Question Regarding My Albanian Ancestry, Albanians in General, and Haplogroup (J-L70)

Valsion

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Hello,

I wanted to create this thread to see if I could have some assistance in deciphering the ancestry of my family as well as understanding the contemporary ancestry of the Albanian ethnicity.

I would like to give an introduction regarding my family’s background, and I would like to share some of the ancestry-related results that I have obtained from various ancestry testing websites.

My father’s surname is Kamberi and he comes from Peladhi, Diber, Albania. As far as I know, both sides of his family are ethnically Albanian. My mother’s surname is Dimo and she comes from Hocisht, Korce, Albania. Her father was ethnically Albanian and her mother was half Albanian (paternally) and half Greek (maternally). Her great grandmother hails from Thessaloniki, Greece.

Below are some results that I've obtained from various ancestry testing websites.

AncestryDNA
AncestryDNA.png


23andMe
23andMe_RK_Map_09182024.png

23andMe_RK_Paternal_Haplogroup_09182024.png

23andMe_RK_Maternal_Haplogroup_09182024.png


FTDNA Big Y-700
FTDNA_Haplogroup.png

FTDNA_Haplogroup_Path_2.png


Haplogroup Path:
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25>Z438>CTS1192>L70>PF5430>Z435>Z2177>Z28698>FT370140>FT371266

IllustrativeDNA
Please see below the G25 Coordinates of my parents and myself.

Myself_scaled,0.119514,0.144205,0.018479,-0.009044,0.020619,-0.006972,0.00423,0.004384,-0.006136,0.010387,0.001299,-0.001049,-0.002081,0.004679,-0.011401,0.005701,0.015646,0.001014,0.005531,-0.001126,-0.009733,-0.006925,0.001479,0.00012,-0.004071

Father_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.009428,-0.019703,0.031083,-0.013108,0.000235,-0.004384,0.000818,0.027153,0.005684,0.003597,-0.010258,0.009221,-0.016558,-0.004641,0.007562,0.005954,0.002137,-0.008754,-0.006364,-0.000989,-0.006532,-0.001566,-0.001317

Mother_scaled,0.119514,0.146236,0.01697,-0.009367,0.026774,-0.008367,0,0.000231,0.001841,0.020957,0.004872,0.003597,-0.007284,0.001101,-0.016829,0.012861,0.029858,0.003674,0.002137,-0.000375,-0.008111,-0.008285,-0.002835,0.001928,-0.002155

Please see below some PCA plots from Vahaduo that I used to observe where my family and Albanian populations through the ages plot.
Vahaduo_ Global 25 Views_1.png

Vahaduo_ Global 25 Views_2.png


Questions
From my AncestryDNA results, I see that I am not as Greek & Albanian as my father but I am more than my mother. I also noticed that I have Baltic related ancestry but neither of my parents have this ancestry, is there a reason as to why I randomly obtained this Baltic ancestry? From my 23andMe results, I only have my results and did not do this test for my parents. If I am ethnically Albanian, why do I have the greatest genetic affinity to the Peloponnese region more than to Albania? After finding out that my paternal haplogroup was J2a-L70, I became interested in learning more about it. After looking over quite a lot of 23andMe profiles with Albanian surnames whom were categorized as DNA relatives, I never came across this haplogroup. I had even looked at profiles of people with Greek surnames that were categorized as DNA relatives and I never came across this specific haplogroup. Most of the Albanian profiles that I looked over had a paternal haplogroup of E (E-V13), J2b, R, I or on occasion haplogroup G. I had tried researching J2a-L70 quite a bit but did not find much information related to ancient populations related with this haplogroup. The only stuff I generally came across was a lot of unscientific and downright schizophrenic posts about it being related to the "line of Abraham" or being "ancient Israelite" so I went ahead and took the FTDNA Big Y-700. The results indicate that my paternal haplogroup is J-FT371266. Someone on 23andMe who was kind enough to translate the FTDNA nomenclature of my haplogroup to a general one stated that the general nomenclature is J-Y126749. Can someone please explain to me if my haplogroup is related to some ancient European population or if it descends from an ancient European population? Is there a possible explanation as to how this haplgroup ended up in the north region of contemporary Albania becaues I noticed on 23andMe that J2a is somewhat uncommon in Albania? After looking at the PCA plot from Vahaduo, I had some questions regarding Albanians in general and regarding Albanian continuity from a particular population called Illyrians. My understanding is that the Albania_IA sample is regarded as an Illyrian sample yet what I notice is that contemporary Albanians do not cluster with this sample. In fact, I see that some regions of Italy, Spain and Portugal cluster closer to Illyrians than do contemporary Albanians. When I look at the PCA plot, it seems Illyrians are plotted at an intermediate between contemporary Bosnians and contemporary Sardinians. If this is the case, what exactly are Albanians? What happened to Albanians that made them shift away from Illyrians? If I am interpreting the PCA plot correctly, there was a steppe-like population that went to South Eastern Europe, mixed with farmer populations and that formed the Albanian_EBA. Afterwards, there was more mixing with the farmer populations over time and this created the Albanian_BA_IA, Albanian_MBA, and Albanian_IA (Illyrians). Then, something happened in which for some reason, Illyrians got mixed up with some Levantine-like (non-European) population and this represents Albanian_Medieval. After that, the Modern_Albanian forms through some sort of mixing with Slavic people post the medieval era. Is this correct? Does this imply that it cannot be claimed that there is continuity between Illyrians and contemporary Albanians? Please note, I may be interpreting PCA plots completely wrong as I am not an expert regarding them or population genetics and would like to apologize ahead of time for any offense regarding this interpretation as I know Illyrian-ness is a touchy subject in the Balkans.

