Thread: E-V13 Frequency Maps and Data

The earliest Urnfield zone is basically identical to Cotofeni into Eastern Otomani-Wietenberg into Gáva:

Proto Urnfield core was further north around Hungary/Slovakia/Poland. That has already been established.
Lusatians were just a subset of Urnfielders. Basically all groups of Urnfielders were dominated by Tumulus culture derived R-L51, with 2-3 main exceptions in the East: Lusatians (I2), Kyjatice (probably J2a) and Gáva (E-V13):


This map is not entirely correct, as the Illyrian core zone (basically much of former Yugoslavia) was never fully covered by any sort of Urnfield group, even though some splinters moved in.



Based on Tollense battle the Lusatians were the Urnfielders as it was clearly an orchestrated mass scale attack on the locals, it wasn't a random conflict between 2 small tribes. The Lusatians/Urnfielders travelled to North Germany for conquest, Denmark/North Germany at the time was very much part of the Tumulus culture -

Tumulus is not Urnfield, it was a culture that was destroyed in many places by the Urnfielders - Tollense, Mycenae, North Italy etc. On your map up there you can see where the most fortified sites are, that is where Urnfield emerged from.

Western Urnfield regions during iron age would have been dominated by R-L51 as these people were not completely replaced by the Urnfield elites, they accepted the Urnfield culture and left Tumulus culture behind. Some parts of Europe did not convert to Urnfield - Tumulus remained in western Balkans (illyrians), and parts of Western Europe.
Last edited:
If the Urnfielders would have been all I2 and replaced the Tumulus culture predecessors of the Middle Danubian and other Urnfielders, we would see way more I2 afterwards, but apparently, that's not the case. In all areas in which Tumulus culture transitions to Urnfield culture, R-L51 remains the dominant haplogroup.
If the Urnfielders would have been all I2 and replaced the Tumulus culture predecessors of the Middle Danubian and other Urnfielders, we would see way more I2 afterwards, but apparently, that's not the case. In all areas in which Tumulus culture transitions to Urnfield culture, R-L51 remains the dominant haplogroup.

How can they replace all the R-L51? Do you understand how conquest works? A lot of these I2 men would have died and they would have taken locals in for man power. The Romans did the same.

This wasn't a case of replacing the locals, it may have been a case of imposing their own cultural/religious ideology or a case of benefiting from ruling over other people (trade, slavery etc).
We don't even need to look at genetics here to understand where Urnfield started, look at all those fortified settlements in central/east Europe. It will be great when we get more ancient DNA but either way we can already see where Urnfield emerged. Also, if you look at i2 lineages they aren't rare in central Europe, even Germans have a lot of i2b which may have been a major branch of the Urnfielders, Epirus (south Albanians, north Greeks) and Romanians also have some -

Maybe Dorians and Thracians did have something to do with Urnfield after all - let's wait for ancient DNA. Right now we cannot rule out these just being founder effects from Ostrogoths as we have nothing to work with.


  • Haplogroup-I2b-Eupedia.gif
    73 KB · Views: 72
Last edited:
A recent post of mine from Genarchivist:

I think that this branch, E-S19341, exemplifies the likely Vekerzug/Dacian association of many branches of E-L241 and E-FGC11457 in partciular and E-S2979 in general quite well.

The first branching event is 500 BC, with two Hungarian branches of that age being rare by itself. So we have a deeply rooted presence, presumably, in the vicinity of (rather Eastern) Hungary. But on top of that, the downstream branches split between Armenian and French. Basically the two extremes of the regular, relatively higher frequency distribution.

Now a similar pattern can be observed for many, many branches, with wide ranging splits in the Late Tene to Dacian/Early Roman era period. In my opinion, this clearly points to many E-V13 branches, especially those under E-S2979 being present in the Vekerzug Scythianised culture of the Carpathian basin, especially the Eastern Sanislau group, which was mostly Late Gáva-Mezocsat-Basarabi derived and used strict cremation. Sometimes the unique combination of horse burials with human cremation burials and Scythianised weaponry.
The timing for many branches under E-S2979 fits perfectly with that scenario, including backflow both the Central European La Tene zone and the steppe at the roughly about the same time. E-L241 and E-FGC11457 are, not by chance, also the most common haplogroups of E-V13 in, mostly Western and Northern, China, because of that backflow to the steppe.

These splits between Western (Germany, France, England etc.) and Eastern (Armenia, Azerbeijan, China etc.) in the Vekerzug into La Tene to Early Roman period are quite characteristic.

