The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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real expert

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The Cycladic, the Minoan, and the Helladic (Mycenaean) cultures define the Bronze Age (BA) of Greece. Urbanism, complex social structures, craft and agricultural specialization, and the earliest forms of writing, characterize this iconic period. We sequenced six early to middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mtDNA genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turn-over. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ~50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed towards shaping present-day Greek genomes.​
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http://http://Studies : Browse : Sequence Read Archive : NCBI/NLM/NIH

Pretty surprising to find ~50% steppe ancestry in Greece (dated atca. 2,600-2,000 BC). That's a very high steppe admixture for Southern Euro standard. It’s a pity that these 2 steppe- rich admixed individuals are females, thus we don’t have Y-DNA. So, still no R1b or R1a from Ancient Greece. Anyway, It seems that we'll see relatively diverse results, from zero to considerable steppe admixture from Ancient Greece. That being said, it’s questionable that this kind of high steppe ancestry persisted to the Iron Age Greece. Besides, I always speculated based on Ancient Macedonian art, that Macedonian Greeks could turn out to be more Northern shifted than the Athenians or Spartans.​

Also,interesting:


EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians.

​
Click to expand...
 
I don't have excess to anthrogenica

But this what i see
Wierd that there is no e-v13 a haplogroup🤔

The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations - https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Traces/sra/?study=ERP121113
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...CUSSION-ONLY)&p=737492&viewfull=1#post737492\

Pta08; 2849-2621 BC; Petras; Greece; Minoan_EBA; G2a2b-L30>CTS574>CTS2488>P303>pre-L140 (PF3337+, L140-)

Kou01; 2464-2349 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; J2a1a-L26>Z6064>Z6055>Z6057>Y7013>Y7010>Y13128>Z36834

Mik15; 2890-2764 BC; Manika; Greece; Helladic_EBA; (female)

Log04; 2007-1915 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)

Log02; 1924-1831 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)

Kou03; 2832-2578 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; (female)
 
kingjohn said:
I don't have excess to anthrogenica
But this what i see
Wierd that there is no e-v13 a haplogroup������
The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations - https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Traces/sra/?study=ERP121113
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...CUSSION-ONLY)&p=737492&viewfull=1#post737492\
Pta08; 2849-2621 BC; Petras; Greece; Minoan_EBA; G2a2b-L30>CTS574>CTS2488>P303>pre-L140 (PF3337+, L140-)
Kou01; 2464-2349 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; J2a1a-L26>Z6064>Z6055>Z6057>Y7013>Y7010>Y13128>Z36834
Mik15; 2890-2764 BC; Manika; Greece; Helladic_EBA; (female)
Log04; 2007-1915 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)
Log02; 1924-1831 BC; Logkas; Greece; Helladic_MBA; (female)
Kou03; 2832-2578 BC; Koufonisi; Greece; Cycladic_EBA; (female)
Click to expand...



A user from anthrogenica has ran the samples.


​
52.6TUR_Barcin_N
45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.2 WHG

Target:Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.7289% / 0.02728924
48.6TUR_Barcin_N
33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.8TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.2 WHG
0.4 MAR_EN

Target:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
Distance: 2.3962% / 0.02396191
53.8TUR_Barcin_N
38.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 MAR_EN
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821442
75.2TUR_Barcin_N
11.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 GEO_CHG
4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 MAR_EN​



The Helladic_MBA samples don't have any CHG/Iran_N which means that they‘re very likely recent arrivals to Greece.



​
 
The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans.

What Neolithic Aegean ancestry do we have?
Is it the same as Minoan?

So steppe seems to have been trickling in while Mycenean was develloping?
Steppe may have come from the Carpathian, not directly from the steppe.


 
Lemnian and some other non-Indo-European languages were spoken in northern Greece as late as Iron Age.
 
real expert said:
A user from anthrogenica has ran the samples.


​
52.6TUR_Barcin_N
45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.2 WHG

Target:Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 2.7289% / 0.02728924
48.6TUR_Barcin_N
33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.8TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.2 WHG
0.4 MAR_EN

Target:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
Distance: 2.3962% / 0.02396191
53.8TUR_Barcin_N
38.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 MAR_EN
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821442
75.2TUR_Barcin_N
11.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4 GEO_CHG
4.2Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 MAR_EN​



The Helladic_MBA samples don't have any CHG/Iran_N which means that they‘re very likely recent arrivals to Greece.



