Genetic study The arrival of the Near Eastern ancestry in Central Italy predates the onset of the Roman Empire

torzio said:
i asked yourself on messapics
its not my call
clearly we know the daunians are not greek even after being annexed by the samnites

the only greek trading cities in the adriatic are in albania.....they are corinthian greek town, durres being one........but this is not the italian side
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You haven't asked a single question. So far you've just made vague and odd statements, so it's hard for me to interpret what you're trying to convey. I'd suggest structuring your thoughts a bit more directly so we can converse more clearly. If you're asking my opinion on the Messapics, I think that we should wait to sequence the Messapics before we try to quantify their ancestry in moderns. They very well could overlap greeks in contrast to the more northerly Daunians which would qualify them for more relative input. Their demography, however, has historically has been estimated to be very small at about 120k which is comparable to individual Magna Graecian cities, so I would not presume their input to be large.

There is also the question of Messapic ancestral background, which is not a clearly undestoood topic in of itself. Many modern authors presume an Illyrian origin, but many have also speculated Greek or Greco-Illyrian. It is not a given that they will be totally removed from Greek genetic norms at this point.
 
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On this topic here is a map which conveys the massive scope of Greek colonization in Southern Italy, which includes two colonies on the Adriatic. To me it's really no surprise why moderns in the south plot the way they do with LBA Greeks.

Colonie_greche_e_fenicie_in_Italia.jpg
 
your map agrees with myself.....all are greek trading towns , with minimal greek traders

only pharos (hvar) was settled by greek men from Paxos (aegean island ) who killed the liburnian men and took their woman....they lasted only 100 years as dalmatian men wiped them out
all other areas are greek traders whose numbers are miniscule

many of these liburnian islands like Issa (Viz) where trading with the veneti

i am surprised there is etruscan adria......what about spina
 
i await your declaration on the messapics
remember that taranto is a argos, spartan greek town

trading towns are NOT settlements that sustain the populace of these traders.....these traders come and go.
if u disagree then Durres is 100% a greek town which was eventually annexed by the Romans circa 280Bc
 
a trading town is very different from a settlement town.

again i await your messapic findings....if they are epirotes, then we have a different scenario
 
Torzio, the Greeks have been extensively colonising Southern Italy from the 8th century BC onwards. They weren't setting up trading towns but city-states. Sybaris was a metropolis of 100.000+ people. Neapolis (Napoli/Naples) wasn't just a trading town either. All that area from Campania to the south was Greek but not solely populated by the Greeks/Italiotes, of course. Other groups lived there as well, like the Osci, Samnites, Messapians, Apulians. It was only after the Roman conquest of Magna Graecia in 272 BC that Latin began to replace the Greek language.

Northern Italy is a R1b-U152 hotspot. Further south, you have a continuing increase in J2a. Most of it must have arrived with Greeks. and the Iapygian tribes, the Messapians, Daunians and Peucetians, did not come from Epirus. It is more likely that they arrived from southern Dalmatia.
 
I don't think there's much to declare until we have Messapic DNA. Even then, as Norbert mentioned, Greek colonization was enormous and vastly dwarfed populations such as the Messapics. To me it's evident that the Italiote/Magna Graecian world and Po Valley/Alpine Italics were the two massive population ethnocenters in ancient Italy. Polybius will attest to the latter. City sizes will attest to the former.
 
at norbert

you have confused yourself
i said adriatic italy and Not southern italy......so refrain from this for myself
 
i wish people read that i refer to adriatic italy ONLY
people are trying to score points by adding southern italy into MY mix
 
so now that we have miniscule greek in the adriatic ....one must look at who the adriatic italians mixed with in the bronze and iron age
only sources we have are the many illyrian tribes....who imo where not one uniform race
 
torzio said:
i wish people read that i refer to adriatic italy ONLY
people are trying to score points by adding southern italy into MY mix
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Are you implying that Apulia, Molise and Abruzzo are not part of the Adriatic?
 
torzio said:
at norbert

you have confused yourself
i said adriatic italy and Not southern italy......so refrain from this for myself
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I'm confused by your somewhat incoherent posts. It's not clear to me what you mean by stating that there were no permanent Greek settlements but only trading towns with a minimal Greek presence. Are you talking about the Adriatic coast, Italy in general, southern Italy or the north-south contrast? You should be a little more specific. If you mean the Adriatic coast, I don't see a reason to disagree with you except in the case of Apulia. Its coast was populated by Greeks. The Messapians mostly lived in the interior. Obviously the Greek presence must have been so strong that the former succumbed to their cultural influence which is a good thing. If it wasn't for the Messapians adopting the Greek alphabet, we probably wouldn't know anything about their language today.
 
you guys clearly need to get new maps
Taranto sits on the bay of taranto and is not part of the adriatic sea.

i am ONLY talking about the adristic sea

on Messapians covered all the heel .they surrounded taranto for the entirety of their existance......the heel of italy was not Greek
IF YOU WANT TO DECLARE THE MESSAPIANS AS GREEK, THEN DO SO

if you guys have some hidden information the the messapians where Greek...then share
 
i already linked the the 2020 archeological findings video on what i state.....the digs continue especially for the liburnian islands and liburnian mainland cities
i will update next month
 
torzio said:
i wish people read that i refer to adriatic italy ONLY
people are trying to score points by adding southern italy into MY mix
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Do you need a lesson in geography? Your mix? You're from North Eastern Italy, not the Adriatic sea. Like it or not, you likely have some Southern Italian Greek admixture, going back to antiquity.
 
do not understand your random comment on my admixture......i assume that you are guessing.

north-east italy is part of the adriatic sea.....again, where are you going with this ?

which program do you suggest which forces my admixture to show greek,....never seen one
plus...never seen an admixture program which is reliable
 
i have only ever seen , italian, swiss, german , french and british for myself as an admixture and again i state, i doubt these programs are any good
 
my father has the same admixture as I , but has czechia as well.......neither of us have any slav whatsover
so i have presume , the line is continental celt in origin
 
Vitruvius said:
And the majority of the late antiquity inhabitants of Pesaro still look like LBA greeks, so I'm not sure what your point is here.
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That is what the results suggest no doubt. Frankly I find highly unrealistic that the late antiquity population of Pesaro (as of today, probably very much like Romagna genetically speaking) could be genetically Greek, excluding merchants and possibly military elements from the Byzantine Empire.

In fact something we should take into account for southern and to minor extent central Adriatic Italy, when considering a possible Greek input beyond Magna Graecia, is the Medieval Byzantine era.

I've just read a book by John Julius Norwich about Norman Sicily ("Kingdom in the Sun"), and the author describes Bari in Apulia (as well as many other areas in the south, for example Messina or the whole Calabria) as predominantly Greek, inhabilted for the most part by Greeks. And we're speaking of as late as the 12th century.
 
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torzio said:
i have only ever seen , italian, swiss, german , french and british for myself as an admixture and again i state, i doubt these programs are any good
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Italian within and of itself, do I really have to search for the abstract? It is clear the "Eastern ancestry" they model the north with is likely, Greek, rather than "Near Eastern" as they purport.
 
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