Here is a sketchy map to illustrate the pattern:


While France and Switzerland are well-represented for E-S2979, it is clear that the majority of the population stayed in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere up to the Roman period. Presumably with a centre in the Tisza region and playing a crucial part in the formation of the historical Dacian people.

I think that the bulk of the branches especially of E-L241 and E-FGC11457 moved deeper down, South into the Balkans fairly late, in the Roman and migration period era. But I wouldn't exclude earlier South migrations especially in the context of the closely related Ferigile group, often associated with the Triballi, either. Vekerzug and Ferigile group seem to have been close to each other, both genetically in origin and in the way they adopted Scythianised customs.
Therefore its entirely possible that there were some sort of shared genetics, including patrilineages, between the Ferigile group (Triballi) and the Eastern Vekerzug (Sanislau group) at the Upper Tisza, as well as the Kustanovice group further North.

Continuing from the last post, about the Vekerzug-Dacian origin and spread of E-S2979, in particular E-L241 and E-FGC11457, which being both covered by the FF assignment. Therefore I looked up the relative frequency of these two branches in various countries relative to E-V13 as a whole. Of course, the total frequency of these two branches should be still higher, since we have a lot of people under E-V13 which simply tested not far enough. But for a relative comparison of various countries it should suffice.

E-V13    58    E-L241    10    17,24137931
E-V13    58    E-FGC11457    5    8,620689655
E-V13    58    E-L241    7    12,06896552
E-V13    58    E-FGC11457    7    12,06896552
E-V13    107    E-L241    7    6,542056075
E-V13    107    E-FGC11457    8    7,476635514
E-V13    74    E-L241    9    12,16216216
E-V13    74    E-FGC11457    8    10,81081081
E-V13    134    E-L241    9    6,71641791
E-V13    134    E-FGC11457    7    5,223880597
E-V13    26    E-L241    4    15,38461538
E-V13    26    E-FGC11457    3    11,53846154
E-V13    518    E-L241    40    7,722007722
E-V13    518    E-FGC11457    51    9,845559846
E-V13    118    E-L241    10    8,474576271
E-V13    118    E-FGC11457    20    16,94915254
E-V13    88    E-L241    2    2,272727273
E-V13    88    E-FGC11457    19    21,59090909
E-V13    23    E-L241    2    8,695652174
E-V13    23    E-FGC11457    4    17,39130435
E-V13    370    E-L241    37    10
E-V13    370    E-FGC11457    40    10,81081081
E-V13    246    E-L241    7    2,845528455
E-V13    246    E-FGC11457    21    8,536585366
E-V13    54    E-L241    3    5,555555556
E-V13    54    E-FGC11457    4    7,407407407
E-V13    45    E-L241    4    8,888888889
E-V13    45    E-FGC11457    9    20
E-V13    30    E-L241    2    6,666666667
E-V13    30    E-FGC11457    2    6,666666667
E-V13    27    E-L241    1    3,703703704
E-V13    27    E-FGC11457    1    3,703703704
E-V13    13    E-L241    1    7,692307692
E-V13    13    E-FGC11457    2    15,38461538
E-V13    28    E-L241    0    0
E-V13    28    E-FGC11457    6    21,42857143
E-V13    40    E-L241    4    10
E-V13    40    E-FGC11457    3    7,5
E-V13    24    E-L241    1    4,166666667
E-V13    24    E-FGC11457    0    0
E-V13    83    E-L241    1    1,204819277
E-V13    83    E-FGC11457    13    15,6626506

The lowest numbers are from Montenegro (sample very small), Turkey, France, Italy, Spain, Croatia and Bulgaria. The big exception for a Northern country is Ireland.

My suspicion is that this is because of the Roman era redistribution of more (South) Thracian lineages within the Roman Empire around the Mediterranean sea. The numbers would be even more clear, without the more recent (Late Antiquity, Medieval and modern) migrations from the core zones of the North Thracians/Dacians into these countries, which took place as well.
Like a significant portion of the French branch members has a recent German ethnic background, even if ignoring Late Antiquity-Medieval Frankish movements.

If we assume a continental route, especially from Vekerzug and La Tene backflow, to the West and East (China), we see that e.g. England is on the continental, not the Roman Mediterranean route too, by comparison with the Mediterranean states. Germany as well, because in Germany one of the main reasons for the slight decrease is E-L540/E-S3003. If accounting for E-L540 in the North-Central European countries (like DE, SWE, CZ, PL etc.), which has a clearly continental Germano-Slavic spread, the impact of S2979/the continental route becomes even more pronounced. This is especially true for Sweden, in which E-L540 is relatively common.

