Proto-Afro Asiatic developed in the late Mesolitich, so it's comparable with the spread of the basal Eurasian component.

ENF is a real component, and it includes Basal Eurasian.

Oldest estimates for Proto Afro_Asiatic are 8000 BC. Neolithicum started in Western Asia by 10000 BC. Since when is 8000BC late mesolithic? Let alone the expansion of Afro_Asiatic speakers into the Levant was allot later by late Neolithic. how can Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers be the source for Basal Eurasian if they didn't even existed yet?


ENF is not a real component. Could you please give me a scientific paper using ENF as a component?

It doesn't matter if Ötzi or Remedello are from Copper and Bronze Age if those Guys are obviously descend of farmers since they have a farmer signature.
So stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.
 
I don't know what ENF means on the internet anymore. Every "calculator" defines it differently. What it should mean is the autosomal signature of the first farmers in the Near East. It should be based on a sample of a farmer in the ancient Near East. End of story.

.

The ENF he speaks about is a theoretical component introduced by Eurogenes based on assumptions that EEF got all their WHG when they reached Europe and mixed with H&G. So ENF == EEF. ENF in the sense that it is a different component to EEF, doesn't exist.

Now to J*. the point is that J was only found in Neolithic cultures of Eastern Europe which are geographically closer to Western Asian. Therefore it is save to assume that individuals of new waves would reach this region earlier than any other. The lack of J in any of the other EUropean Neolithic cultures bringt me to the point that J was a mostly a second (late Neolithic/Bronze Age) wave of herders/farmers. Thats my point. If it was among the first Neolithic wave, we would see it in Neolithic Spain, Germany, France, Scandinavia and Copper Age farmer individuals from Italy.

Yet I could be all wrong and J could be representing a "East European early neolithic Haplogroup".
 
The ENF he speaks about is a theoretical component introduced by Eurogenes based on assumptions that EEF got all their WHG when they reached Europe and mixed with H&G. So ENF == EEF. ENF in the sense that it is a different component to EEF, doesn't exist.

Now to J*. the point is that J was only found in Neolithic cultures of Eastern Europe which are geographically closer to Western Asian. Therefore it is save to assume that individuals of new waves would reach this region earlier than any other. The lack of J in any of the other EUropean Neolithic cultures bringt me to the point that J was a mostly a second (late Neolithic/Bronze Age) wave of herders/farmers. Thats my point. If it was among the first Neolithic wave, we would see it in Neolithic Spain, Germany, France, Scandinavia and Copper Age farmer individuals from Italy.

Yet I could be all wrong and J could be representing a "East European early neolithic Haplogroup".

There's no way we can know at present whether all the early farmers in the Near East were like Barcin, so the statement that ENF=EEF, while it may be true based on current samples, may not in fact be the case. We'll have to wait and see. It might have been the ENF that went to Europe, however, that I'll grant, and if that is the case, that would be the standard to use in measuring how much additional WHG was picked up from foragers in Europe.

As to "J2" in Europe, I don't get this insistence that it was found in "eastern Europe". This is the location of the Sopot culture. It's just north of the Balkans, if not technically in it, and rather more to the west than to the east. It's certainly not in "Eastern Europe".
European_Late_Neolithic.gif


It most likely traversed the Balkans from south to north before reaching that area, like many other lineages before it, and as the authors of the paper seem to imply. Perhaps it came from northwest Anatolia. From the southern Balkans it may have moved on to Italy, as Cardial did before it. I will grant you that it might have taken a while to get to southern Spain, for example, although perhaps not if it took to the sea. Whether all of this happened as part of the early Neolithic and then these lineages stalled in the south or whether it was part of a second wave Neolithic I don't know, although my hunch is that it is the latter. This also has nothing to do with whether more came in the Bronze Age, as some undoubtedly did, and perhaps in larger quantities.

Unless you're implying that it came due west from the coast of the Black Sea? Even then, we don't know how quickly it spread to the west from there. How long would it have taken to get to eastern central Italy from Sopot? At some places along the Adriatic you can see to the opposite shore. There's no way of knowing until we turn up more ancient samples. We don't have a single ancient yDna sample from southern Greece or southern Italy, or southern Spain for that matter, so I don't see any evidence supporting this kind of certainty. That doesn't mean that by happenstance it might not turn out to be true, of course.
 
