Question R1B U152 L2 MF100284 in Turkey, what is the possible origin?

[clansmen]

Hello,

I am from northwest anatolia turkey, and my ethnicity is anatolian turkish.

Y-DNA haplogroup: R1b U152-L2-DF110-Y3964, likely MF100284 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-MF100284/

This deep clade has a few examples from Chechnya and Finland (ethnic italian), but most are from Germany, France, and England.

Additionally, in the 2019 paper by Antonio et al., 6 ancient DNA samples from this haplogroup were found—two from Cisalpine Celts (Cenomani tribe in northeast Italy), and four from Roman Empire cemeteries in central Italy.

I suspect this could be related to Western Scythian,Galatian, Roman expansion or Crusades.

I have added some maps about my deep clades.

A few important things about my hometown (listed chronologically):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Crusade prevalent but small sized conversion events due to lack of supplies, and some rivalry events of the orthodox church. ( AD 1150s)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Xerigordos 6000 crusaders (mostly lombardian and alemanni) converted to Islam (AD 1097)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roussel_de_Bailleul this norman mercenary leader and his 3000 men established a small frankish kingdom on the old galatian lands and he and his guys allied with seljuks against to byzantine empire. ( AD 1080s)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatians_(people) two celtic tribes from southwest france migrated to central and northwest anatolia and established a well-known celtic region (278 BC). (I see only one sample which belongs to DF27)

 

[Fitis]

Hello,

I am a Frenchman belonging to branch MF100284. I am very interested in your information as I was only aware of one Roman sample (Mausoleo di Augusto R33, Antonio et al. 2019) and one Cenomani sample (US3159, Laffranchi et al. 2024). What are the other samples?

Did you confirm that the Finnish sample was of Italian ethnicity?

For my part, my sub-clade (FTA30946) seems to be rather Gallo-Roman and mostly found in France.

Interestingly, my FTDNA matches (BIG-Y or STR + Y3964 match if no BIG-Y performed) often seem to come from Normandy, including the English who descend from a Norman nobleman named “De Bray” who accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066.

What test did you perform? Whole genome? Perhaps you can go further in analyzing your SNPs if you haven't done a BIG-Y or WGS?

Thank you for your reply.

 

[clansmen]

Hello,

I am a Frenchman belonging to branch MF100284. I am very interested in your information as I was only aware of one Roman sample (Mausoleo di Augusto R33, Antonio et al. 2019) and one Cenomani sample (US3159, Laffranchi et al. 2024). What are the other samples?

Did you confirm that the Finnish sample was of Italian ethnicity?

For my part, my sub-clade (FTA30946) seems to be rather Gallo-Roman and mostly found in France.

Interestingly, my FTDNA matches (BIG-Y or STR + Y3964 match if no BIG-Y performed) often seem to come from Normandy, including the English who descend from a Norman nobleman named “De Bray” who accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066.

What test did you perform? Whole genome? Perhaps you can go further in analyzing your SNPs if you haven't done a BIG-Y or WGS?

Thank you for your reply.

Hii cousin;

I saw an Italian-Finnish guy on this website: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-MF100284/

I have a lot of MF100284 matches from France, especially the Ramey family (all guys are my Y12 matches).

I did Y111 and family finder SNP pack, now waiting for Big Y results.

My Y37 and Y25 matches are from Britain, but they are post-William Conqueror families who possibly migrated from Normandy. (such as stuarts)

Do you have any potential answers for me? We are a small family compared to other Sub R1B families.

 

[Fitis]

Hi,

I understand why you think the Finnish sample is also Italian, but it's the name of a Finnish province: “Itä-Suomen lääni”.

Great if you're doing the BIG Y!

You have to be careful with the interpretation with only 12 STR markers, there may be very old relatives or even false positives. Do you have matches with at least 37 STR markers and positive for Y3964 or DF110?

I found you on the FTDNA groups and on the 111-marker STR test, we have 30 differences and you have 33/34 differences with the two Rameys who did a 111-marker test. That's quite a lot, and even if we are necessarily related, our common ancestor probably goes back a very long way, possibly more than 2 millennia. For example, I created a branch with another person who made the BIG Y dated around 350 AD, and I have 24 differences with this person at the 111 STR marker level. This may give some idea, even if STRs are not accurate for exploring very distant lineages, unlike SNPs.

It's really your BIG Y results that will shed some light on this. Perhaps you're on a basal line and that would be more compatible with the Celtic/Galatian or Roman hypothesis or even older in Bronze Age. But that wouldn't rule out a more recent Western lineage that hasn't yet been tested in other people. Please keep me informed of your results.

