vandalorum
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Can someone write about data for Moldova and Romania for my weird theories please? Because I do not write/speak english and I have no biological / genetical education.
Slavic R1a clades.
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vandalorum
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On another forum users from Slovenia wrote that ethnogenesis of Slovenes was the result of two Slavic migrations - one from the north (from the area of Czechoslovakia - probably from the region of Moravia, which is between Czechia and Slovakia) and one from the east (across the Balkans). The latter was more important (more numerous?), at least in the south, where modern Slovenia is located:
http://historum.com/european-history/80449-slovenia-5.html
Let's also add that Slovenes in the Early Middle Ages (the earliest known texts in Old Slovene are the Freising Manuscripts) extended in the north as far as the Danube River. Their northern neighbours (across the river) were Czech-Moravian-Slovak tribes and their eastern neighbours were Pannonian Slavs (in the north) and Croats. That was before the Magyar invasion and Bavarian expansion (which resulted in the creation of Austria). This map shows the original extent of Slovene-speakers (green area) and borders of modern Slovenia:
Pannonian Slavs (eastern neighbours of Slovenes) spoke a distinct dialect: http://linguistlist.org/pubs/diss/browse-diss-action.cfm?DissID=819
The Freising Manuscripts from the 10th century (YT wrongly describes them as written in "Old Slavonic", in fact it was already a clearly differentiated Old Slovene - distinct from other Slavic languages & dialects, like Old Church Slavonic, Pannonian, etc.):
What is interesting is that Austrians today have a higher % of R1a than Slovenes (according to Underhill's study).
And according to Kalevi Wiik's study, inhabitants of the Austrian city of Graz (Gradec in Slovene) have 43% (!) of R1a.
Isn't that east wave (Antes) is really m458 and this people do not came to Slovenia but more east of today border of Slovenia? The same east wave came to Poland, Slovakia, Czech (especially) and Polabians - Elbe river? And Lusatian Serbs have m458 exactly? Descendants of Polabians also?
About language similarity Slovenes and Poles say zahod/zachód (west) while Czechs and Slovaks (inspired by Czechs - Antes) say zapad and "zachód" for them sounds like "wc".
Only Slovenes say "beseda" for word. Poles or Slovaks use "słowo" or "slovo" but Poles have a word "biesiada" - similar to "beseda" and meaning of "biesiada" is "feast" and that has sense - on feast we talk much.
Slovenes say "gozd" for "forest", Poles "las", Czechs "les" but I live in west Poland and we have small town "Gozdnica" and it is located in the middle of the forests.
vandalorum
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Ukrainian or/and Belarusian as slo-Veneti = m558 is closer to German because of old neighborhood (Vistula river?):
батько (batia) - baty - vati - father polish: ojciec, czech: otec
матір (matier) - muther, mother polish: matka, czech: matka
брат (brat) - bruder , brother polish: brat, czech: bratr
дочка (dotshka) - daughter , tochter polish: córka, czech: dcera
князь (kniaz) - knight , knecht polish: rycerz, czech: rytíř
Antes arose from a change of word Venedi/Veneti, similar like:
węgiel - ugal (уголь) = coal
Venedi/Venedy/Vendy/Venty = Unty/Anty = Antes
I mean m-458 take a similar name
батько (batia) - baty - vati - father polish: ojciec, czech: otec
матір (matier) - muther, mother polish: matka, czech: matka
брат (brat) - bruder , brother polish: brat, czech: bratr
дочка (dotshka) - daughter , tochter polish: córka, czech: dcera
князь (kniaz) - knight , knecht polish: rycerz, czech: rytíř
Antes arose from a change of word Venedi/Veneti, similar like:
węgiel - ugal (уголь) = coal
Venedi/Venedy/Vendy/Venty = Unty/Anty = Antes
I mean m-458 take a similar name
LeBrok
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Interesting, maybe you are on the right track.