Oldest estimates for Proto Afro_Asiatic are 8000 BC. Neolithicum started in Western Asia by 10000 BC. Since when is 8000BC late mesolithic? Let alone the expansion of Afro_Asiatic speakers into the Levant was allot later by late Neolithic. how can Proto Afro_Asiatic speakers be the source for Basal Eurasian if they didn't even existed yet?

ENF is not a real component. Could you please give me a scientific paper using ENF as a component?

It doesn't matter if Ötzi or Remedello are from Copper and Bronze Age if those Guys are obviously descend of farmers since they have a farmer signature.
So stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Proto-Afro Asiatic started in Africa, not in Western Asia. 8000 BC is right in late mesolitich in Eastern Africa, brosky.

ENF is a real component since Lazaridis et al said that EEF is a mix of WHG and some Middle Eastern component which has basal eurasian inside of it.

Remedello and Oetzi could be from anywhere as far we know. Let's wait for more real neolitich samples.
 
I don't think Barcin people were among the first farmers to move into Europe.
I would rather expect them to be part of the 2nd wave.
Most of them moved into western Bulgaria and Roumenia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture
And I guess some of them ended up in Sopot.
Hence the J2 individuals.
 
There are no older Italian samples. Only copper Age Oetzi and 2 samples from Remedello. Sopot and Lengyel are early Neolitich cultures (7000 years old) and make a good percentage of real Neolitich samples we got so far. So it's not that J2 arrived only in late Neolithic/Bronze Age as you wish.

you do realise that the German neolithic samples are 5500BC plus which means 7500 years old , which means they are older than the spanish samples and older than sopot and lengyel samples
 
I don't think Barcin people were among the first farmers to move into Europe.
I would rather expect them to be part of the 2nd wave.
Most of them moved into western Bulgaria and Roumenia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture
And I guess some of them ended up in Sopot.
Hence the J2 individuals.

Barcin is pre-pottery Neolithic 8400 BP, or roughly 6400 BC.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0129102#pone-0129102-t001

See: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31336-Pinhasi-et-al-Ancient-dna-recovery?highlight=Barcin

Sopot is about 1500 years later, at around 4800-5000 BC. Are we talking about the same people even if the movement into the Balkans started in the same general geographic area?

The archaeologists excavating the site don't see any influence at this time from Barcin into the Balkans.
http://www.nit-istanbul.org/projects/barc-n-hoyuk-excavations
"Although its location suggests easy access to the Balkans from Anatolia, Neolithic archaeological assemblages on either side of the Marmara region do not demonstrate the expected similarity that can result from intensive social interactions."

From my other readings on the spread of the Neolithic, there was apparently movement over time from further south and east toward the northern coasts of Anatolia. Perhaps that's the ultimate source of the "second wave" that Haak saw in the changes in mtDna in central Europe in those earlier papers?

This is the abstract of a paper on another Anatolian sample, Kumteppe. That paper should be very interesting, and the genome as well. The sample is from roughly 4700 BC, and given the imprecision of datings, roughly contemporaneous with Sopot.

"Anatolia played a key role in the Eurasian Neolithisation. The expansion from this area was driven west and northwards by migration, but we know little about the actual establishing of Neolithic societies in Anatolia, and what kind of population dynamics affected their gene pool. We present the first ancient genome wide data from a 6700 year old Anatolian excavated from a late Neolithic context in Kumtepe. We show that this individual display genetic similarities to the European Neolithic genepool, which anchors the Neolithic expansion in Europe to Anatolia. Further, the Kumtepe individual does not only contain the genetic element that is frequent in early European farmers, but also a component found mainly in modern-day populations from the Near East and Caucasus, suggesting gene flow into Anatolia in the late Neolithic. The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with gene flow into Europe from or through the Neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the Neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia. This area was entangled in a complex web of contacts with other parts of the Near East, and the distribution of genetic variation in early European farmers suggests that the contacts with the European continent also remained and replenished with people's constant movements in and out of Anatolia."

So maybe these are the "second wave" people? Maybe they carried J2?
 
That is not true. The Corded Ware started in the Late Copper Age and finished in the Early Bronze Age. The Bell Beaker culture was not Indo-European originally. It was a Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic culture in direct continuity of the Megalithic cultures when it started in Iberia. R1b people invaded the Bell Beaker culture from the east and brought bronze weapons and artefacts in the Late Bell Beaker period.
Well, Central Euro bronze age started 1800-1600 bce with Unetice, when R1a and R1b was already all over the place for at least millenia.
4000 bce was the earliest branching of PIE and that had nothing to do with bronze.