This may be somewhat of a vague question but do my genetics or that of my parents cluster with any ancient European culture? In addition, is there any information that can be deciphered regarding my connection to Indo-Europeans through my G25 coordinates? How related are my parents and I to Indo-Europeans relative to other ancient populations?

If any additional information/graphic from IllustrativeDNA would help, please let me know. I also have my DNA uploaded onto DNAGenics. Let me know if more information regarding my family history would also help.

Thank you for your time!
 
Thanks for the interesting information. Regarding J-L70, we still don't have a clear picture. The oldest ancient samples until now, are from a roman cultural context, mostly in the Italian peninsula (Marche, Rome), and one from upper Moesia (Viminacium). That's why is reasonable to propose that it was, at least in part, spread by romans. Today is one of the most relevant clades in southern Italy, and spread all over the Mediterranean, specially on the northern shores. Of course is relevant to analyze your specific subclade. An Hypothesis that considers a Path for L70, at least for some of its subclades in Europe is the following: Anatolia-Aegean-Italian peninsula. Probably ancient greeks and romans, played a relevant role expanding some of J-L70's subclades. More ancient samples will help us to relate this clade to other archaic European cultures, besides romans. Best Regards
 
Hello,

I wanted to create this thread to see if I could have some assistance in deciphering the ancestry of my family as well as understanding the contemporary ancestry of the Albanian ethnicity.

I would like to give an introduction regarding my family’s background, and I would like to share some of the ancestry-related results that I have obtained from various ancestry testing websites.

My father’s surname is Kamberi and he comes from Peladhi, Diber, Albania. As far as I know, both sides of his family are ethnically Albanian. My mother’s surname is Dimo and she comes from Hocisht, Korce, Albania. Her father was ethnically Albanian and her mother was half Albanian (paternally) and half Greek (maternally). Her great grandmother hails from Thessaloniki, Greece.

Below are some results that I've obtained from various ancestry testing websites.

AncestryDNA
View attachment 16597

23andMe
View attachment 16598
View attachment 16599
View attachment 16600

FTDNA Big Y-700
View attachment 16602
View attachment 16603

Haplogroup Path:
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25>Z438>CTS1192>L70>PF5430>Z435>Z2177>Z28698>FT370140>FT371266

IllustrativeDNA
Please see below the G25 Coordinates of my parents and myself.

Myself_scaled,0.119514,0.144205,0.018479,-0.009044,0.020619,-0.006972,0.00423,0.004384,-0.006136,0.010387,0.001299,-0.001049,-0.002081,0.004679,-0.011401,0.005701,0.015646,0.001014,0.005531,-0.001126,-0.009733,-0.006925,0.001479,0.00012,-0.004071

Father_scaled,0.126344,0.152329,0.009428,-0.019703,0.031083,-0.013108,0.000235,-0.004384,0.000818,0.027153,0.005684,0.003597,-0.010258,0.009221,-0.016558,-0.004641,0.007562,0.005954,0.002137,-0.008754,-0.006364,-0.000989,-0.006532,-0.001566,-0.001317

Mother_scaled,0.119514,0.146236,0.01697,-0.009367,0.026774,-0.008367,0,0.000231,0.001841,0.020957,0.004872,0.003597,-0.007284,0.001101,-0.016829,0.012861,0.029858,0.003674,0.002137,-0.000375,-0.008111,-0.008285,-0.002835,0.001928,-0.002155