One correction though. Knecht in german means a servant, and as such was also used in medieval polish. I think, in English and Russian "knecht" evolved from meaning "servant" (as a feudal servant of a king) to today's meaning of knight as a noble man/fighter. German equivalent of polish "rycerz" is "ritter". I'm guessing that plish word has been borrowed from german, a language of Holy Roman Empire.
Ike
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Knjaz goes way back with kaiser to Roman times and Caesar, and rest are pretty much standard Slavic words with no distinctive difference among people. Here on Balkan you can also hear: batko, baća, mater, brat, ćerka, kćer. Don't see where you're going with this.
vandalorum
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yes, sorry, this one I do not changed from my old notes
vandalorum
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Language itself does not mean anything. But in conjunction with genes mean more. We have language "users" and language "owner" or/and older language users and pretty young language users. For me, for now the first user (or even owner) of slavic language are m-558 people. M-458 lived east of slo-Venedi and after some events (Hun invasion) they go to the Elbe river border (V century) and after to the Balkans (Croatia 16%)... and after they go back from Polabie (Elbe river area) to Finno-Ugric lands and teached them to speak words - słowa, so after that they named themselves Słowianie - Slavs - people who can speak, and Germans - Niemcy are people who can't speak , pol. - niemy - mute persons.
MOESAN
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]linguisticsis not divination only
and you cannot put in the same etymologicdemonstration SLO(-)VENETI+ SLO(-)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]VEN[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]IAand SLO(-)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]VA[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]K[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]IA[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]:you have to choose !!! I recall you I think the true root isSLOV-
AND to link phonetically ANTES to VENT-/VEND- in the samelanguage when these words were of the same period is going far: yetthis evolution or correspondance is very unsure but if someseemingly surprisingevolutions can occur WITH TIME, they NEED TIME ANDSEPARATION/ISOLATION before they could give so big differences whatwas not the case in these old times
we- >> u- is very possible, but u- >> a- is to be proved among same time cousin languages... (NOT impossible but...?)
by the way could you tell me in what language exist UGAL = WEGIEL ? thanks beforehand
[/FONT]
vandalorum
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Could you write bigger letters?
pol. węgel = rus. уголь
Slavs so "Słowianie" is result of the conquest of Fino-Ugric people. Vents/Venets taught them to use "words" - "słowa". And after that was created Slavs ethnos, as a language community. Venedi, Venty (slo-Veneti) were one nation, Antes second but close to first and all another is only language community.
I use term "slo" to emphasize language owners of oryginal basis of todays slavic languages. Venty/Veneti do not reffered (do not call) themselves as Slavs in those times.
MOESAN
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Vandalorum, I did a copy-and-paste and my text, firstable, was ridiculously small, almost unreadable so I try to enlarge it, so you had this megalomanic result: it was not to emphasize my thoughts, tryig to impress you...
OK for your explanation of all those SLO-something in your posts ... at first reading I had almost a cardiac attack, believing they illustrated your etymologic thoughts
that said, your affirmation concerning the Veneti/Venedi as ancestors of SLavs and "teachers" (along Antes) of the other slavicized people doesn't convince me -
no problem, because I have no more proof than you have - my feeling is that Veneti were at first the descendants of an old wave of I-Eans speaking at first a centum old dialect stayed akin to proto-Celtic-proto-Italic (maybe proto-Germanic) SO not well differentiated yet, before being attracted (centripiede forces) by subsequent wave of I-Eans or I-Eicized people on the way to satemization - I would see very well at some stage an intermediary dwelling in central Europe (Moravia?) or in E-Austria not far from future Urnfields/Lusatz developpments and not far from N-E Italy... ALL BETS AT THIS STAGE I avow -
&: for Fiinic-Ugric absorbed people by true Slavs I believe in concerns for the most the N-Russians and E-Russians ones - the most of Finnic people by nature seem to me having been absorbed by Baltic speaking I-Eans...
good week-end
PS WHAT DATE FOR FIRST MENTION OF VENETI IN N-E EUROPE, PLEASE?
