Who were R1a-M458 and what was their language most likely?

[Dibran]

ybp is measured from January 1950AD .........your L1029, if it is 2000ybp would mean 50BC

Could you elaborate? L1029 was discovered in 2012 only 6 years ago...

Yfull also updates estimates. Theoretically(if they apply Michals estimates in their aging) it should be between 2000-2300ypb....


According to a google search: Before Present (BP) years is a time scale used mainly in geology and other scientific disciplines to specify when events occurred in the past. Because the "present" time changes, standard practice is to use 1 January 1950 as the commencement date of the age scale, reflecting the origin of practical radiocarbon dating in the 1950s. The abbreviation "BP", with the same meaning, has also been interpreted^[1] as "Before Physics"; that is, before nuclear weapons testing artificially altered the proportion of the carbon isotopes in the atmosphere, making dating after that time likely to be unreliable.


L1029 was only discovered in 2012, so that doesn't change what I said. Using Michals estimates its likely within that range.

 

[MaxCRO]

proto west slavic imo.

 

[Dibran]

proto west slavic imo.

Maybe. We still need ancient YDNA(500AD and earlier) to make any hypothesis. Modern distributions don't mean much. That would only be for its subclades any way. M458(if that is what you called proto-west slavic) Formed 4200BC and as a MRCA of 3200BC. That is 4200 years ago. Proto-Slavic was only attested in the early middle ages as Slavic and its languages didn't diverge until the middle/high-middle ages.

It could be Proto-Balto Slavic. But there was no such thing as Proto-West Slavic in 3200BC. L260 could be Proto-West Slavic, as this is the prevailing clade among them. M458 and its subclades still remain a mystery until ancient DNA surfaces. Not even one sample is conclusive, yet, alot is said about it with no samples. Lets wait and see.

 

[Srbadija]

Maybe. We still need ancient YDNA(500AD and earlier) to make any hypothesis. Modern distributions don't mean much. That would only be for its subclades any way. M458(if that is what you called proto-west slavic) Formed 4200BC and as a MRCA of 3200BC. That is 4200 years ago. Proto-Slavic was only attested in the early middle ages as Slavic and its languages didn't diverge until the middle/high-middle ages.

It could be Proto-Balto Slavic. But there was no such thing as Proto-West Slavic in 3200BC. L260 could be Proto-West Slavic, as this is the prevailing clade among them. M458 and its subclades still remain a mystery until ancient DNA surfaces. Not even one sample is conclusive, yet, alot is said about it with no samples. Lets wait and see.

Proto-Balto-Slavic could be Z280. But M458 could easily be just Slavic, or pre-Slavic, but not Baltic really.

 

[Dibran]

Proto-Balto-Slavic could be Z280. But M458 could easily be just Slavic, or pre-Slavic, but not Baltic really.

No aDNA. Idk how many times I have to repeat myself. Z280 has been found in abundance from samples dating Bronze, Iron, and early middle ages. It is virtually found everywhere in Slavs in significant amounts. There is no ADNA for M458 or any of its subclades from before the 12th century. Which means absolutely nothing. We need samples 500AD and earlier to make any assumptions. It is literally highest in Central Europe, and practically fades to nothingness further east with a huge drop. It should be the reverse considering migratory patterns of the Slavic tribes from East to West. It is highest between the Elbe and the Oder and likely developed somewhere there. In the Balkans, with the exception of Bulgarians and Romanians, it reaches extremely low percentages elsewhere. Entire M458 in Serbia for instance is only 4 percent. Z280/I2-Din has the highest concentration in all Slavic countries. M458 is highest in Central Europe/West Slavs. Even then they mostly belong to L260, with L1029 being dominant in Germany Poland and South-West Belarus. If it is Slavic it is Proto-Slavic. If not, then Pre-Slavic. The only definite Slavic clades are the downstream clades from L260/L1029/YP515 that match the dating of the great migration wave. Like I said, Proto-Slavic was attested up to the late iron and early middle ages. Slavic was 5th-7th century. With common slavic and its language branches diverging in the high middle ages. Slavic as attested in the 5th and 7th centuries did not develop in 3200BC.