For your information, a new ancient sample Y9364+ should soon be published, dating from the Middle Bronze Age and found in Trentino. This seems to confirm the region of origin of our haplogroup.

https://www.eurac.edu/en/institutes-centers/institute-for-mummy-studies/projects/prehistoricalps

PS. I have tried to contact all my matches (with at least 37 STR markers) positive for Y3964 to convince them to do a BIG Y but have only had one positive response so far.

 

[clansmen]

Hi,

I understand why you think the Finnish sample is also Italian, but it's the name of a Finnish province: “Itä-Suomen lääni”.

Great if you're doing the BIG Y!

You have to be careful with the interpretation with only 12 STR markers, there may be very old relatives or even false positives. Do you have matches with at least 37 STR markers and positive for Y3964 or DF110?

I found you on the FTDNA groups and on the 111-marker STR test, we have 30 differences and you have 33/34 differences with the two Rameys who did a 111-marker test. That's quite a lot, and even if we are necessarily related, our common ancestor probably goes back a very long way, possibly more than 2 millennia. For example, I created a branch with another person who made the BIG Y dated around 350 AD, and I have 24 differences with this person at the 111 STR marker level. This may give some idea, even if STRs are not accurate for exploring very distant lineages, unlike SNPs.

It's really your BIG Y results that will shed some light on this. Perhaps you're on a basal line and that would be more compatible with the Celtic/Galatian or Roman hypothesis or even older in Bronze Age. But that wouldn't rule out a more recent Western lineage that hasn't yet been tested in other people. Please keep me informed of your results.

For your information, a new ancient sample Y9364+ should soon be published, dating from the Middle Bronze Age and found in Trentino. This seems to confirm the region of origin of our haplogroup.

https://www.eurac.edu/en/institutes-centers/institute-for-mummy-studies/projects/prehistoricalps

PS. I have tried to contact all my matches (with at least 37 STR markers) positive for Y3964 to convince them to do a BIG Y but have only had one positive response so far.

ah thank you,

I misunderstood that suomi sample;


Yes, I am waiting for Big Y results since the kit batched time at the beginning of August.

I have y25 y37 matches from around alpine region but none of them Y3964.

best regards,

 

[Fitis]

Hello,
Great news, you are in my sub-branch!
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTA30946/story
But as I suspected, it goes back a long time: our most recent common ancestor should date from around -750 BC according to FTDNA. However, FTDNA has not yet fully updated the Block Tree.
The Galatian hypothesis seems very interesting and probable to me in this context even if it's impossible to conclude. A Roman ancestor may also be possible.
On the BIG-Y test, you are the third closest person to me after my father and an American with ancestors in Normandy with whom I have TMRCA (the most recent common ancestor) around 350/450 AD.
It would be great if you could upload your data to YFull to see their TMRCA date.
Best regards

 

[clansmen]

Hi mate,

Yes, I saw this.

However, on my page, I'm seeing this:

On the y3964 page, I see two samples from Turkey (previously, there was only one).

So, I'm a bit confused—could it be me or someone else from Turkey?

I have also to say that; my big Y was batched 7 weeks ago,

 

[Fitis]

You're right, there seems to be a second Turkish person now.

You were the only one a few days ago. 7 weeks seems quite fast for BIG-Y results indeed but you'd already been tested for a Y-111, so maybe it's faster.

Even if the result isn't out yet, try clicking on the "Block Tree" or "Haplotree § SNPs". If you have access to it and are in this sub-branch, it's you.

If not, it must be the new sample from Turkey (not sure). But it's possible that you're also from this sub-branch and will create a new, more recent sub-branch with this person. Either way, it will be very interesting. We have to wait a few days/weeks for the full update.

 

[clansmen]

You're right, there seems to be a second Turkish person now.

You were the only one a few days ago. 7 weeks seems quite fast for BIG-Y results indeed but you'd already been tested for a Y-111, so maybe it's faster.

Even if the result isn't out yet, try clicking on the "Block Tree" or "Haplotree § SNPs". If you have access to it and are in this sub-branch, it's you.

If not, it must be the new sample from Turkey (not sure). But it's possible that you're also from this sub-branch and will create a new, more recent sub-branch with this person. Either way, it will be very interesting. We have to wait a few days/weeks for the full update.

another hypothesis is this result belongs me but just the system is waiting for manuel control before posting results.

 

[Fitis]

Yes, it would be surprising that two Turkish people should be on the same sub-branch and took the test at virtually the same time.

 

[clansmen]

Evet, aynı alt dalda okuyan ve neredeyse aynı anda sınava giren iki Türk vatandaşının olması şaşırtıcı olurdu.

Could you send an email to me via ftdna, we are y12 matches probably

 

[Fitis]

Unfortunately, I've checked, you don't appear in any of my STR matches, including at Y-12 level. We have at least two differences at this level, above the FTDNA threshold so I don't have access to your contact via FTDNA.