Corded Ware expansion. You are right it ENDED in early bronze age, but I am not sure Scandinavian, Baltic, Fatyanovo expansions had anything to do with bronze (or even copper?). Do you have sources claiming otherwise?
After 2000 bce bronze played its role, but that is long after PIE was split in dialects.

Bell Beaker. When the first bb bronze weapons are found/dated? Is it before or after Allentoft's R1b samples?
 
Barcin is pre-pottery Neolithic 8400 BP, or roughly 6400 BC.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0129102#pone-0129102-t001

See: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31336-Pinhasi-et-al-Ancient-dna-recovery?highlight=Barcin

Sopot is about 1500 years later, at around 4800-5000 BC. Are we talking about the same people even if the movement into the Balkans started in the same general geographic area?

The archaeologists excavating the site don't see any influence at this time from Barcin into the Balkans.
http://www.nit-istanbul.org/projects/barc-n-hoyuk-excavations
"Although its location suggests easy access to the Balkans from Anatolia, Neolithic archaeological assemblages on either side of the Marmara region do not demonstrate the expected similarity that can result from intensive social interactions."

From my other readings on the spread of the Neolithic, there was apparently movement over time from further south and east toward the northern coasts of Anatolia. Perhaps that's the ultimate source of the "second wave" that Haak saw in the changes in mtDna in central Europe in those earlier papers?

This is the abstract of a paper on another Anatolian sample, Kumteppe. That paper should be very interesting, and the genome as well. The sample is from roughly 4700 BC, and given the imprecision of datings, roughly contemporaneous with Sopot.

"Anatolia played a key role in the Eurasian Neolithisation. The expansion from this area was driven west and northwards by migration, but we know little about the actual establishing of Neolithic societies in Anatolia, and what kind of population dynamics affected their gene pool. We present the first ancient genome wide data from a 6700 year old Anatolian excavated from a late Neolithic context in Kumtepe. We show that this individual display genetic similarities to the European Neolithic genepool, which anchors the Neolithic expansion in Europe to Anatolia. Further, the Kumtepe individual does not only contain the genetic element that is frequent in early European farmers, but also a component found mainly in modern-day populations from the Near East and Caucasus, suggesting gene flow into Anatolia in the late Neolithic. The scene presented by Kumtepe is compatible with gene flow into Europe from or through the Neolithic core area in Anatolia. And it is likely that this occurred early, perhaps just after the Neolithic core area had been established in southeastern Anatolia. This area was entangled in a complex web of contacts with other parts of the Near East, and the distribution of genetic variation in early European farmers suggests that the contacts with the European continent also remained and replenished with people's constant movements in and out of Anatolia."

So maybe these are the "second wave" people? Maybe they carried J2?

well yes, I meant 2nd wave may have come form NW Anatolia
and IMO Hamangia culture, west Bulgaria & Roumenia, 5250 BC is the main expression of this migration
but they may also have influenced neolithic SW Europe and hence triggered Sopot and Lengyel
and yes allthough it is the same area this was 1000+ years later than the Barcin people whose aDNA was analysed
IMO Barcin people were not ancestral to LBK and therefore there should be another explanation for the similarity in autosomal DNA
 
well yes, I meant 2nd wave may have come form NW Anatolia
and IMO Hamangia culture, west Bulgaria & Roumenia, 5250 BC is the main expression of this migration
but they may also have influenced neolithic SW Europe and hence triggered Sopot and Lengyel
and yes allthough it is the same area this was 1000+ years later than the Barcin people whose aDNA was analysed
IMO Barcin people were not ancestral to LBK and therefore there should be another explanation for the similarity in autosomal DNA

Ah, I misunderstood you then. We largely agree, except that I think the pre-pottery Neolithic people who moved along the coast of Anatolia (and into Europe) might have been pretty similar.
 
Maciamo;462742]I understand your point about Slavic I2a1b-L621. But I am nevertheless convinced that this branch of I2a also evolved from Balkanic I2a farmers, probably from the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture who later ventured into R1a territory in central Ukraine and were assimilated before later waves of R1a unfurled onto Southeast Europe.

Whether that's what happened, or whether it was a slightly different clade that was never Neolithicized, my point was that in the case of both I2a and G2a, the clades which had large expansions after the late Neolithic were those which happened to be either on the steppe or in eastern areas where they were swept up in the Indo-European migrations. I doubt those I2a and G2a people, even if their lineages started out in CT, were any longer very Neolithic farmer like. Autosomal signatures can disappear or at least greatly diminish in five or six generations. At any rate, I don't think this phenomenon had anything to do with competition during the Neolithic itself.