 

[Srbadija]

No aDNA. Idk how many times I have to repeat myself. Z280 has been found in abundance from samples dating Bronze, Iron, and early middle ages. It is virtually found everywhere in Slavs in significant amounts. There is no ADNA for M458 or any of its subclades from before the 12th century. Which means absolutely nothing. We need samples 500AD and earlier to make any assumptions. It is literally highest in Central Europe, and practically fades to nothingness further east with a huge drop. It should be the reverse considering migratory patterns of the Slavic tribes from East to West. It is highest between the Elbe and the Oder and likely developed somewhere there. In the Balkans, with the exception of Bulgarians and Romanians, it reaches extremely low percentages elsewhere. Entire M458 in Serbia for instance is only 4 percent. Z280/I2-Din has the highest concentration in all Slavic countries. M458 is highest in Central Europe/West Slavs. Even then they mostly belong to L260, with L1029 being dominant in Germany Poland and South-West Belarus. If it is Slavic it is Proto-Slavic. If not, then Pre-Slavic. The only definite Slavic clades are the downstream clades from L260/L1029/YP515 that match the dating of the great migration wave. Like I said, Proto-Slavic was attested up to the late iron and early middle ages. Slavic was 5th-7th century. With common slavic and its language branches diverging in the high middle ages. Slavic as attested in the 5th and 7th centuries did not develop in 3200BC.

No, but how it come in Balkans if not with Slavs (or eventually with Goths) ?

 

[Dibran]

No, but how it come in Balkans if not with Slavs (or eventually with Goths) ?

Some of it surely came with Slavs. Some rare branches arrived with Goths. I2a1b-Din is the most common Slavic haplogroup in the Balkans, and Z280 follows behind it. M458 reaches less than 5 percent or lower outside Bulgaria/Romania/Macedonia/Greece.

 

[Srbadija]

Some of it surely came with Slavs. Some rare branches arrived with Goths. I2a1b-Din is the most common Slavic haplogroup in the Balkans, and Z280 follows behind it. M458 reaches less than 5 percent or lower outside Bulgaria/Romania/Macedonia/Greece.

Still it's presented.

 

[Dibran]

Still it's presented.

Atypically, yes. Doesn't mean much. The chief R1a in South Slavs is mostly Z280. Most of the M458 in South Slavs is predominantly L1029 B-Eastern cluster and YP515. Little to no L1029-B-Western outside of Germany and Poland. In South Slavs it only makes up 20 percent or so of Bulgarian M458, which is only about 60-65 percent of Bulgarian R1a, of which R1a totals only 17 percent in Bulgaria. So it gets marginally lower across the board when we are speaking of clusters.

Additionally I2a1b-Din is the chief haplogroup amongst South-Slavs. Exceeding 20-30 percent in most cases. So I2a1b/Z280 are the chief haplogroups of the Slavic Migration. However, there are select clades even in V13, and J2 that arrived with Slavs as well. So, not all V13/J2b in South Slavs is of the Balkanic variety. At least per Maciamo.

 

[Sticazzi]

Atypically, yes. Doesn't mean much. The chief R1a in South Slavs is mostly Z280. Most of the M458 in South Slavs is predominantly L1029 B-Eastern cluster and YP515. Little to no L1029-B-Western outside of Germany and Poland. In South Slavs it only makes up 20 percent or so of Bulgarian M458, which is only about 60-65 percent of Bulgarian R1a, of which R1a totals only 17 percent in Bulgaria. So it gets marginally lower across the board when we are speaking of clusters.

