Where can North Africans pass in Europe?

[Drac II]

Also Important to note is the Skull [Cephalic] Index;
Berbers and Arabs [Mediterranean/Orientalid (Caucasoid) sub-race] are extremely Dolichocephalic

William Z. Ripley - plates (Berbers from Tunis) - Medit./Orientalid - skull index 69' & 72'

The usual mistaken assumptions, manipulations and careful selection of what to quote.

Nordics are also strongly dolichocephalic. I guess that makes them similar-looking to North Africans? Hmmm... No, don't think so. Craniometrics is one thing, phenotype/pigmentation another one altogether. Having similar skull shapes does not mean you will look alike. Phenotype and pigmentation are much more complex than that and also depend on such things as diet, sexual selection and climatic adaptation.


"Orientalids", you say? Funny, because hardly any serious anthropologist sees any "Orientalids" in Spain (you carefully chose one of the few, and even he places the majority of them in Portugal), they keep pointing out that the majority of Spain is "classic", "Western" and/or "Atlanto" Mediterraneans. The racial type who fits the Near Eastern/Oriental facial & nasal traits description so well that such features even form part of its very definition are in fact the Dinarics, which are not common in Spain but in Italy:


Dinaric: A tall, brachycephalic type of intermediate pigmentation, usually planoccipital, and showing the facial and nasal prominence of Near Eastern peoples. The basic population of the whole Dinaric-Alpine highlands from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians and Caucasus, as well as Syria and Asia Minor.


Which is probably partly a remnant of the large Near Eastern slave and immigrant population in Roman Italy.

Dinaric plates:

\

 

[Nobody1]

"Orientalids", you say? Funny, because hardly any serious anthropologist sees any "Orientalids" in Spain (you carefully chose one of the few, and even he places the majority of them in Portugal), they keep pointing out that the majority of Spain is "classic", "Western" and/or "Atlanto" Mediterraneans. The racial type who fits the Near Eastern/Oriental facial & nasal traits description so well that such features even form part of its very definition are in fact the Dinarics, which are not common in Spain but in Italy:

Coon -
The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs.
Spaniards measured in Madrid have head dimensions comparable to those of Yemenite Arabs, Oriental Jews, and Kabyles.


Funny, the Western or Atlanto-Mediterranean type is mostly ascribed to Mediterranid North Italians - not Spaniards;

Coon -
among the northern Italians the most important dolichocephalic strain is the Atlanto-Mediterranean.

Piedmont - North Italy / Atlanto-Mediterranean - Coon plates

Coon - Races of Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/racesofeurope.htm

Dinaric: A tall, brachycephalic type of intermediate pigmentation, usually planoccipital, and showing the facial and nasal prominence of Near Eastern peoples. The basic population of the whole Dinaric-Alpine highlands from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians and Caucasus, as well as Syria and Asia Minor.

Yes, the Dinaric (Caucasoid) sub-race ranges all across Europe;
from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians - and all the way through Anatolia and Syria;
But what does that have to do with North Africa?

---

Apart from all of that; where do i even associate anything with Spain in post #155 or post #146;
Is your paranoia getting the best of you again;

 

[Drac II]

Coon -
The Spaniards are more like the most marginal and fully sedentary of the brunet Berber groups in North Africa than like the more recently settled transhumant ones or the Arabs.
Spaniards measured in Madrid have head dimensions comparable to those of Yemenite Arabs, Oriental Jews, and Kabyles.

Once again, craniometrics. Not phenotype/pigmentation. "Alpines" are often called "Asiatic" in the literature because they are brachycephalic. Does that mean they look "Asiatic"?

Funny, the Western or Atlanto-Mediterranean type is mostly ascribed to Mediterranid North Italians - not Spaniards;

Coon -
among the northern Italians the most important dolichocephalic strain is the Atlanto-Mediterranean.

Piedmont - North Italy / Atlanto-Mediterranean - Coon plates

Coon - Races of Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/racesofeurope.htm

Funny, because Coon also assigns this same "Atlanto-Mediterranean" race to the majority of North Africa:

Atlanto-Mediterranean: The tall, straight-nosed Mediterranean, not mesocephalic, as Deniker erroneously stated, but strongly dolichocephalic. Today this race forms the principal element in the population of North Africa, and is strong in Iraq, Palestine, parts of Arabia, and the eastern Balkans;

I guess that such a simplistic (and generally erroneous) view of craniometrics/phenotype/pigmentation settles the question of this poll once and for all: North Italy is indeed the place in Europe where North Africans can generally pass

Yes, the Dinaric (Caucasoid) sub-race ranges all across Europe;
from Switzerland to Epirus, also in the Carpathians - and all the way through Anatolia and Syria;
But what does that have to do with North Africa?