Anyway that doesn't change anything to the fact that I2a and G2a were found together in most Neolithic sites in Europe, and that the regions where Neolithic ancestry is the strongest today, be it in Iberia, southeast France, Switzerland, Tyrol, Italy or Greece, have a typical blend of I2a and G2a. I did not mention former Yugoslovia or the Carpathians on purpose because the origins of Dinaric or Slavic I2a is not clear enough at present.

I agree.
 
check this : http://www.pnas.org/content/110/9/3298.long

strontium isotope analysis in the Danube Gorge 8.2-7.9 ka suggests many farmers daughters prefered to marry HG fishermen in the Danube Gorge, as these HG had a better life than EEF

ultimately it was overpopulation because of neolithic population growth that ended this HG way of life

I hope we'll get some y-DNA from this period and area soon

I wonder whether this HG tribe finally went extinct or were they able to transform themselves into succesfull farmers ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
check this : http://www.pnas.org/content/110/9/3298.long

strontium isotope analysis in the Danube Gorge 8.2-7.9 ka suggests many farmers doughters prefered to marry HG fishermen in the Danube Gorge, as these HG had a better life than EEF

ultimately it was overpopulation because of neolithic population growth that ended this HG way of life

I hope we'll get some y-DNA from this period and area soon

I wonder whether this HG tribe finally went extinct or were they able to transform themselves into succesfull farmers ?
What's the conclusion? The better life leads to extinction? ;)
 
these HG had a better life than EEF as long as they had enough hunting grounds
but EEF population explosion changed all that
 
Maciamo;462742]I understand your point about Slavic I2a1b-L621. But I am nevertheless convinced that this branch of I2a also evolved from Balkanic I2a farmers, probably from the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture who later ventured into R1a territory in central Ukraine and were assimilated before later waves of R1a unfurled onto Southeast Europe.

Slavic I2a1b-L621?
Balkanic I2a farmers?
Cucuteni-Trypillian I2a1b?

Do you have any aDNA evidence to prove your wild fantasy?
 
these HG had a better life than EEF as long as they had enough hunting grounds
but EEF population explosion changed all that
How was their life better if most of their kids were dead? It was the EEF who overpopulated HGs.
 
check this : http://www.pnas.org/content/110/9/3298.long

strontium isotope analysis in the Danube Gorge 8.2-7.9 ka suggests many farmers daughters prefered to marry HG fishermen in the Danube Gorge, as these HG had a better life than EEF

ultimately it was overpopulation because of neolithic population growth that ended this HG way of life

I hope we'll get some y-DNA from this period and area soon

I wonder whether this HG tribe finally went extinct or were they able to transform themselves into succesfull farmers ?

When we talk about Hunter gatherers and Early European Farmers I like to make an analogy with more recent examples of interactions to get a clear picture to what the clash would have been like when this took place although it does not seem too clear at present how this has happened. I believe that both groups were deeply set in their ways with huge cultural differences and believes and none of them was ready to adopt the others way of life without a high degree of friction misunderstanding and general outlook. Both would have perceived the world extremely different and what was sacred and important to one was an absurdity to the other. Culture clashes entrenched with deep emotions for one reason or another would have been inevitable.

I like to compare it to some extent to what has happened with aboriginal Australians and to some extent to the American Indians when they were taken over of Europeans and their treatment and the way they were perceived is still visibly traumatic to this day and age. Assimilation is never an easy thing, so its not a matter of 'Oh hello Welcome nice to see you, how can we work together situation'. Thats not really what human nature is like and history proved it time and time again. I don't think this analogy is too far fetched (even though it can sound like it) although, the technology divide was more intense then the Neolithic, but different enough to cause the same reactions and results devastation and difficulty on many levels absorbed by anger and fear of change and the superior bullying attitude that humans are famous for on one group over another. The same scenario could have repeated itself with the arrival of the indo-Europeans migrations later.
 
When we talk about Hunter gatherers and Early European Farmers I like to make an analogy with more recent examples of interactions to get a clear picture to what the clash would have been like when this took place although it does not seem too clear at present how this has happened. I believe that both groups were deeply set in their ways with huge cultural differences and believes and none of them was ready to adopt the others way of life without a high degree of friction misunderstanding and general outlook. Both would have perceived the world extremely different and what was sacred and important to one was an absurdity to the other. Culture clashes entrenched with deep emotions for one reason or another would have been inevitable.