Additionally I2a1b-Din is the chief haplogroup amongst South-Slavs. Exceeding 20-30 percent in most cases. So I2a1b/Z280 are the chief haplogroups of the Slavic Migration. However, there are select clades even in V13, and J2 that arrived with Slavs as well. So, not all V13/J2b in South Slavs is of the Balkanic variety. At least per Maciamo.

The problem with all these speculations is that every non-Balkan clade is labelled as Slavic when Slavs were simply the last barbarians to migrate to the Balkans, assuming that Celtic, Germanic, Sarmatian/Scythian tribes, etc. account to 0%.

A bit of reading on Roman history will show you how hundreds of thousands tribes from North of the Danube were settled in Pannonia and Moesia mostly.

And we're not even talking about prehistory here when Europe was not as populous and the migration of a tribe would have a huge genetic influence on every region. Another hint is the fact that the Thracian were the second most numerous peoples after the Indians. If anything, R1a-M458 could be more connected to Thracians spreading around Eastern Europe than to Slavs.

 

[Dibran]

The problem with all these speculations is that every non-Balkan clade is labelled as Slavic when Slavs were simply the last barbarians to migrate to the Balkans, assuming that Celtic, Germanic, Sarmatian/Scythian tribes, etc. account to 0%.

A bit of reading on Roman history will show you how hundreds of thousands tribes from North of the Danube were settled in Pannonia and Moesia mostly.

And we're not even talking about prehistory here when Europe was not as populous and the migration of a tribe would have a huge genetic influence on every region. Another hint is the fact that the Thracian were the second most numerous peoples after the Indians. If anything, R1a-M458 could be more connected to Thracians spreading around Eastern Europe than to Slavs.

I agree M458 spread with many north and eastern tribes. However I do not think M458 has with Thracians. Things could change in the future though. We still have no ancient DNA for M458 though. So anything is possible. M458 formed 3200BC, so I imagine some basal clades may have had an occurrence. However today most people belonging to M458 belong further downstream to clades only between 2000-1000 years old. Additionally M458 is more prevelant in Central Europe. It may have moved with East Germanics as early as the Bastarnae. In this case it could explain earlier arrivals to Macedonia during the rule of King Phillip. However, most L1029 in the Balkans is under YP417, and YP417 itself is only to 2000ypb. However no one under YP417 outside Poland/Belarus are basal YP417 but clades younger dating to only the middle ages.

M458 is most probably due to East Germanic/Proto-Slavic/and possibly Sarmatian tribes. Hopefully ancient DNA surfaces soon.

 

[Sticazzi]

I agree M458 spread with many north and eastern tribes. However I do not think M458 has with Thracians. Things could change in the future though. We still have no ancient DNA for M458 though. So anything is possible. M458 formed 3200BC, so I imagine some basal clades may have had an occurrence. However today most people belonging to M458 belong further downstream to clades only between 2000-1000 years old. Additionally M458 is more prevelant in Central Europe. It may have moved with East Germanics as early as the Bastarnae. In this case it could explain earlier arrivals to Macedonia during the rule of King Phillip. However, most L1029 in the Balkans is under YP417, and YP417 itself is only to 2000ypb. However no one under YP417 outside Poland/Belarus are basal YP417 but clades younger dating to only the middle ages.

M458 is most probably due to East Germanic/Proto-Slavic/and possibly Sarmatian tribes. Hopefully ancient DNA surfaces soon.

I didn't assume it's Thracian but all possibilities should be considered. Slavs were the least attested tribes in Europe yet history taught us that it doesn't take the biggest and strongest to end up spreading and assimilating others the most.

Just for the sake of argument, Sarmatians were settled in Pannonia and used as cataphractari cavalry called Alae Pannoniorum and Gallorum. Considering how it takes a single ancestor 2000 years ago to have produced millions of descendants by now, every theory based on maps of current spread is a waste of time although many are still logical.

But this issue with Slavs apparently having exclusivity on all R1a (besides the Baltic clades) and I2-P37 IMO is a big stretch. The Goths, Huns, Alans, etc. were just a confederation of tribes of very often included especially man Dacians, and even Thracians and Illyrians who weren't happy with Roman rule.