Please see below some PCA plots from Vahaduo that I used to observe where my family and Albanian populations through the ages plot.
View attachment 16604
View attachment 16605

Questions
From my AncestryDNA results, I see that I am not as Greek & Albanian as my father but I am more than my mother. I also noticed that I have Baltic related ancestry but neither of my parents have this ancestry, is there a reason as to why I randomly obtained this Baltic ancestry? From my 23andMe results, I only have my results and did not do this test for my parents. If I am ethnically Albanian, why do I have the greatest genetic affinity to the Peloponnese region more than to Albania? After finding out that my paternal haplogroup was J2a-L70, I became interested in learning more about it. After looking over quite a lot of 23andMe profiles with Albanian surnames whom were categorized as DNA relatives, I never came across this haplogroup. I had even looked at profiles of people with Greek surnames that were categorized as DNA relatives and I never came across this specific haplogroup. Most of the Albanian profiles that I looked over had a paternal haplogroup of E (E-V13), J2b, R, I or on occasion haplogroup G. I had tried researching J2a-L70 quite a bit but did not find much information related to ancient populations related with this haplogroup. The only stuff I generally came across was a lot of unscientific and downright schizophrenic posts about it being related to the "line of Abraham" or being "ancient Israelite" so I went ahead and took the FTDNA Big Y-700. The results indicate that my paternal haplogroup is J-FT371266. Someone on 23andMe who was kind enough to translate the FTDNA nomenclature of my haplogroup to a general one stated that the general nomenclature is J-Y126749. Can someone please explain to me if my haplogroup is related to some ancient European population or if it descends from an ancient European population? Is there a possible explanation as to how this haplgroup ended up in the north region of contemporary Albania becaues I noticed on 23andMe that J2a is somewhat uncommon in Albania? After looking at the PCA plot from Vahaduo, I had some questions regarding Albanians in general and regarding Albanian continuity from a particular population called Illyrians. My understanding is that the Albania_IA sample is regarded as an Illyrian sample yet what I notice is that contemporary Albanians do not cluster with this sample. In fact, I see that some regions of Italy, Spain and Portugal cluster closer to Illyrians than do contemporary Albanians. When I look at the PCA plot, it seems Illyrians are plotted at an intermediate between contemporary Bosnians and contemporary Sardinians. If this is the case, what exactly are Albanians? What happened to Albanians that made them shift away from Illyrians? If I am interpreting the PCA plot correctly, there was a steppe-like population that went to South Eastern Europe, mixed with farmer populations and that formed the Albanian_EBA. Afterwards, there was more mixing with the farmer populations over time and this created the Albanian_BA_IA, Albanian_MBA, and Albanian_IA (Illyrians). Then, something happened in which for some reason, Illyrians got mixed up with some Levantine-like (non-European) population and this represents Albanian_Medieval. After that, the Modern_Albanian forms through some sort of mixing with Slavic people post the medieval era. Is this correct? Does this imply that it cannot be claimed that there is continuity between Illyrians and contemporary Albanians? Please note, I may be interpreting PCA plots completely wrong as I am not an expert regarding them or population genetics and would like to apologize ahead of time for any offense regarding this interpretation as I know Illyrian-ness is a touchy subject in the Balkans.

This may be somewhat of a vague question but do my genetics or that of my parents cluster with any ancient European culture? In addition, is there any information that can be deciphered regarding my connection to Indo-Europeans through my G25 coordinates? How related are my parents and I to Indo-Europeans relative to other ancient populations?

If any additional information/graphic from IllustrativeDNA would help, please let me know. I also have my DNA uploaded onto DNAGenics. Let me know if more information regarding my family history would also help.

Thank you for your time!
Hi Valsion,

I just sent you a direct message to your inbox. I am also from Diber!

Hope you hear back.

Best,
Dibran
 
"If I am ethnically Albanian, why do I have the greatest genetic affinity to the Peloponnese region more than to Albania?"

Many Albanians settled in the Peloponnese in the Middle Ages. An estimate has it at 58% Greek and 41% Albanian (if memory serves), according to an analysis of an old Ottoman census from the 1400's or so.

As for J-L70, it's one of my great-grandfathers' haplogroup. Also waiting for the "smoking gun," the sample(s) that reveal more of its ancient origin. It was found in ancient Italy and Balkans, but with a different autosomal profile than the locals (more southern/Anatolian/Thracian or Hellenistic). They seemed like migrants to the areas they were found, which would not be surprising, since it was the Roman era.
 