OK for your explanation of all those SLO-something in your posts ... at first reading I had almost a cardiac attack, believing they illustrated your etymologic thoughts
that said, your affirmation concerning the Veneti/Venedi as ancestors of SLavs and "teachers" (along Antes) of the other slavicized people doesn't convince me -
no problem, because I have no more proof than you have - my feeling is that Veneti were at first the descendants of an old wave of I-Eans speaking at first a centum old dialect stayed akin to proto-Celtic-proto-Italic (maybe proto-Germanic) SO not well differentiated yet, before being attracted (centripiede forces) by subsequent wave of I-Eans or I-Eicized people on the way to satemization - I would see very well at some stage an intermediary dwelling in central Europe (Moravia?) or in E-Austria not far from future Urnfields/Lusatz developpments and not far from N-E Italy... ALL BETS AT THIS STAGE I avow -
&: for Fiinic-Ugric absorbed people by true Slavs I believe in concerns for the most the N-Russians and E-Russians ones - the most of Finnic people by nature seem to me having been absorbed by Baltic speaking I-Eans...
good week-end
PS WHAT DATE FOR FIRST MENTION OF VENETI IN N-E EUROPE, PLEASE?
Ike
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OK, you have to be more specific. Did thet taught them to use letters or words (language)? If tribes spoke Uralic language, and Venets spoke language that they did, who gave them Slavic?
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One important note:
Of course Underhill et. al. 2014 made a typo in designations of clades.
What they have as "Z282" is actually Z280 (and more precisely, Z280 other than M558, because M558 is a downclade of Z280).
This applies to all of my graphs, charts and maps too (I used their designations).
Of course Underhill et. al. 2014 made a typo in designations of clades.
What they have as "Z282" is actually Z280 (and more precisely, Z280 other than M558, because M558 is a downclade of Z280).
This applies to all of my graphs, charts and maps too (I used their designations).
Tomenable
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One important note:
Of course Underhill et. al. 2014 made a typo in designations of clades.
What they have as "Z282" is actually Z280 (and more precisely, Z280 other than M558, because M558 is a downclade of Z280).
This applies to all of my graphs, charts and maps too (I used their designations).
"Other" (yellow) are several distinct Non-Z280 clades.
See above, "Z282" in Underhill is a spelling mistake / typo. In reality this is Z280.
An interesting theory.
Of course Underhill et. al. 2014 made a typo in designations of clades.
What they have as "Z282" is actually Z280 (and more precisely, Z280 other than M558, because M558 is a downclade of Z280).
This applies to all of my graphs, charts and maps too (I used their designations).
"Other" (yellow) are several distinct Non-Z280 clades.
See above, "Z282" in Underhill is a spelling mistake / typo. In reality this is Z280.
Is there a possibility that Croatia was just a geographic region? Hrbat means ridge, so it could denote Carpates, while Hrvats (Croats) could be Slavs from Carpates (i.e. Slovakia)?
An interesting theory.
Tomenable
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Among Slavic and Baltic populations, when it comes to people with haplogroup R1a, two major clades dominate - Z280 and M458.
The age of these two clades is:
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/
Z280:
Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 years ago (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ca. 4800 years ago (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).
M458:
Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ok. 4500 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).
=================================================
Distribution of percentage shares of these clades within all of R1a forms an interesting continuum (but also a clinal distribution in some areas).