I like to compare it to some extent to what has happened with aboriginal Australians and to some extent to the American Indians when they were taken over of Europeans and their treatment and the way they were perceived is still visibly traumatic to this day and age. Assimilation is never an easy thing, so its not a matter of 'Oh hello Welcome nice to see you, how can we work together situation'. Thats not really what human nature is like and history proved it time and time again. I don't think this analogy is too far fetched (even though it can sound like it) although, the technology divide was more intense then the Neolithic, but different enough to cause the same reactions and results devastation and difficulty on many levels absorbed by anger and fear of change and the superior bullying attitude that humans are famous for on one group over another. The same scenario could have repeated itself with the arrival of the indo-Europeans migrations later.

for a few centuries these HG could survive and maintain there own lifestyle in the Danube Gorge (which is 134 km long) while farmers where expanding downstream and upstream
that is because the farmers couldn't exploit their technological advance in the Gorge and they had forgotten survival skills without neolithic technology
as you mention, distrust between both groups must have been huge
nevertheless farmers daughters were attracted by the HG way of life and came to live amongst them - at least, that's what it looks like
there were also trade relations between the farmers and the HG
so some of the distrust must have gone (the Vikings in Newfoundland never got that far in their relations with Paleo-Eskimo's, Inuits and Native Americans allthough trading possibilities are obvious)
I wonder whether in the end they finally got extinct or became farmers themselves
I guess some HG families became farmers despite the huge cultural gap and some other HG families maintained their traditional way of life in the Gorge and became extinct
 
for a few centuries these HG could survive and maintain there own lifestyle in the Danube Gorge (which is 134 km long) while farmers where expanding downstream and upstream

It would have taken its natural course and some tribes would have survived longer in their way of life (like what happened in both Australian and America and in other more isolated locations world wide, all depending on geographical and economical situation which could permit it.

nevertheless farmers daughters were attracted by the HG way of life and came to live amongst them - at least, that's what it looks like
there were also trade relations between the farmers and the HG
so some of the distrust must have gone (the Vikings in Newfoundland never got that far in their relations with Paleo-Eskimo's, Inuits and Native Americans allthough trading possibilities are obvious)
I wonder whether in the end they finally got extinct or became farmers themselves
I guess some HG families became farmers despite the huge cultural gap and some other HG families maintained their traditional way of life in the Gorge and became extinct

It would be all an evolution with different scenarios in different locations evolving over a period of hundreds of years. In all groups one would find the ultra nationalists who are not willing to change anything and if you do seems like its an insult to their forefather and would even remain so even if they starve to death.You get moderates and progressives....meaning people that are willing to learn from others and adopt best practices without much emotion and feeling of doom.

Our present traits would be similar ancient humans its just they did not term everything like we do today. Tribe leaders had a lot to do with how much they would have the willingness to preserve their way of life or moved forward and their perception of things influencing the people that followed. It all happens very gradual and people (of the same stock) in different areas would adopt lifestyles and economies that people in other areas would not accept simply because their overall experiences would be different. The world is going through a similar situation at present but on global level and not just regional. It will be two steps forward and one backwards, but its an ever evolving process.
 
for a few centuries these HG could survive and maintain there own lifestyle in the Danube Gorge (which is 134 km long) while farmers where expanding downstream and upstream
that is because the farmers couldn't exploit their technological advance in the Gorge and they had forgotten survival skills without neolithic technology
as you mention, distrust between both groups must have been huge
nevertheless farmers daughters were attracted by the HG way of life and came to live amongst them - at least, that's what it looks like
there were also trade relations between the farmers and the HG
so some of the distrust must have gone (the Vikings in Newfoundland never got that far in their relations with Paleo-Eskimo's, Inuits and Native Americans allthough trading possibilities are obvious)
I wonder whether in the end they finally got extinct or became farmers themselves
I guess some HG families became farmers despite the huge cultural gap and some other HG families maintained their traditional way of life in the Gorge and became extinct
I agree for most, except the highlighted part. Farmers could have traded their daughters for some services and alliances. Very often HGs lacking women, because of high mortality in small tribes, they need to "outsource" them. HGs are also known to steal women from other tribes or farmers. I doubt farmer women are ever attracted to HGs lifestyle. Though, they might have been attracted to handsome warriors of HG type, in romantic and sexual sens.
 

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