As much as "Orientalids" (a Near Eastern type) have to do with it.

 

[Nobody1]

Once again, craniometrics. Not phenotype/pigmentation. "Alpines" are often called "Asiatic" in the literature because they are brachycephalic. Does that mean they look "Asiatic"?

Asiatic as in Altaic/Mongoloid - No
Asiatic strain as in Uralic/Lappanoid - Yes

Funny, because Coon also assigns this same "Atlanto-Mediterranean" race to the majority of North Africa: Atlanto-Mediterranean: The tall, straight-nosed Mediterranean, not mesocephalic, as Deniker erroneously stated, but strongly dolichocephalic. Today this race forms the principal element in the population of North Africa, and is strong in Iraq, Palestine, parts of Arabia, and the eastern Balkans;

Exactly;
The entire Merditerranean (Caucasoid) sub-race is in fact (big surprise) all around the Mediterranean;
South Europe, North Africa, Near East;

That includes also the Atlantic types as well as the Orientalid types;

And the Medit.-Atlantic type as well as the similar Medit.-Pontic type is also all across Central and East Europe;

(from an older post)
N. Cheboksarov - Indiana University: issues 17-19 (1961)
The Atlantic type, widely spread in Central Europe, in the morphological sense is transitional between the mesocephlas of Southern and Northern Europe; that is, between the Mediterranean in the narrow sense of the word and the northern races. The relatively dark pigmentation brings the representatives of the Atlantic type close to the Mediterranean elements of Spain and southern Italy; the greater stature relates them to the Nordics of Scandinavia. But this kind of link likewise exists in Eastern Europe: here it is known under the name of “Eastern Great-Russian” (Chepurkovsky) or “North-Pontic” complex (Bunak), which prevails among the Russians of the Kuybyshev and Voronezh districts, and also among the Mordvi-Mokshi.

 

[Carlos]

I think as a group they can pass nowhere. As singles, they can maybe pass in Spain, especially in southern Spain. But only the more mediterranean ones.

Southern Spain Southern Spain ohhhh, look you take someone from southern Spain, north of Spain in central Spain east and west and you would not know that from where is everyone


What about southern Spain?


All that happens is that we are looking and we look like ourselves.

 

[errantbit]

Italy.At first sight you may not notice it,but you get to see a lot of people with african traits there.For example:Samuele Riva (milanese top model)

 

[Kardu]

Samuele Riva looks like North African?! Have ever met a real North African?

 

[errantbit]

Does he looks more european than african to you?

 

[Nobody1]

Does he looks more european than african to you?

Africans that look like Samuele Riva are def. very European looking - being of the Caucasoid races

Samuele Riva is very South European - Medit./Dinaric with minor Noric/Nordid strain

There are a lot of Africans that look like him because there are a lot of Caucasoid races in Africa - especially in the North;

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians

 

[errantbit]

i guess you don't know many europeans. and you are making no favour to yourself by quoting someone like madison grant to support your point. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/274146?uid=3737952&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102733502683

 

[errantbit]

I refuse to belive i'm the only one who notice this guy have clear sub-saharian traits (look at his mouth and nose).Shouldn't be a surprise as many black slaves were brought to the italic peninsula for centuries at the times of roman empire.It's not that unusual to see people like him in Italy.

 

[Yaan]

Some North Africans(the one without Arab blood,called Berbers) can sometimes,really rare pass in most of South and South East Europe, but ofc here we speak about a very tiny minority. And again I see us Bulgarians here, so we can pass as Africans, Turks, Levant etc. Some people here need to grow up and learn about nations, at least the nations in Europe. On general Bulgarians have as much to do with North Africans as Dutch have to do with North Africans,as with Levant similarity is overrated in Internet. The only non European people with which we can say we Bulgarians share are the Turks, and then only with some and then for the same reason some Swedish share with White Americans.
I will kindly ask Americans, Iberians and West Europeans to stop use the word Bulgarians because u have either not seen one or u have seen the Gypsies. I do not base my opinion of Americans based on Black or of Iberians based on Arabs, so u should have the manhood to do the same. There are no Bulgarian posters here so mambo jambo was tolerated but now I am here!

 

[Kardu]

errantbit Berbers have Vandal blood. And I live in Europe for the last 20 years.

 

[Nobody1]

errantbit Berbers have Vandal blood. And I live in Europe for the last 20 years.