If individuals with R1a haplogroup in each population = 100%, then respective shares of Z280 and M458 within that R1a are:
Population (R1a Z280 / R1a M458 / other clades of R1a) - according to Underhill 2014 (+ Ukrainians from Lviv & Lithuanians from another source):
WeS = Western Slavs
SoS = Southern Slavs
EaS = Eastern Slavs
Balt = Balts
[WeS] Czechs-----------------------------(20,2 / 79,8 / 0,0)
[WeS] Czechs Utah------------------------(19,9 / 70,0 / 10,1)
[SoS] Croatia interior-----------------------(32,0 / 68,0 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland------------------------------(42,0 / 58,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-----------------(46,9 / 53,1 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland (another source)--------------(51,7 / 48,3 / 0,0)
[WeS] Slovakia-----------------------------(52,1 / 46,2 / 1,7)
[WeS] Poles Wroclaw-----------------------(56,8 / 43,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bulgaria------------------------------(51,2 / 42,0 / 6,8)
[EaS] Ukrainians Lviv------------------------(58,2 / 41,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frankivsk-------------(60,0 / 40,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Belarusians Brest----------------------(61,4 / 38,6 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Kostroma--------------------(62,6 / 37,4 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk--------------------(67,4 / 30,4 / 2,2)
[EaS] Belarusians (another source)-----------(69,7 / 30,3 / 0,0)
[SoS] Macedonians--------------------------(72,7 / 27,3 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Pskov------------------------(72,6 / 25,8 / 1,6)
[EaS] Russians Oryol-------------------------(76,4 / 23,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Serbia--------------------------------(64,9 / 23,2 / 11,9)
[EaS] Belarusians (Underhill)------------------(76,8 / 23,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bosnia--------------------------------(80,2 / 19,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians (another source)--------------(80,8 / 19,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------------(81,2 / 18,8 / 0,0)
[Balt] Lithuanians----------------------------(81,8 / 18,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk---------------------(84,3 / 15,7 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Akkerman--------------------(88,4 / 11,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Slovenia-------------------------------(83,9 / 10,7 / 5,4)
[SoS] Herzegovina----------------------------(93,8 / 6,2 / 0,0)
Chart: http://s17.postimg.org/8i4qm1een/R1a_chart.png
The age of these two clades is:
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/
Z280:
Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 years ago (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ca. 4800 years ago (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).
M458:
Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ok. 4500 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).
=================================================
Distribution of percentage shares of these clades within all of R1a forms an interesting continuum (but also a clinal distribution in some areas).
If individuals with R1a haplogroup in each population = 100%, then respective shares of Z280 and M458 within that R1a are:
Population (R1a Z280 / R1a M458 / other clades of R1a) - according to Underhill 2014 (+ Ukrainians from Lviv & Lithuanians from another source):
WeS = Western Slavs
SoS = Southern Slavs
EaS = Eastern Slavs
Balt = Balts
[WeS] Czechs-----------------------------(20,2 / 79,8 / 0,0)
[WeS] Czechs Utah------------------------(19,9 / 70,0 / 10,1)
[SoS] Croatia interior-----------------------(32,0 / 68,0 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland------------------------------(42,0 / 58,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-----------------(46,9 / 53,1 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland (another source)--------------(51,7 / 48,3 / 0,0)
[WeS] Slovakia-----------------------------(52,1 / 46,2 / 1,7)
[WeS] Poles Wroclaw-----------------------(56,8 / 43,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bulgaria------------------------------(51,2 / 42,0 / 6,8)
[EaS] Ukrainians Lviv------------------------(58,2 / 41,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frankivsk-------------(60,0 / 40,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Belarusians Brest----------------------(61,4 / 38,6 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Kostroma--------------------(62,6 / 37,4 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk--------------------(67,4 / 30,4 / 2,2)
[EaS] Belarusians (another source)-----------(69,7 / 30,3 / 0,0)
[SoS] Macedonians--------------------------(72,7 / 27,3 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Pskov------------------------(72,6 / 25,8 / 1,6)
[EaS] Russians Oryol-------------------------(76,4 / 23,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Serbia--------------------------------(64,9 / 23,2 / 11,9)
[EaS] Belarusians (Underhill)------------------(76,8 / 23,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bosnia--------------------------------(80,2 / 19,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians (another source)--------------(80,8 / 19,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------------(81,2 / 18,8 / 0,0)
[Balt] Lithuanians----------------------------(81,8 / 18,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk---------------------(84,3 / 15,7 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Akkerman--------------------(88,4 / 11,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Slovenia-------------------------------(83,9 / 10,7 / 5,4)
[SoS] Herzegovina----------------------------(93,8 / 6,2 / 0,0)
Chart: http://s17.postimg.org/8i4qm1een/R1a_chart.png
knjaz Milos
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Tomentable,
great job with maps and graphs.
