Slavic R1a clades.

[knjaz Milos]

I'm sure most what you described is coincidental. There are tens of thousands words in vocabulary of every language. It would be impossible thing not to find similar sounding words when comparing any two languages.

would you agree that people who lived in Roman empire are much more likely to have latin based names of months than those that did not?
well Czechs and Croats have Slavic month names while Slovaks and Serbs have latin month names. This fits exactly in the model that I have described and is hard to explain with traditional ideas of historians....

Really?I am speaking of M458 moving on line northwest Germany - Czech republic.... without being accompanied by M558
exactly on that line are Chauci and Cherusci (Heruti)... look on one of previous posts a map of Croats among Czech tribes...they are exactly to south east from Česi tribe same as as Heruti are from Chauci.... they just moved down the Wesser and Elbe and arrived into Bohemia from which Boii were expelled earlier....same as Slovaks and Slovenes went up the Rhone under pressure of ...

Btw. are you aware that with Chauci and Cimbri we speak of Ingaevones subgroup of Germanic?
Inga means son, or people of ....

so we speak of originally tribes of Veoni...or Veni /Veneti...
Do you know how Finish call Russia?
Venaja being land
so what would be sons of Venaja in Germanic? ingae-vena?

Besides look at late bronze age cultures...Chauci and Cherusci area was not part of proto Germanic nordic bronze age....
it was part of Urnfield...
same as area of tribal group Slavi, of Scordisci...and Tribali...

note that ancient Greeks in earliest history put Celts on west most parts of Europe on coasts of Atlantic...
that is because true ancestors of Celts were Atlantic bronze age culture....

look at Maciamos R1b ht35 maps...and you will see that R1b arrived to Europe in 2 ways: via Scythia, settling longest in Dacia, from where later to Germany...
and other part via sea from Asia minor to Sicily and than to Albania, coasts of Galia and Portugal...
there comes from ancient Greek myth about brothers Illyrius, Gallus and Celtus from island of Sicily....
later from Portugal Celts have expanded to complete Atlantic coast....but core area is the one where Celtic languages still exist...

from what I see Urnfield was R1a and hence probably pre-west/south Slavic (Russians were even then in Russia as Aorsi and Belarus northwest of them as Boreans, Burri...)... areas of Chauci and Cherusci and tribal union Slavi are exactly western borders of Urnfield on most north and most south parts...

Hallstat however was result of expansion of Atlantic bronze age towards east....
what is called east Hallstat (Czeco-Slovakia, Pannonia, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia) however was not so much Hallstat as it was influenced by it
e.g. its clear that they still use burials derived from corded ware.. East Hallstat celebrates goddes under name or epithet Sulevia...coincidence? hm...
On areas of Urnfield and of later east Hallstat come Chauci, Cherusci, Norici, Raeti, Boii, Scordisci, Cornacates and Pannoni....I have explained you Chauci, Cherusci, Slavi, Boii and Scordisci... let me mention that Norici were mentioned as originally Slavic by Russian primary chronicle ... and that Serbia had name Raška in medival times...and that current state is easilz explainable with expansions of first Roman empire and than of Germanic people...

look I do not think anyone can claim any land based on distant history...cause if that would be allowed any nation/tribe could claim any land...but it doesnot make sense to me an attempt of official history to push west and south Slavs out of central Europe into Ukraine and Russia...from genetics it is clear that R1a branches specific for Russia and Belarus didnot move from there to areas of south and west Slavs...

 

[Boreas]

İs there any map for Z282?

 

[Tomenable]

These are locations of ancient DNA samples of R1a and R1b haplogroups found so far, from period 8000 - 2000 years ago:

The two oldest samples - 7500 ybp (from Southern Deer Island, Lake Onega, Karelia) and 6000 ybp (found near the city of Velizh) were hunter-gatherers.

Samples of R1a from Poland and East Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Corded Ware cultures (4600 ybp, 4400 ybp and 4000 ybp), as well as the Lusatian Culture (3100 ybp). Samples of R1b from Germany were found in the context of Copper-Bronze Age Bell Beaker cultures (4500 ybp and 4300 ybp):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

Only the burial site belonging to Urnfield cultural horizon located near Dorste (3000 ybp) happened to contain both R1a (x2) and R1b (x1):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture

The most important of all settlements of the Lusatian Culture found so far, was Biskupin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin

 

[Tomenable]

These are locations of ancient DNA samples of R1a and R1b haplogroups found so far, from period 8000 - 2000 years ago:

And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

 

[Namu]

I'd love to see a further refined form of these maps where M458 gets broken down between its L260 and L1029 subclades. From what I gathered so far, both were present during the slavic expansion, however L260 is more prevalent now in polish lands whereas L1029 seems to have travelled much further (though rare it can be found in Italy, Greece, and even UK and Spain).