 

[Dibran]

I didn't assume it's Thracian but all possibilities should be considered. Slavs were the least attested tribes in Europe yet history taught us that it doesn't take the biggest and strongest to end up spreading and assimilating others the most.

Just for the sake of argument, Sarmatians were settled in Pannonia and used as cataphractari cavalry called Alae Pannoniorum and Gallorum. Considering how it takes a single ancestor 2000 years ago to have produced millions of descendants by now, every theory based on maps of current spread is a waste of time although many are still logical.
But this issue with Slavs apparently having exclusivity on all R1a (besides the Baltic clades) and I2-P37 IMO is a big stretch. The Goths, Huns, Alans, etc. were just a confederation of tribes of very often included especially man Dacians, and even Thracians and Illyrians who weren't happy with Roman rule.

I don’t think it’s all exclusively Slavic. Of course not. For instance there is a clade under I2a1b i think called I-A2512 or something, that is only found in greeks and East European Jews. This clade having a common ancestor between 2000-2200ypb. So this clade could have moved with Bastarnae. However most south Slavs belong predominantly to younger clades. PH908 being very common cluster in majority of Balkan I2a1b with clades of 900-1100ypb. So In such cases only Middle age Slavic expansion makes sense.

Sarmatians are definitely possible as you say. Maybe even Dacians. Considering the ethnogenesis of Slavs occurred between Romania and Ukraine it’s definitely possible some of them were Dacians originally before moving to the rest of the Balkans with the migration waves.

Thracians seem less likely. The only R1a found in an ancient Thracian remain was Z93, which branches off from the rest of Z93 in the ancient past. However no one belongs to that Thracian Z93 cluster today as of yet.

M458 is found in North and South Caucasus in basal amounts upwards of 20 percent. So perhaps some m458 and clades came with Pannonian Avars Alan’s and Goths. Including some clusters of Z280.

However most occurrences so far are typically downstream young clades. I am l1029 for instance however negative for all downstream clades. My common ancestor with other L1029 is between 300BC and 0AD. I also belong to B-Western Cluster which is most prominent in Germany and Poland. In the Balkans it reaches minimal amounts in Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia, Greece and now Albania.

I also belong to an albanian founder effect. So far on 3 Albanians are part of this cluster including myself. So I hypothesize possibility a Germanized Proto-Balt or Proto-Slav that arrived as a Goth. Or in a rare case if it came earlier as a Bastarnae. Most L1029 in the Balkans tends to fall into B-Eastern Cluster which is YP417 and downstream clades.

There’s also some debate on whether Veneti in the Vistula were actually Slavs or Proto Balts. Considering Tacitus references them in 69AD long before the Slavs arrived there. Casting doubt on the notion Veneti arrived in 500AD. The Slavic ethhnogeneis May have occurred with the Kiev Culture. In which case some clades of M458/Z280 May have been assimilated with their rapid expansion.

 

[Joey37]

Very interesting. I am L-1029 and YP-445 downstream; that has only been found in two samples from what I've seen, one an Englishman born in 1776 and the other a Flemish man living in the 1600s, at any rate mine is from Germany.

 

[Dibran]

Very interesting. I am L-1029 and YP-445 downstream; that has only been found in two samples from what I've seen, one an Englishman born in 1776 and the other a Flemish man living in the 1600s, at any rate mine is from Germany.

could be a Germanized proto-Balt or Proto-Slav that either moves with Saxons or assimilated Polabian Slav on coastal Scandinavia that moved with the Viking horde to the British Isles. So far most all L1029 that appear to have British and Germans probably moved with Saxons and Vikings. Vikings had many Slavic pirates in their ranks. Depending on the cluster age and matches it could have been assimilated in Scandinavia and moved with Vikings or not. Or it could have been assimilated into Saxons during their eastward expansion/trade.