I would like to notice that beside populations that are largely mix of M558 and M458 we also have populations that are dominantly M458 or dominantly M558.
This is important because it suggests that before the groups mixed there was individual development of each spreading in some unrelated directions.
From maps of M458 and M558 such directions of spreading that differ are nortwest Germany for M458 and south France for M558
Hence, I think that those are the places where we should search either for origin or for colonies of modern populations that dominantly carry just one of the two groups...
If we look for Czech and Croat related people in northwest Germany we easily find:
1) Chauci - who lived between Frisia and Denmark around river Wesser in area of Bremen.. from Chauci to Česi (or other way around) is small step
2) Cherusci - who lived just southeast of Chauci... now Cherusci is the name whose origin is set by science to word Herut ..this is also not far from Hervati
if we look for Slovene (and Slovak?) in history of south France we easily find:
tribal union Slavi (Salyes ( Greek: Σάλυες) or Salluvi) whose last king was Tutomotulus. He lost battle with Romans and his people saw him as weak guy who missed golden chance...
Now ask anyone in Slovakia about meaning of weird word Tutimutilis or ask Serbs about meaning of word TutaMuta...they will all tell you its sweet way to criticize toddler about his weakness...
after that defeat nothing is known of this tribe...my guess that they moved along Rhone river (around which they lived especially in plane called Druentia (Slavic place name would be Drvenica or place with lot of woods (drvo)) to north fleeing Romans...
curiously Slovaks live around river Hron...its second largest river in Slovakia with length of 298 kilometers... again words Rhone and Hron are very likely of same origin....Rhone comes from Alps and first flows towards west and than towards south...river Hron cmes from Tatra mountains which are highest (like Alps) of Carpathian mountains...first it flows to west than to south... so its not just similarity of names.... its similarity of landscape as well...and furthermore its 300 km long river and only Slovakians all around it which places it in central area of their settlement...
I do not think that south Slavs (Croats are originally not part of this group) lived in south France though... I think they lived in Pannonia...from Slovakia to Greece... "Pan" is a word for (noble) man in Czecho-Slovakian ....so Pannonians would just mean "people"
this also explains notion of Danubian Slavs living around Danube prior to expansion of Roman empire as described in Russian primary chronicle.....
I believe that in such context ancestors of Serbs would be Boii and Ser Boii... historic sources (Byzantine emperor) states that white Serbs came to Balkan from place they call in own language Boika and that the land is beyond Hungary and is neighbouring Franks (used to live in west most Germany prior to expansion) and white Croats (think here also of Cherusci living from Wesser to Elbe).... and that they are also originally from that land... now Boika is of course land of Boii..it is Bohemia/Bavaria...
but they are white Serbs.... in my theory white is northwest of main body of nation (examples are Belarus being northwest of Russia and white Syrians being in Cappadokia northwest of Syria)
so core of Serbs must have been southeast of Boii...only candidates are Scordisci...who are related and perhaps derived from Boii... or are they Ser Boii ...Ser being word for head, core in iranian languages.....
now look at Nepal there lives a nation Sherpa... they are Tibetan related folk but unlike other Tibetans they have significant percentage of R1a and E1b...and they also have circle dance very much like Serbian "kolo" which is quite unusual for that area...
the meaning of their name in their own language is Sher + pa = eastern people...
note "pa" for people, same like I suggested for Pannoninas.... now Sher as eastern... this etymology can be linked to PIE....Slavic Zora = dawn comes from east....
so Ser Boii as eastern Boii (PIE version)? or as main Boii (iranic version)?