Of course they have Vandal blood they also have Greco-Roman blood;

But the Berbers themselves are of the Caucsoid races (mostly Mediterranid);
Berbers are known as Libyans in ancient sources;

 

[Nobody1]

i guess you don't know many europeans. and you are making no favour to yourself by quoting someone like madison grant to support your point. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/274146?uid=3737952&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102733502683

Those are just false assumptions in both cases;

And i personally do not know of any Ancient Historian that recorded so called Blacks (Sub-Saharans) to be enslaved by the Romans; Which is strange since most Ancient Historians talk a lot about Slaves and their origins - like Gauls, Carthage, Epirus, Celt-Iberians or that Spartacus was Thracian;

Heres a good link for you;

W. Scheidel - Stanford Uni. 2007
http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf

Black slaves from Somalia were very rare; and the Roman Empire was not just the Italic peninsula;

If you want to look at Black slaves in Europe than look no further than Iberia and the Atlantic-Slave trade;
But even this didnt 'greatly' alter the modern Anthropology;

Carleton Coon -
Negroid blood, introduced into Portugal through the medium of freed slaves, has largely been absorbed. The liberated negroes settled mostly in the cities, where negroes from the Portuguese colonies are still to be seen in some numbers. The liberality of the Portuguese social attitude toward persons of different race has prevented the retention, as in Arabia and the United States, of a stigmatized negroid class. On the whole, the absorption of negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial position of the country.

 

[Angela]

After reviewing all the pertinent anthropological sources, and giving the matter much thought, it is my considered opinion that the traits most exhibited by Samuele Riva are...HOT-OID.

 

[Nobody1]

i guess you don't know many europeans. and you are making no favour to yourself by quoting someone like madison grant to support your point. http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/274146?uid=3737952&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21102733502683

Those are just false assumptions in both cases;

And i personally do not know of any Ancient Historian that recorded so called Blacks (Sub-Saharans) to be enslaved by the Romans; Which is strange since most Ancient Historians talk a lot about Slaves and their origins - like Gauls, Carthage, Epirus, Celt-Iberians or that Spartacus was Thracian;

Heres a good link for you;

W. Scheidel - Stanford Uni. 2007
http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf

Black slaves from Somalia were very rare; and the Roman Empire was not just the Italic peninsula;

If you want to look at Black slaves in Europe than look no further than Iberia and the Atlantic-Slave trade;
But even this didnt 'greatly' alter the modern Anthropology;

Carleton Coon -
Negroid blood, introduced into Portugal through the medium of freed slaves, has largely been absorbed. The liberated negroes settled mostly in the cities, where negroes from the Portuguese colonies are still to be seen in some numbers. The liberality of the Portuguese social attitude toward persons of different race has prevented the retention, as in Arabia and the United States, of a stigmatized negroid class. On the whole, the absorption of negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial position of the country.

 

[Nobody1]

After reviewing all the pertinent anthropological sources, and giving the matter much thought, it is my considered opinion that the traits most exhibited by Samuele Riva are...HOT-OID.

Your not being objective;

 

[errantbit]

Those are just false assumptions in both cases;And i personally do not know of any Ancient Historian that recorded so called Blacks (Sub-Saharans) to be enslaved by the Romans; Which is strange since most Ancient Historians talk a lot about Slaves and their origins - like Gauls, Carthage, Epirus, Celt-Iberians or that Spartacus was Thracian;Heres a good link for you;W. Scheidel - Stanford Uni. 2007http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdfBlack slaves from Somalia were very rare; and the Roman Empire was not just the Italic peninsula;If you want to look at Black slaves in Europe than look no further than Iberia and the Atlantic-Slave trade;But even this didnt 'greatly' alter the modern Anthropology;Carleton Coon - Negroid blood, introduced into Portugal through the medium of freed slaves, has largely been absorbed. The liberated negroes settled mostly in the cities, where negroes from the Portuguese colonies are still to be seen in some numbers. The liberality of the Portuguese social attitude toward persons of different race has prevented the retention, as in Arabia and the United States, of a stigmatized negroid class. On the whole, the absorption of negroes by the Portuguese has had no appreciable effect on the racial position of the country.

Thanks for the link but your source doesn't dispute anything i said.

http://www.ucd.ie/cai/classics-ireland/1996/Madden96.html

Then again anyone with eyes can see that Samuele Riva has clear sub-saharian traits.I don't see the point in denying such evidence.

 

[Angela]

Sadly, my attempt at irony and humor seems to have failed...

My point was that in the real world this would have been a ridiculous discussion...all anyone would see is a good looking man.

As to bias...I admit it...I am extremely biased in favor of attractive people...it's very shallow of me, but there it is. :ashamed2:

Seriously, you don't have to be an Italian woman to find Italian men...Mediterranean looking men in general, attractive. Trust me, it's quite common.