 

[mihaitzateo]

What about Norse R1-A1?
To which branch is closer,to R1A-M458 or to R1A-Z280?
Or to neither?

 

[MOESAN]

And modern dominant haplogroups by country for comparison - R1b is pink here (while R1a is red like before):

I'm doubtfull about Croatia: I think Y-I2 is stronger there than Y-R1a

 

[MOESAN]

Tomentable,
great job with maps and graphs.

I would like to notice that beside populations that are largely mix of M558 and M458 we also have populations that are dominantly M458 or dominantly M558.
This is important because it suggests that before the groups mixed there was individual development of each spreading in some unrelated directions.

From maps of M458 and M558 such directions of spreading that differ are nortwest Germany for M458 and south France for M558

Hence, I think that those are the places where we should search either for origin or for colonies of modern populations that dominantly carry just one of the two groups...

If we look for Czech and Croat related people in northwest Germany we easily find:

1) Chauci - who lived between Frisia and Denmark around river Wesser in area of Bremen.. from Chauci to Česi (or other way around) is small step

2) Cherusci - who lived just southeast of Chauci... now Cherusci is the name whose origin is set by science to word Herut ..this is also not far from Hervati



if we look for Slovene (and Slovak?) in history of south France we easily find:
tribal union Slavi (Salyes ( Greek: Σάλυες) or Salluvi) whose last king was Tutomotulus. He lost battle with Romans and his people saw him as weak guy who missed golden chance...

Now ask anyone in Slovakia about meaning of weird word Tutimutilis or ask Serbs about meaning of word TutaMuta...they will all tell you its sweet way to criticize toddler about his weakness...

after that defeat nothing is known of this tribe...my guess that they moved along Rhone river (around which they lived especially in plane called Druentia (Slavic place name would be Drvenica or place with lot of woods (drvo)) to north fleeing Romans...

curiously Slovaks live around river Hron...its second largest river in Slovakia with length of 298 kilometers... again words Rhone and Hron are very likely of same origin....Rhone comes from Alps and first flows towards west and than towards south...river Hron cmes from Tatra mountains which are highest (like Alps) of Carpathian mountains...first it flows to west than to south... so its not just similarity of names.... its similarity of landscape as well...and furthermore its 300 km long river and only Slovakians all around it which places it in central area of their settlement...


I do not think that south Slavs (Croats are originally not part of this group) lived in south France though... I think they lived in Pannonia...from Slovakia to Greece... "Pan" is a word for (noble) man in Czecho-Slovakian ....so Pannonians would just mean "people"

this also explains notion of Danubian Slavs living around Danube prior to expansion of Roman empire as described in Russian primary chronicle.....

I believe that in such context ancestors of Serbs would be Boii and Ser Boii... historic sources (Byzantine emperor) states that white Serbs came to Balkan from place they call in own language Boika and that the land is beyond Hungary and is neighbouring Franks (used to live in west most Germany prior to expansion) and white Croats (think here also of Cherusci living from Wesser to Elbe).... and that they are also originally from that land... now Boika is of course land of Boii..it is Bohemia/Bavaria...

but they are white Serbs.... in my theory white is northwest of main body of nation (examples are Belarus being northwest of Russia and white Syrians being in Cappadokia northwest of Syria)

so core of Serbs must have been southeast of Boii...only candidates are Scordisci...who are related and perhaps derived from Boii... or are they Ser Boii ...Ser being word for head, core in iranian languages.....

now look at Nepal there lives a nation Sherpa... they are Tibetan related folk but unlike other Tibetans they have significant percentage of R1a and E1b...and they also have circle dance very much like Serbian "kolo" which is quite unusual for that area...

the meaning of their name in their own language is Sher + pa = eastern people...

note "pa" for people, same like I suggested for Pannoninas.... now Sher as eastern... this etymology can be linked to PIE....Slavic Zora = dawn comes from east....

so Ser Boii as eastern Boii (PIE version)? or as main Boii (iranic version)?

in the end look at Serbia now, north most part is Vojvodina...Boii + vodina (waterland)..its area of Danube... if you think Voj is quite different from Boii, well while Serbs still use word boj for battle, derived words have changed to forms starting with "V"...e.g. Croats have bojnik for soldier, Serbs have vojnik...from "bojevati" more modern is "vojevati"....