in the end look at Serbia now, north most part is Vojvodina...Boii + vodina (waterland)..its area of Danube... if you think Voj is quite different from Boii, well while Serbs still use word boj for battle, derived words have changed to forms starting with "V"...e.g. Croats have bojnik for soldier, Serbs have vojnik...from "bojevati" more modern is "vojevati"....
now following comparison with R1a E1b Sherpa people if pa means people , one would expect Boii in meaning people...
boj = battle in Slavic, vojnik/bojnik = soldier, warrior, so the etymology would be about people warriors... and Bojka would be land of battlefield or borderland... and indeed Boii were displaced from Bohemia by Germanic Marcomani (note that these are also border people cause Mark is border in germanic)...where they move to "deserta of Boii"..."desert mean again border area...
why would Scordisci be Ser Boii?I except for being exactly (southeast of Boii) as where one would expect Ser Boii?
because -isci is just celtic ending and has no meaning for core name...
because 'Sc' i just 'S' same as in Sclaveni
because with previous two its Scordisci -> Sordi
and we know that Serdi is tribal name of people who moved from area of Scordisci to Thrace and became thracanized...So Serdi may have been original..prior to getting celticized form and being written down by Romans or Greeks...
or was it Serbi?
after all if we have in Nepal the Sherpa people that dance circle dance (their word for dance is 'sharwu') alike Serbian "kolo" and call their military leader 'serdar' same as Serbs did, and who have R1a and E1b that merged several thousands year ago, where could have this ancient merging of R1a and E1b happened except in Balkans, in Serbia, or alternatively nearby in Asia minor with candidates being Lydia (ljudi = people in Serbian) with its town Sardis and people named Mushki (mushki = males in Serbian)..think here also of word Moesia (ancient name for Serbia and north Boulgaria) as related to Asia minor tribe Mushki?
As for I2a if one wonders if it is Croat related....I do not think so... I2a is not spread in northwest Germany....i think its origin is around north and west coasts of Black sea and it spread into Balkans when Cimmerians were forced by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion) to move away from there...I think elite of Cimmerians did origin from Sumerians and ordinary people were local I2a (ancient Greeks write about ancient movement of Syrian people across Caucasus and they also write about Syrians = Sumerians and about white Syrians in Kappadokia..while other sources mention Cimmerians in Kappadokia) ...hence a possibility why Cimmerians would be easily merged into Serbs is that they could have culturally derived origin from Sumerians and from their goddess Sarpanit/Zerbanit ...
notice in white Syrians the same "white" naming pattern for northwest most part of land..as for Serbs, Russians (Belarus = white Russia, belo = white), Croats ....i explain it with religion dedicated to light (Zora/Danica is dawn goddess, Sarpanit as well)...white light is night light, hence northwest area is white area like Belarus.. Sarpanit had as it mark crescent (we call it "srpanj" in serbian) and was related to Venus.....look at coat of arms of Serbs...its left and right crescent mirrored around horizontal axis.... why left and right...because it is crescent but it is not Moon..it is Venus...Venus we can see like left and right crescent....Venus is planet that announced day.. same like with it associated dawn goddess did...
In my opinion, goddes Sarpanit was known as Ishara to Syrians, Tanit to Phoenicians, Asher to Israelites, Aushrine to Balts, Ishtar on middle east, Ostara to Germanic people. Asura/ Danu in Sanskrit and Irish (similar to Serbian Zora/Danica), Isis to Egyptians, and Eos to Greeks (PIE form would Ausos)... note that names Ostara and Ishtar are based on word for star....while we in Serbia always say zvezda (star) Danica and zvezda Danica plays still important role in our preserved poetry and collective memory...
I will skip obvious explanations that Ostrogoths (Heruli and Scirri) are Ostara's Goths and why Austria has its name Austria...this doesnot necesserilly mean that Scirii and Heruli were Serbs and Croats (although Letopis popa Dukljanina claims them to be Goths), we are speaking here about old PIE religion and culture shared between many Indo-European countries...
great job with maps and graphs.