​
Click to expand...


Interesting :smile:
I always thought the slavs are responsible
For the spread and occurence of steppe ancestery in north greece... :thinking:
This paper show it was already present in middle bronze age north greece and in huge %
 
Am I not awake yet?

Looks to me like two have tiny amounts of steppe, one has 33% and one 46%, about the amount in, say, the modern English?

So, not yet a homogenized society it seems to me.

Where is a link to the actual paper, for goodness' sakes?

Is the first sample male? What number and date?

If they're right, who was moving around in the Middle Bronze Age?
 
So, they had arrived in "Northern" Greece around 2600-2000 BC.

Where in northern Greece? How far north?

When did they arrive in the Peleponnese?

Are the samples in the paper high class or low class?

Was there after all a Doric invasion?

Or, was the fall of the Mycenaeans a revolt of people like this some few hundreds of years later? Or vice versa?

Without the paper it's impossible to make informed conclusions.
 
I don't know. I do know that there is a youtube video of one of her presentations at a conference.

If it is the same one, it's from 2015, same year as Haak et al came out, yet it's never been published. I can't find the actual written material anywhere on the internet. Did these researchers reveal their work to someone? If they didn't there's some fraud involved here. Did the researchers discover there was something wrong with the data, i.e. contamination? Was their analysis faulty. If not, why wouldn't they publish it?

Before taking this seriously, someone should put the questions to these researchers.

The entire paper, including methodology, should also be released.
 
Angela said:
I don't know. I do know that there is a youtube video of one of her presentations at a conference.

If it is the same one, it's from 2015, same year as Haak et al came out, yet it's never been published. I can't find the actual written material anywhere on the internet. Did these researchers reveal their work to someone? If they didn't there's some fraud involved here. Did the researchers discover there was something wrong with the data, i.e. contamination? Was their analysis faulty. If not, why wouldn't they publish it?

Before taking this seriously, someone should put the questions to these researchers.

The entire paper, including methodology, should also be released.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I want to see the official source of where they are obtaining these samples, like ENA. Not a pseudonymous person's dropbox.
 
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kingjohn said:
Interesting :smile:
I always thought the slavs are responsible
For the spread and occurence of steppe ancestery in north greece... :thinking:
This paper show it was already present in middle bronze age north greece and in huge %
Click to expand...

Well, the Slavic migration had definitely a genetic impact on Greece. The question is rather whether the Slavic people who entered Greece, were more Ukraine or Polish-like or more Serbian- or Bulgarian-like. IMHO, the latter seems more likely. When going by this paper, it appears that the Slavic migration might have brought just some additional Steppe admixture into Greece. So, perhaps Greeks have different layers of steppe admixture, obtained from distinct sources.
 
86HkZ1W.png

xAIhUl9.png


The relatively heavy steppe people have no connection to the Mycenaean samples from Lazaridis' paper, at least according to MTA.

3Sy2isw.png


1MHRoH3.png


Coordinates in Dodecad Globe 13:

Code: 
Kou01,0.21,0.04,1.72,0.12,18.85,0.26,50.11,0.15,0,23.54,5.01,0,0
Kou03,0.09,0,2.49,0,17.26,0,46.34,0.57,0,28.2,5.06,0,0
Log02,0.35,0.44,1.12,0.33,11.9,0,40.29,0.55,0.21,15.91,28.9,0,0
Log04,0.45,1.95,3.14,0,7.25,0,35.42,0.29,0.34,16.63,34.51,0,0
Mik15,0.16,0,3.05,0.29,19.89,0.45,52.96,0,0,15.23,7.96,0,0.02
Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0
 
Jovialis said:
86HkZ1W.png

xAIhUl9.png


The relatively heavy steppe people have no connection to the Mycenaean samples from Lazaridis' paper, at least according to MTA.

