists made a key breakthrough, they proved that in area north of the Black sea along the upper and middle Dnieper and Pripyat Rivers, Zarubintsy culture was Bastarnaian!

Zarubintsy culture is very important because it is predecessor of Kiev culture which is Slavic.

It means Bastarnae are one of key elements of Slavic ethnogenesis.

When we see movement of Bastarnae people they were in the area of Vistula before 200 BC and after that they migrated to the Dacian and Sarmatian borders.

If Bastarnae were Germanic, (or Celtic), what scholars think. But surely they were not Slavic.

Vistula area Nordtvedt designates for area where I-CTS10228 appeared after bottleneck.

It means Bastarnae can be Mesolitic survivors carriers of I-CTS10228 haplogroup.

Bastarnae first time came to the Balkans 179 BC, after that they came and settled more times, and they mixed with Thracians/Dacians. There is source which claims that significant part of Balkan population before 5th century was mixed Bastarnaian/Thracian.

Bastarnae who were on Northen Carpatian, and Western Ukraine and beyond mixed with Sarmatians, and probably Scythians.

What is interesting Bastarnae were very numerous that some historians call them people (nation) and not tribe.

If this theory accurate I-CTS10228 carriers were in the Balkans, Romania and Moldavia much before Slavs what excellency explains your question.

 

[Dumidre]

Interesting theory, one problem though... the presence of I-CTS10228 is quite large in the Balkans, Romania, Moldova... why not attribute that to the Dacians/ Getae/ Carps and all the other Thracian Tribes?

 

[Dumidre]

"Because the very common branches of I2-L621 in the Balkans have a very young TMRCA that spread with Slavic speakers less than 2000 years ago."
I2-L621 is present all the way in Sardinia and the Slavic speakers definitely originated way North and East of that... Is definitely a puzzle...

 

[MOESAN]

You 're confusing I2a1b L621 (Slavic?) with M26 ( Sardinia) I think.

 

[Dumidre]

You 're confusing I2a1b L621 (Slavic?) with M26 ( Sardinia) I think.

You are correct, my bad... I stand corrected (wrong source of info.)...