I would like to notice that beside populations that are largely mix of M558 and M458 we also have populations that are dominantly M458 or dominantly M558.
This is important because it suggests that before the groups mixed there was individual development of each spreading in some unrelated directions.
From maps of M458 and M558 such directions of spreading that differ are nortwest Germany for M458 and south France for M558
Hence, I think that those are the places where we should search either for origin or for colonies of modern populations that dominantly carry just one of the two groups...
If we look for Czech and Croat related people in northwest Germany we easily find:
1) Chauci - who lived between Frisia and Denmark around river Wesser in area of Bremen.. from Chauci to Česi (or other way around) is small step
2) Cherusci - who lived just southeast of Chauci... now Cherusci is the name whose origin is set by science to word Herut ..this is also not far from Hervati
if we look for Slovene (and Slovak?) in history of south France we easily find:
tribal union Slavi (Salyes ( Greek: Σάλυες) or Salluvi) whose last king was Tutomotulus. He lost battle with Romans and his people saw him as weak guy who missed golden chance...
Now ask anyone in Slovakia about meaning of weird word Tutimutilis or ask Serbs about meaning of word TutaMuta...they will all tell you its sweet way to criticize toddler about his weakness...
after that defeat nothing is known of this tribe...my guess that they moved along Rhone river (around which they lived especially in plane called Druentia (Slavic place name would be Drvenica or place with lot of woods (drvo)) to north fleeing Romans...
curiously Slovaks live around river Hron...its second largest river in Slovakia with length of 298 kilometers... again words Rhone and Hron are very likely of same origin....Rhone comes from Alps and first flows towards west and than towards south...river Hron cmes from Tatra mountains which are highest (like Alps) of Carpathian mountains...first it flows to west than to south... so its not just similarity of names.... its similarity of landscape as well...and furthermore its 300 km long river and only Slovakians all around it which places it in central area of their settlement...
I do not think that south Slavs (Croats are originally not part of this group) lived in south France though... I think they lived in Pannonia...from Slovakia to Greece... "Pan" is a word for (noble) man in Czecho-Slovakian ....so Pannonians would just mean "people"
this also explains notion of Danubian Slavs living around Danube prior to expansion of Roman empire as described in Russian primary chronicle.....
I believe that in such context ancestors of Serbs would be Boii and Ser Boii... historic sources (Byzantine emperor) states that white Serbs came to Balkan from place they call in own language Boika and that the land is beyond Hungary and is neighbouring Franks (used to live in west most Germany prior to expansion) and white Croats (think here also of Cherusci living from Wesser to Elbe).... and that they are also originally from that land... now Boika is of course land of Boii..it is Bohemia/Bavaria...
but they are white Serbs.... in my theory white is northwest of main body of nation (examples are Belarus being northwest of Russia and white Syrians being in Cappadokia northwest of Syria)
so core of Serbs must have been southeast of Boii...only candidates are Scordisci...who are related and perhaps derived from Boii... or are they Ser Boii ...Ser being word for head, core in iranian languages.....
now look at Nepal there lives a nation Sherpa... they are Tibetan related folk but unlike other Tibetans they have significant percentage of R1a and E1b...and they also have circle dance very much like Serbian "kolo" which is quite unusual for that area...
the meaning of their name in their own language is Sher + pa = eastern people...
note "pa" for people, same like I suggested for Pannoninas.... now Sher as eastern... this etymology can be linked to PIE....Slavic Zora = dawn comes from east....
so Ser Boii as eastern Boii (PIE version)? or as main Boii (iranic version)?
in the end look at Serbia now, north most part is Vojvodina...Boii + vodina (waterland)..its area of Danube... if you think Voj is quite different from Boii, well while Serbs still use word boj for battle, derived words have changed to forms starting with "V"...e.g. Croats have bojnik for soldier, Serbs have vojnik...from "bojevati" more modern is "vojevati"....