Thanks for the interesting information. Regarding J-L70, we still don't have a clear picture. The oldest ancient samples until now, are from a roman cultural context, mostly in the Italian peninsula (Marche, Rome), and one from upper Moesia (Viminacium). That's why is reasonable to propose that it was, at least in part, spread by romans. Today is one of the most relevant clades in southern Italy, and spread all over the Mediterranean, specially on the northern shores. Of course is relevant to analyze your specific subclade. An Hypothesis that considers a Path for L70, at least for some of its subclades in Europe is the following: Anatolia-Aegean-Italian peninsula. Probably ancient greeks and romans, played a relevant role expanding some of J-L70's subclades. More ancient samples will help us to relate this clade to other archaic European cultures, besides romans. Best Regards

Thank you, Juan. Do you happen to have a source that I can read regarding the oldest J2a-L70 found? Are there any papers or threads on this website that discuss this? I was looking at the following (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#subclades) and was able to trace my haplogroup path up until Z2177 but then the phylogenetic tree of haplogroups stops with "Iron Age" and then "Roman?". Are there any more recent phylogenetic tree of haplogroups as it appears this one was made in 2016?

Please see below my haplogroup path:

J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25>Z438>CTS1192>L70>PF5430>Z435>Z2177>Z28698>FT370140>FT371266.

This is what I saw from the Eupedia link above regarding Z435:

"Z435 was formed about 3,600 years ago and has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years (± 300 years). The latter corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. This could either mean that Z435 was one of the founding Italic lineages, or that it was already in Italy and was assimilated by the Italic tribes. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Portugal, Spain, France, Britain, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, Tunisia or Lebanon, all regions colonised by the Romans. Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old. It has various subclades of its own which are scattered today around Italy (northern Italy, Tuscany, Latium, Sicily, Sardinia) and in places like Switzerland, south-west Germany, Britain, Spain, Romania, Greece, Turkey and Syria - also all these regions were part of the Roman Empire. Italy has by far the highest concentration of Z2177 of any country."

Does this imply that my haplogroup is related to Italics that came down and settled in the Itallian peninsula? I had thought that the Italics that would colonize the Itallian peninsula would likely have had an "R" related haplogroup since they were Indo-Europeans. The quote above also states that it could have been present already in Italy before the itallics came, would those have been Greeks? This is very interesting because of my father apparently having a very small amount of Itallian ancestry. If all of this is true, I am guessing my paternal line became Albanianized or Balkanized over time. I am not sure what the Italian source in my father's ancestry in a location like Peladhi, Diber, Albania would have been. I wish I could have tested my grandfather before he had passed to see if he would have more Itallian ancestry to confirm this.

Hi Valsion,

I just sent you a direct message to your inbox. I am also from Diber!

Hope you hear back.

Best,
Dibran

Thank you, Dibran.

"If I am ethnically Albanian, why do I have the greatest genetic affinity to the Peloponnese region more than to Albania?"

Many Albanians settled in the Peloponnese in the Middle Ages. An estimate has it at 58% Greek and 41% Albanian (if memory serves), according to an analysis of an old Ottoman census from the 1400's or so.

As for J-L70, it's one of my great-grandfathers' haplogroup. Also waiting for the "smoking gun," the sample(s) that reveal more of its ancient origin. It was found in ancient Italy and Balkans, but with a different autosomal profile than the locals (more southern/Anatolian/Thracian or Hellenistic). They seemed like migrants to the areas they were found, which would not be surprising, since it was the Roman era.

If you don't mind sharing, do you happen to know the ancestral details regarding your great-grandfather? Was the J-L70 found during the Republic era or the Imperial era of the Roman Empire?

I wanted to share some more detail from IllustrativeDNA in case they may help answer some of the questions I had above or from my previous post in this thread.

For myself, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results, HG & Farmer, Modern Genetic Distance and then lastly Ancient Genetic Distance. There are "unsupervised" models. Let me know if those may assist.

RK_1.png


RK_2.png


RK_3.png


RK_4.png


For my father, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results, HG & Farmer, Modern Genetic Distance and then lastly Ancient Genetic Distance. Please note, for the periodical results, the timeline locations are similar to mine (for example, Bronze age timeline is located at the same corner). You'll notice that my father and I have the same composition for bronze age timeline and for HG & Farmer makeup.

PK_1.png

PK_2.png
PK_3.png
PK_4.png


For my mother, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results and HG & Farmer. Modern Genetic Distance and Ancient Genetic Distance will not be included because I can only attach 10 images. Please note, for the periodical results, the timeline locations are similar to mine (for example, Bronze age timeline is located at the same corner).

MK_1.png
MK_2.png


Thank you for your time!
 