now following comparison with R1a E1b Sherpa people if pa means people , one would expect Boii in meaning people...

boj = battle in Slavic, vojnik/bojnik = soldier, warrior, so the etymology would be about people warriors... and Bojka would be land of battlefield or borderland... and indeed Boii were displaced from Bohemia by Germanic Marcomani (note that these are also border people cause Mark is border in germanic)...where they move to "deserta of Boii"..."desert mean again border area...

why would Scordisci be Ser Boii?I except for being exactly (southeast of Boii) as where one would expect Ser Boii?

because -isci is just celtic ending and has no meaning for core name...
because 'Sc' i just 'S' same as in Sclaveni
because with previous two its Scordisci -> Sordi
and we know that Serdi is tribal name of people who moved from area of Scordisci to Thrace and became thracanized...So Serdi may have been original..prior to getting celticized form and being written down by Romans or Greeks...
or was it Serbi?

after all if we have in Nepal the Sherpa people that dance circle dance (their word for dance is 'sharwu') alike Serbian "kolo" and call their military leader 'serdar' same as Serbs did, and who have R1a and E1b that merged several thousands year ago, where could have this ancient merging of R1a and E1b happened except in Balkans, in Serbia, or alternatively nearby in Asia minor with candidates being Lydia (ljudi = people in Serbian) with its town Sardis and people named Mushki (mushki = males in Serbian)..think here also of word Moesia (ancient name for Serbia and north Boulgaria) as related to Asia minor tribe Mushki?

As for I2a if one wonders if it is Croat related....I do not think so... I2a is not spread in northwest Germany....i think its origin is around north and west coasts of Black sea and it spread into Balkans when Cimmerians were forced by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion) to move away from there...I think elite of Cimmerians did origin from Sumerians and ordinary people were local I2a (ancient Greeks write about ancient movement of Syrian people across Caucasus and they also write about Syrians = Sumerians and about white Syrians in Kappadokia..while other sources mention Cimmerians in Kappadokia) ...hence a possibility why Cimmerians would be easily merged into Serbs is that they could have culturally derived origin from Sumerians and from their goddess Sarpanit/Zerbanit ...

notice in white Syrians the same "white" naming pattern for northwest most part of land..as for Serbs, Russians (Belarus = white Russia, belo = white), Croats ....i explain it with religion dedicated to light (Zora/Danica is dawn goddess, Sarpanit as well)...white light is night light, hence northwest area is white area like Belarus.. Sarpanit had as it mark crescent (we call it "srpanj" in serbian) and was related to Venus.....look at coat of arms of Serbs...its left and right crescent mirrored around horizontal axis.... why left and right...because it is crescent but it is not Moon..it is Venus...Venus we can see like left and right crescent....Venus is planet that announced day.. same like with it associated dawn goddess did...
In my opinion, goddes Sarpanit was known as Ishara to Syrians, Tanit to Phoenicians, Asher to Israelites, Aushrine to Balts, Ishtar on middle east, Ostara to Germanic people. Asura/ Danu in Sanskrit and Irish (similar to Serbian Zora/Danica), Isis to Egyptians, and Eos to Greeks (PIE form would Ausos)... note that names Ostara and Ishtar are based on word for star....while we in Serbia always say zvezda (star) Danica and zvezda Danica plays still important role in our preserved poetry and collective memory...
I will skip obvious explanations that Ostrogoths (Heruli and Scirri) are Ostara's Goths and why Austria has its name Austria...this doesnot necesserilly mean that Scirii and Heruli were Serbs and Croats (although Letopis popa Dukljanina claims them to be Goths), we are speaking here about old PIE religion and culture shared between many Indo-European countries...

So Celts and Germanics are Slavs, in fine?
I have not the time juts now to examine (and refute?) all your comparison of ancient names and words.
Just some: Rhône: the 'H' is a mystery to me, surely an heritage of greek; the most credible hypothesis is a greek origine based upon'rhodan-' (meaning unkown to me) - the czech name Hron implies a root *gron-
your Boii/boj/voj/pa demonstration is not convincing at all... Others forumers played the same party before, based on some phonetic ressemblances between names separated by long time and long distances sometimes...
I don't know hat R1b and E1 are coming to do here, but I think Y-R1a in Southeastern France has more to do with Burgundians than with Slavs of any sort. The genetic link could exists with Slavs (contacts between them and Eastern Germanics) but you cannot find links in langage, toponyms, anthroponyms or hydronyms.
No offense, trying is not a sin.

