Recognizing ethnicity by the nose.

I disagree for a part.
common stereotypes are not scientific types which themselves cannot be confused with true well achieved "races", even if the concept of "race" could be discussed even for animals.
In my conception types are tries to construct an ideal phenotype which could correspond to some elementary subpopulation in a global mixed one, subpopulation supposed to have lived independantly some times before to took part in the mix, and whose the input could be weighted more or less precisely. It's a risky sport but not without interest. It is based upon states, but not global states concerning a whole pop, where the means don't give too much clues sometimes concerning the making of the mix; that said it requires some other pops less mixed where a type dominates more so that the global mean is closer to the type means. I avow the results are often disappointing, and the "scientists" who competed on the field in past have been more often rather bad! But the metrics method of comparing global means of measures without a bit of typology can confuse us very well and pass over precious details, among them the features rarely accutely reflected by the battery of measures taken.
the nose, as the mouth, more than the mouth, mirrors the mixings very well, so it's very rare to have a "pure type" nose (the more numerous the alleles in cause, the less unity in the pop). That said, among 'europoids' there are some clear tendancies, even if never completely homogenous.
That said, in this thread, we are doing cherry picking, even the ones who are opposed to it as a rule. Chamberlain and others may not be taken as model for their population. And I think there is not everytime ONE gene for say "convex" nose, or "concave" nose or "winding" nose or "beaky nose" or any other case, to take only one aspect. some convex nose can be the homozygotic result of an allele, other convex noses can be the result of an heterozygotic association; sure they are not exactly the same noses, but they will be classified generally as "convex noses". But in nose we have the bones association, the cartilages one, the flesh one, without to speak of the connexion glabella/superior nose bridge.
Some crossings of basic types can produce at the idividual level close enough results spite they are not formed by the very same basic types.
&: this plurifactors construction of the nose makes that every pop shows diverse variants of features, even brothers and sisters what doesn't exclude that some forms prevail in certain pops.


Completely agree with your bolded comment. This thread is more for fun than anything else. In particular, the thought of Hitler looking at the nose of Chamberlain during negotiations for "appeasement" appealed to my ironic and sometimes sardonic sense of humor, as did Oswald Mosley's nose given his speeches.

I do, however, still maintain that upper class Brits tend, more often than lower class ones, to have aquiline, or Greek, or Roman, etc. noses. As I've said before I don't know why. Perhaps influence from France after the Norman conquest, or going all the way back to the first Beakers who arrived?

I'm not saying physical anthropology has no input which should be considered, and didn't mean to insult the whole field or those interested in it. Sorry if that's how it came across.

However, it has always struck me as beyond ludicrous how Nazi "doctors" and "scientists" were going around with their measuring tools to find out who was "Aryan" or not (not too successful, as more than one Jewish child made it into the Hitler Youth), especially given the looks of some of their own leaders.
r
Goebels never struck me as "Aryan" looking, and he was a poor physical specimen to boot, with his club foot, given the pronouncements of the Nazi party. Other children with those handicaps were often gassed. I guess even in Nazi Germany personal contacts mattered. To compensate he married a much larger, very blonde, very German looking woman who was a complete Nazi fanatic, and who killed all their children, before killing herself, so they wouldn't have to live in a world without Hitler and "National Socialism".

The other ludicrous situation was that they had to make all Italians "Aryans" too, and I'm sure there were more than a few who wouldn't have passed the head and facial measurement tests.

It was all a perversion of science, and a complete disgrace, and tainted this sort of work, unfairly, to be sure. Their legal system as well, where their judiciary approved all sorts of horrors permitted by rules from the party, was a disgrace.
 
Completely agree with your bolded comment. This thread is more for fun than anything else. In particular, the thought of Hitler looking at the nose of Chamberlain during negotiations for "appeasement" appealed to my ironic and sometimes sardonic sense of humor, as did Oswald Mosley's nose given his speeches.

I do, however, still maintain that upper class Brits tend, more often than lower class ones, to have aquiline, or Greek, or Roman, etc. noses. As I've said before I don't know why. Perhaps influence from France after the Norman conquest, or going all the way back to the first Beakers who arrived?

I'm not saying physical anthropology has no input which should be considered, and didn't mean to insult the whole field or those interested in it. Sorry if that's how it came across.

However, it has always struck me as beyond ludicrous how Nazi "doctors" and "scientists" were going around with their measuring tools to find out who was "Aryan" or not (not too successful, as more than one Jewish child made it into the Hitler Youth), especially given the looks of some of their own leaders.
r
Goebels never struck me as "Aryan" looking, and he was a poor physical specimen to boot, with his club foot, given the pronouncements of the Nazi party. Other children with those handicaps were often gassed. I guess even in Nazi Germany personal contacts mattered. To compensate he married a much larger, very blonde, very German looking woman who was a complete Nazi fanatic, and who killed all their children, before killing herself, so they wouldn't have to live in a world without Hitler and "National Socialism".