now following comparison with R1a E1b Sherpa people if pa means people , one would expect Boii in meaning people...
boj = battle in Slavic, vojnik/bojnik = soldier, warrior, so the etymology would be about people warriors... and Bojka would be land of battlefield or borderland... and indeed Boii were displaced from Bohemia by Germanic Marcomani (note that these are also border people cause Mark is border in germanic)...where they move to "deserta of Boii"..."desert mean again border area...
why would Scordisci be Ser Boii?I except for being exactly (southeast of Boii) as where one would expect Ser Boii?
because -isci is just celtic ending and has no meaning for core name...
because 'Sc' i just 'S' same as in Sclaveni
because with previous two its Scordisci -> Sordi
and we know that Serdi is tribal name of people who moved from area of Scordisci to Thrace and became thracanized...So Serdi may have been original..prior to getting celticized form and being written down by Romans or Greeks...
or was it Serbi?
after all if we have in Nepal the Sherpa people that dance circle dance (their word for dance is 'sharwu') alike Serbian "kolo" and call their military leader 'serdar' same as Serbs did, and who have R1a and E1b that merged several thousands year ago, where could have this ancient merging of R1a and E1b happened except in Balkans, in Serbia, or alternatively nearby in Asia minor with candidates being Lydia (ljudi = people in Serbian) with its town Sardis and people named Mushki (mushki = males in Serbian)..think here also of word Moesia (ancient name for Serbia and north Boulgaria) as related to Asia minor tribe Mushki?
As for I2a if one wonders if it is Croat related....I do not think so... I2a is not spread in northwest Germany....i think its origin is around north and west coasts of Black sea and it spread into Balkans when Cimmerians were forced by Scythians (R1b people in my opinion) to move away from there...I think elite of Cimmerians did origin from Sumerians and ordinary people were local I2a (ancient Greeks write about ancient movement of Syrian people across Caucasus and they also write about Syrians = Sumerians and about white Syrians in Kappadokia..while other sources mention Cimmerians in Kappadokia) ...hence a possibility why Cimmerians would be easily merged into Serbs is that they could have culturally derived origin from Sumerians and from their goddess Sarpanit/Zerbanit ...
notice in white Syrians the same "white" naming pattern for northwest most part of land..as for Serbs, Russians (Belarus = white Russia, belo = white), Croats ....i explain it with religion dedicated to light (Zora/Danica is dawn goddess, Sarpanit as well)...white light is night light, hence northwest area is white area like Belarus.. Sarpanit had as it mark crescent (we call it "srpanj" in serbian) and was related to Venus.....look at coat of arms of Serbs...its left and right crescent mirrored around horizontal axis.... why left and right...because it is crescent but it is not Moon..it is Venus...Venus we can see like left and right crescent....Venus is planet that announced day.. same like with it associated dawn goddess did...
In my opinion, goddes Sarpanit was known as Ishara to Syrians, Tanit to Phoenicians, Asher to Israelites, Aushrine to Balts, Ishtar on middle east, Ostara to Germanic people. Asura/ Danu in Sanskrit and Irish (similar to Serbian Zora/Danica), Isis to Egyptians, and Eos to Greeks (PIE form would Ausos)... note that names Ostara and Ishtar are based on word for star....while we in Serbia always say zvezda (star) Danica and zvezda Danica plays still important role in our preserved poetry and collective memory...
I will skip obvious explanations that Ostrogoths (Heruli and Scirri) are Ostara's Goths and why Austria has its name Austria...this doesnot necesserilly mean that Scirii and Heruli were Serbs and Croats (although Letopis popa Dukljanina claims them to be Goths), we are speaking here about old PIE religion and culture shared between many Indo-European countries...
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LeBrok
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I'm sure most what you described is coincidental. There are tens of thousands words in vocabulary of every language. It would be impossible thing not to find similar sounding words when comparing any two languages.