 

[Artmar]

What about Norse R1-A1?
To which branch is closer,to R1A-M458 or to R1A-Z280?
Or to neither?

To neither. It's related with both on an upstream level of Z282. No SNP was found to place any of those branches closer to each other yetand probably wouldn't be in future.

 

[Tomenable]

Germans - Niemcy are people who can't speak , pol. - niemy - mute persons.

Not necessarily.

It is also possible, that the name Niemcy comes from the tribe of Nemetes / Nemeti:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemetes

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemeti

The oldest confirmed use of the name Niemcy (for Germans) is from "Life of St. Methodius" - a 9th century source. "Life of St. Methodius" cited the words of Great Moravian Duke Rostislav (840-870) spoken to Byzantine Emperor Michael III (842-867).

In that talk between Rostislav and Michael, the former mentioned "Niemcy" (Germans).

 

[The_Lyonnist]

What's the dominant subclade in France (Burgundians)?

 

[MaxCRO]

I can't seem to find link on the study from the OP.

It would be interesting to find where the Croatian samples were taken , because I doubt such dominance of M-458 subclade among Croats.

 

[Garrick]

I can't seem to find link on the study from the OP.

It would be interesting to find where the Croatian samples were taken , because I doubt such dominance of M-458 subclade among Croats.

If graph: http://s29.postimg.org/n8pi0uko7/Graph_Clades.png is accurate there is big difference in R1a between Serbs and Croats.

However, Serbs and Croats are similar, and it is logical that ratio of R1a Z280 to R1a 458 is similar at Serbs and Croats.

Therefore it is possible something is wrong with samples, it can be useful that someone contact authors.

 

[Dinarid]

It seems like R1a-Z280 is associated with the northern Black Sea and Balkans and thus has a similar distribution I2a1.

 

[RajvoSa]

I have a question.

Is R1a-M458 original Slavic haplogroup or is imported by somebody else?

 

[Edward_J]

My Slovenian line is under R1a-Z280, if that helps at all. They are from Northwestern Slovenia.

 

[LeBrok]

I have a question.

Is R1a-M458 original Slavic haplogroup or is imported by somebody else?

We don't know that yet. Just suppositions, and waiting for samples from old slavic graves. Give it a year or two.

 

[Dibran]

We don't know that yet. Just suppositions, and waiting for samples from old slavic graves. Give it a year or two.

Really? Are we sure? Because, on anthro and other sites, including ftdna admins, they are certain it’s Slavic.

Here om Eupedia, I have seen the umbrella term by many and Maciamo as Germano-Slavic.

Some say say it was Lusatian but who were they? Many claim Lusatians were Slavs.

I am no call for M458 on LivingDNA and predicted M458>YP515> 40 percents unknown clades by FTDNA. Admin suspects I form a founder affect of an unknown branch under M458. Possibly dubbed an Albanian branch given my only match is a Albanian from Gostivar with a predicted TMRCA of 1000 years. My y12 matches are scattered from western to Eastern Europe. Most of which are in Germany with TMRCA of 1800-3400 years with all my y12 matches.

The admin claims the only 2 scenarios are Goth or great migration slav into Byzantium.

I am doing Yelite with FGC so I will know the actual assignment in January. The. Upload to Yfull.

 

[Sile]

Really? Are we sure? Because, on anthro and other sites, including ftdna admins, they are certain it’s Slavic.

Here om Eupedia, I have seen the umbrella term by many and Maciamo as Germano-Slavic.

Some say say it was Lusatian but who were they? Many claim Lusatians were Slavs.

I am no call for M458 on LivingDNA and predicted M458>YP515> 40 percents unknown clades by FTDNA. Admin suspects I form a founder affect of an unknown branch under M458. Possibly dubbed an Albanian branch given my only match is a Albanian from Gostivar with a predicted TMRCA of 1000 years. My y12 matches are scattered from western to Eastern Europe. Most of which are in Germany with TMRCA of 1800-3400 years with all my y12 matches.

The admin claims the only 2 scenarios are Goth or great migration slav into Byzantium.

I am doing Yelite with FGC so I will know the actual assignment in January. The. Upload to Yfull.

Gambitus states they are balts and the remnants got absorbed into firstly Germanic and later into slavic once the slavs moved in many centuries later

 

[Dibran]

We don't know that yet. Just suppositions, and waiting for samples from old slavic graves. Give it a year or two.

Gambitus states they are balts and the remnants got absorbed into firstly Germanic and later into slavic once the slavs moved in many centuries later

Do you have sources?