The other ludicrous situation was that they had to make all Italians "Aryans" too, and I'm sure there were more than a few who wouldn't have passed the head and facial measurement tests.

It was all a perversion of science, and a complete disgrace, and tainted this sort of work, unfairly, to be sure. Their legal system as well, where their judiciary approved all sorts of horrors permitted by rules from the party, was a disgrace.

OK with your last explanations. I was only trying to moderate the absolute or extreme affirmations we could gather from some posts.
 
I disagree for a part.
common stereotypes are not scientific types which themselves cannot be confused with true well achieved "races", even if the concept of "race" could be discussed even for animals.
In my conception types are tries to construct an ideal phenotype which could correspond to some elementary subpopulation in a global mixed one, subpopulation supposed to have lived independantly some times before to took part in the mix, and whose the input could be weighted more or less precisely. It's a risky sport but not without interest. It is based upon states, but not global states concerning a whole pop, where the means don't give too much clues sometimes concerning the making of the mix; that said it requires some other pops less mixed where a type dominates more so that the global mean is closer to the type means. I avow the results are often disappointing, and the "scientists" who competed on the field in past have been more often rather bad! But the metrics method of comparing global means of measures without a bit of typology can confuse us very well and pass over precious details, among them the features rarely accutely reflected by the battery of measures taken.
the nose, as the mouth, more than the mouth, mirrors the mixings very well, so it's very rare to have a "pure type" nose (the more numerous the alleles in cause, the less unity in the pop). That said, among 'europoids' there are some clear tendancies, even if never completely homogenous.
That said, in this thread, we are doing cherry picking, even the ones who are opposed to it as a rule. Chamberlain and others may not be taken as model for their population. And I think there is not everytime ONE gene for say "convex" nose, or "concave" nose or "winding" nose or "beaky nose" or any other case, to take only one aspect. some convex nose can be the homozygotic result of an allele, other convex noses can be the result of an heterozygotic association; sure they are not exactly the same noses, but they will be classified generally as "convex noses". But in nose we have the bones association, the cartilages one, the flesh one, without to speak of the connexion glabella/superior nose bridge.
Some crossings of basic types can produce at the idividual level close enough results spite they are not formed by the very same basic types.
&: this plurifactors construction of the nose makes that every pop shows diverse variants of features, even brothers and sisters what doesn't exclude that some forms prevail in certain pops.
how do you think did this noseshape start to exist?
swiss
njhgg.jpg
french
Eric-Buffetaut-portrait-2014.jpg


it looks similar to the one of Couchepin and it's not a nose type common among jewish people even if people might guess it is. it's way more common in some parts of europe actually.
what would be the "pure" types underlying this nose shape?
maybe a bit neanderthal?
nea.jpg
 
how do you think did this noseshape start to exist?
swiss
View attachment 12291
french
Eric-Buffetaut-portrait-2014.jpg


it looks similar to the one of Couchepin and it's not a nose type common among jewish people even if people might guess it is. it's way more common in some parts of europe actually.
what would be the "pure" types underlying this nose shape?
maybe a bit neanderthal?
nea.jpg

I don't see too evident input of a mixing in these noses, uneasy to say, indeed.
In ancient posts, I wrote abut homozygoty and heterozygoty. I was not so clear, even if people seemed understanding my points.
In fact in my thought, the most surprising results in crossings appear not when there is heterozygoty at every mesh of the chain of acting alleles (at the contrary even) but when there is homozygoty ("uni-type") at every pair of alleles, allied to a perturbated ("multi-types") chain: here I can expect the most surprising results, very often judged more or less ugly because it doesn't respond to a mainstream social/cultural conception of beauty. EG, disruption of homogenous ethnic origins between the nose parts (bone, cartilage, muscle/flesh, nostrils...
It's a personal view, a try to understand some features, not scientific. But it could explain why very often some population where a slighty (numerically) dominant feature is taken as an ethnic typical pattern (like Armenian for noses) we find everytime an opposite trend for concave noses or at least for noses with very different features, not "average" in the common sense. This is common too in other pops, BTW. The most homogenous pops for features show rather less "typical" features.
 
DAgHO5N.jpg


Gabriele D'Annunzio, the famous Italian poet, former-dictator of Fiume (today Rijeka, Croatia), and man who invented fascism, had a Roman nose.

Gabriele D'Annunzio also believed himself to be descended from the ancient Greeks and Romans. For that, he was right; he was from Abruzzo.
 