3Sy2isw.png


1MHRoH3.png


Coordinates in Dodecad Globe 13:

Code: 
Kou01,0.21,0.04,1.72,0.12,18.85,0.26,50.11,0.15,0,23.54,5.01,0,0
Kou03,0.09,0,2.49,0,17.26,0,46.34,0.57,0,28.2,5.06,0,0
Log02,0.35,0.44,1.12,0.33,11.9,0,40.29,0.55,0.21,15.91,28.9,0,0
Log04,0.45,1.95,3.14,0,7.25,0,35.42,0.29,0.34,16.63,34.51,0,0
Mik15,0.16,0,3.05,0.29,19.89,0.45,52.96,0,0,15.23,7.96,0,0.02
Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0
Click to expand...

I think these two samples are very interesting, and are insightful for understanding the people who lived on the periphery of Mycenaean civilization. However, the above suggests they did not go on to influence Mycenaean genetics.
 
Correction, Log02 does have some small connections to the Lazaridis et al. 2017 paper. She is the one that clusters with Tuscans. Though I would say, this sample also looks a lot more "Illyrian" to me. Once again, strong connections to Italy.
xNsP6iQ.png
 
Jovialis said:
2r0IH0N.png
Click to expand...

nice :cool-v:

lukas uploaded them to k13 ancient tool in vahaduo

Greece_MBA_Log02,25.42,12.25,24.46,9.54,23.63,2.29,0,0,0,1,1.21,0,0.18
Greece_MBA_Log04,27.02,17.23,18.01,13.6,18.4,1.55,0.08,0.5,0.83,2.35,0.3,0,0.13
Greece_MBA_Mik15,14.45,0,36.91,0.55,41.8,6.29,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Greece_EBA_Pta08,9.49,0,35.59,5.30,43.72,5.89,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01,9.32,0,34.63,7.01,45.16,3.88,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03,11.63,0,30.31,15.51,38.16,3.47,0,0,0,0,0.6,0,0.31


The Greek samples sorted by read count: ( i have another computer which give me access to anthrogenica they can't stop me ) :laughing:

[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 128"]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66, width: 64"]219,847,620[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66, width: 64"]Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]216,468,743[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]211,500,916[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]194,405,131[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]138,884,690[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]108,651,773[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_xl66"]Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Last edited:
I think I'm missing the outlier from the Lazaridis paper, the one from a later period in Crete to whom I was pretty close.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]7.68359942[/TD]
[TD]Greece_MBA_Log02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.92423692[/TD]
[TD]Greece_MBA_Log04[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]18.18077556[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.45531960[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.14540815[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.39983451[/TD]
[TD]EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.62245447[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]29.34865244[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.09405085[/TD]
[TD]Greece_MBA_Mik15[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.68130044[/TD]
[TD]Greece_EBA_Pta08[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]35.10495549[/TD]
[TD]EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I don't know where Logkas is, but it must have been in the periphery of the Mycenaean world, as you said, Jovialis. The distance I get to Log2 is similar to my distance to the samples from Dalmatia. If Logkas is from near there it would make perfect sense. Indeed, could they be Illyrian like?

I don't know if they went south and intermingled a bit; we would need more samples from actual Mycenaeans in the Mycenaean Era settlements to the south and east to know that for sure. I don't think it's necessarily the case, however.

This reminds me of what happened with the Rome paper. Some people rush around making conclusions with perhaps no access to the precise location, the burial context, the methodology etc.

Thank you for all this, Jovialis. Exemplary work.
 
someone uploaded him to gedmatch
Log02 in Eurogenes K13
ZK5342256

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 25.42
2 West_Med 24.46
3 East_Med 23.63
4 Baltic 12.25
5 West_Asian 9.54
6 Red_Sea 2.29
7 Oceanian 1.21
8 Amerindian 1
9 Sub-Saharan 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 3.68
2 North_Italian 7.17
3 West_Sicilian 8.01
4 Greek_Thessaly 8.14
5 Italian_Abruzzo 8.55
6 Central_Greek 11.05
7 East_Sicilian 11.74
8 Bulgarian 13.02
9 South_Italian 13.1
10 Romanian 13.81
11 Ashkenazi 14.7
12 Spanish_Extremadura 15.58
13 Portuguese 15.61
14 Spanish_Andalucia 16.3
15 Spanish_Murcia 16.68
16 Spanish_Valencia 16.89
17 Spanish_Galicia 16.92
18 Serbian 17.06
19 Spanish_Cataluna 17.56
20 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 17.83

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.4% North_Italian + 38.6% Central_Greek @ 2.35
 
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