Therefore I think we can see here, in the modern data, a clear separation of two routes of expansion: One Greco-Roman, through the Mediterranean sea, and one presumably along the Alpine-Danube paths. Even if the latter would have been to some degree happening in the Roman era as well, the centre of gravity would have been different and the source population (Vekerzug, Dacian!) too.

That countries like Turkey have the lowest number of L241/ FGC11457 is, most likely, due to the fact that they got most of their E-V13 branches from South Thracians and during the earlier centuries of the Greco-Roman periods in Antiquity. And that's despite some Medieval/early modern small scale migrations from the Balkans into Turkey! WIthout those, two of the main Northern branches of E-V13 would be practically absent from Anatolia.

Note: Sample sizes below 100 are still too volatile and can be influenced by single surname projects or the like. Fairly recent founder events can have a big impact too, most notably in Albanians.
Last edited:
I made a corresponding map which shows which countries are above and below 15 % for E-L241 & E-FGC11457 combined, within the regional E-V13 population:


Interestingly the result is even more striking than with the E-Z5018 ratio. Basically, the low ratio territory for E-L241 & E-FGC11457 mimics the Roman Empire, with two notable exceptions:
- Ireland in the North, with a low ratio
- the Central Balkans down to Greece with a high ratio.

Within Albania and down to Greece, the ratio decreases from North to South, rather. The Central Balkan to Greece exception is in my opinion very clearly the result of a fairly recent resettlement and migration from the Danubian area/Carpathians-Northern Balkans to the South, followed by regional founder events.

Ireland is harder to explain, but its probably because Ireland was less affected by the Anglo-Saxon and Frankish-German settlement than England and the other UK countries. Incidently, the only other really borderline country for the ratio is Wales, which makes it just barely above 15 %.
Therefore we deal with a Celtic-Roman lower ratio for E-L241 & E-FGC11457, overall. But Ireland sticks out with just 7,7 %, which is about as low as Turkey!

In any case, I consider it truly remarkable, how clear the differentiation between the South Thracian dominated and the North Thracian dominated spread of E-V13 is, if looking at just these two branches of E-L241 & E-FGC11457. All Western Romance speaking countries are very clearly below the level of the Germanic, Slavic and Finno-Ugric countries, the pattern is absolutely striking and not determined by the absolute numbers of E-V13 as a whole at all. If taking E-L540 into account, the difference would be even more striking.
Another map to better illustrate the pattern, a rough sketch of the borderline for the ratio gap for E-L241 & E-FGC11457 plus a direct comparison with the largest extent of the Roman Empire. The Central Balkan into Greece exception looks clearly like a later breakthrough scenario, starting from somewhere between Hungary-Romania-Serbia and moving down. This exemplifies the difference between North Thracian (Dacian) and South Thracian (Thrace in the narrower sense) tribes also. The borderline is pretty obvious. All areas with a stronger Roman era continuity have a low ratio, with the notable exception of the Central Balkans to Greece breakthrough.


I was most surprised by the very clear pattern for Iberia, because my initial reason to test this was to look how many of the North Thracian/Dacian lineages made it to Iberia, since I thought that the Goths and Suebi would have picked up a lot of the Northern E-L241 & E-FGC11457. But apparently, that wasn't the case, the rates for Spain and Portugal are fairly low. For Spain not as low as Turkey or Ireland, but closer to France, so there was such a movement, definitely, but it was by far smaller than I initially thought. This speaks for much of Iberias E-V13 having a different source than the classical North Thracian/Dacian groups.

It is not like countries like Ireland and Italy had no contribution from the Northern branches too, but relatively less, than the high ratio countries, which simply suggests different sources and migrations of E-V13, going by that pattern, to some degree associated with the Roman Empire, especially the earlier Roman Empire.
Last edited:

Additional E-v13 in the late ancient-early medieval site in East Croatia.
Half of sample is E-v13.
I'm E-V13 from Serbia, but my ancestry is from Montenegro. The most numerous clan in Montenegro are Vasojević, and all the people who had tested have the same E-V13 subclade as I do.

Also,nother clan called Kuči carries the same haplogroup, but a subclade that's some 60 generations away.

The Vasojevići and Kuči are probably over 35% of people in Montenegro.
I'm E-V13 from Serbia, but my ancestry is from Montenegro. The most numerous clan in Montenegro are Vasojević, and all the people who had tested have the same E-V13 subclade as I do.

Also,nother clan called Kuči carries the same haplogroup, but a subclade that's some 60 generations away.

The Vasojevići and Kuči are probably over 35% of people in Montenegro.
What specific subclade do vasojevic and kuci have

This thread has been viewed 49654 times.