I've been watching a PBS detective series called Endeavor, about the young years of "Morse". I finally say a REAL Roman nose. If you want to see it in the "round", it's Season 8, episode 2.

There aren't that many pictures of him, and most are not real profile pictures.

MV5BY2IyYzdjOGEtOWEwZS00N2NiLTkwMzAtOGQ2OGQzMzdjMmRjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjQwMDg0Ng@@._V1_FMjpg_UY320_.jpg


He's an English actor named Joe Gallina, clearly of Italian or part Italian extraction:
Joe.jpg


Not my type, too brutal, but he looks as if he came down from a plinth of a Greek or Roman warrior.

MV5BNzZiNWVlYjMtODI3Yi00ZmY4LTk5YTItMjA1NDY5MWVmNGY3XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjQwMDg0Ng@@._V1_FMjpg_UY853_.jpg



Another English actor of part Italian ancestry (the other half is Austrian): Mark Strong.

It looks a bit like Napoleon's nose to me.

e31e7399aa147161981f190ab4103e32--mark-strong-roanoke.jpg


In Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy:
mark-strong-tinker-tailor-soldier-spy.jpg


mark_strong_as_lex_luthor_by_seaserpentine-d6ylh1k.jpg
 
agree he look like a roman warrior
gallina surname is italian :)
 
You can see posts before they're submitted???
 
There aren't that many pictures of him, and most are not real profile pictures.

MV5BY2IyYzdjOGEtOWEwZS00N2NiLTkwMzAtOGQ2OGQzMzdjMmRjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjQwMDg0Ng@@._V1_FMjpg_UY320_.jpg

Superman is an extraterrestrial alien from the planet Krypton.
 
Superman is an extraterrestrial alien from the planet Krypton.

Well, don't want to spoil anything, but he's not really Superman, just like Johnny Depp didn't really have scissors for hands. :)
 
5DF0Ri6.png


What kind of nose did Cesare Lombroso have? It sort of looks like a lumpy potato.

The great irony of this man is that his works promoted racism, through facial measurements suggesting natural-born criminality. But had he lived in the 1940s, he would have been exterminated in the Holocaust for being a Jew. Which is what happened to the Jewish Italian Fascists when the Nazis set up the puppet-government in Northern Italy.
 
5DF0Ri6.png


What kind of nose did Cesare Lombroso have? It sort of looks like a lumpy potato.

The great irony of this man is that his works promoted racism, through facial measurements suggesting natural-born criminality. But had he lived in the 1940s, he would have been exterminated in the Holocaust for being a Jew. Which is what happened to the Jewish Italian Fascists when the Nazis set up the puppet-government in Northern Italy.


there is a chance he was e1b1b1 ( we have our noses ) :LOL:
why because the lumbroso from tunis who can trace there line to 17th centurey
livorno fall on ( sephardi branch ) of e-m84

if he as lombroso was related to the lumbroso than he was e1b1b1
is he realy considered the father of criminology ?
if i was sure he was e1b1b1 i would definitely had him to the famous e1b1b1
section but i am not sure
 
there is a chance he was e1b1b1 ( we have our noses ) :LOL:
why because the lumbroso from tunis who can trace there line to 17th centurey
livorno fall on ( sephardi branch ) of e-m84

if he as lombroso was related to the lumbroso than he was e1b1b1
is he realy considered the father of criminology ?
if i was sure he was e1b1b1 i would definitely had him to the famous e1b1b1
section but i am not sure

Does he having any living relatives on the male-side to confirm?
 
Does he having any living relatives on the male-side to confirm?

his grandchild in geni site is
cesare lombroso ( he died in 2012)
https://www.childneurologysociety.org/memoriam/cesare-lombroso-md-phd/
but his 3 children names are private (and i dont know if any of his 3 children is a male)


p.s
the thing is even if we knew a paternal descendants of this lombroso
it is very hard to convince someone to get tested
from my experience
there are some people who you even
say you would pay for there test
and they refused
 
Based on your avatar, I don't think you have a nose that looks like that.

if his theory was that certain nose shapes and sizes
are connected to criminal behavior
than i have to admit it is pseudoscience from my point of view
 
5DF0Ri6.png


What kind of nose did Cesare Lombroso have? It sort of looks like a lumpy potato.

The great irony of this man is that his works promoted racism, through facial measurements suggesting natural-born criminality. But had he lived in the 1940s, he would have been exterminated in the Holocaust for being a Jew. Which is what happened to the Jewish Italian Fascists when the Nazis set up the puppet-government in Northern Italy.
I was trying to think whose nose his reminds me of. Then it hit me:
View attachment 13830
Karl_Malden_-_autographed.jpg
 

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