Last edited:
"If I am ethnically Albanian, why do I have the greatest genetic affinity to the Peloponnese region more than to Albania?"

Many Albanians settled in the Peloponnese in the Middle Ages. An estimate has it at 58% Greek and 41% Albanian (if memory serves), according to an analysis of an old Ottoman census from the 1400's or so.

As for J-L70, it's one of my great-grandfathers' haplogroup. Also waiting for the "smoking gun," the sample(s) that reveal more of its ancient origin. It was found in ancient Italy and Balkans, but with a different autosomal profile than the locals (more southern/Anatolian/Thracian or Hellenistic). They seemed like migrants to the areas they were found, which would not be surprising, since it was the Roman era.
I mostly agree with you, just one comment, the Marche (Urbino Bivio) sample, was autosomally local, and some others, specially on the Italian peninsula were considered broadly "southern italians". An interesting case is the JL24 from an Etruscan place close to Bologna, probably from the roman imperial period, although we don't know if it was J-L70 or not, but it was autosomally considered as "imperial_bologna", that is locals with a southern Italian imput, probably descendant of a roman colonist, by male line. Today JL70 is the only J2 found in almost every region in Italy, including the northern regions, with a larger concentration and diversity on the central southern regions.
 
Thank you, Juan. Do you happen to have a source that I can read regarding the oldest J2a-L70 found? Are there any papers or threads on this website that discuss this? I was looking at the following (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#subclades) and was able to trace my haplogroup path up until Z2177 but then the phylogenetic tree of haplogroups stops with "Iron Age" and then "Roman?". Are there any more recent phylogenetic tree of haplogroups as it appears this one was made in 2016?

Please see below my haplogroup path:

J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25>Z438>CTS1192>L70>PF5430>Z435>Z2177>Z28698>FT370140>FT371266.

This is what I saw from the Eupedia link above regarding Z435:

"Z435 was formed about 3,600 years ago and has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years (± 300 years). The latter corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. This could either mean that Z435 was one of the founding Italic lineages, or that it was already in Italy and was assimilated by the Italic tribes. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Portugal, Spain, France, Britain, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, Tunisia or Lebanon, all regions colonised by the Romans. Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old. It has various subclades of its own which are scattered today around Italy (northern Italy, Tuscany, Latium, Sicily, Sardinia) and in places like Switzerland, south-west Germany, Britain, Spain, Romania, Greece, Turkey and Syria - also all these regions were part of the Roman Empire. Italy has by far the highest concentration of Z2177 of any country."

Does this imply that my haplogroup is related to Italics that came down and settled in the Itallian peninsula? I had thought that the Italics that would colonize the Itallian peninsula would likely have had an "R" related haplogroup since they were Indo-Europeans. The quote above also states that it could have been present already in Italy before the itallics came, would those have been Greeks? This is very interesting because of my father apparently having a very small amount of Itallian ancestry. If all of this is true, I am guessing my paternal line became Albanianized or Balkanized over time. I am not sure what the Italian source in my father's ancestry in a location like Peladhi, Diber, Albania would have been. I wish I could have tested my grandfather before he had passed to see if he would have more Itallian ancestry to confirm this.



Thank you, Dibran.



If you don't mind sharing, do you happen to know the ancestral details regarding your great-grandfather? Was the J-L70 found during the Republic era or the Imperial era of the Roman Empire?

I wanted to share some more detail from IllustrativeDNA in case they may help answer some of the questions I had above or from my previous post in this thread.

For myself, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results, HG & Farmer, Modern Genetic Distance and then lastly Ancient Genetic Distance. There are "unsupervised" models. Let me know if those may assist.

View attachment 16626

View attachment 16627

View attachment 16628

View attachment 16629

For my father, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results, HG & Farmer, Modern Genetic Distance and then lastly Ancient Genetic Distance. Please note, for the periodical results, the timeline locations are similar to mine (for example, Bronze age timeline is located at the same corner). You'll notice that my father and I have the same composition for bronze age timeline and for HG & Farmer makeup.

View attachment 16630
View attachment 16631View attachment 16632View attachment 16633


For my mother, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results and HG & Farmer. Modern Genetic Distance and Ancient Genetic Distance will not be included because I can only attach 10 images. Please note, for the periodical results, the timeline locations are similar to mine (for example, Bronze age timeline is located at the same corner).

View attachment 16634View attachment 16635

Thank you for your time!
Regarding the oldest ancient samples of J-L70, you can check the following papers, from the Imperial period and late antiquity:
1. Marche: https://elifesciences.org/articles/79714
2. Upper Moesia: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38065079/
3. Rome: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7093155/
4. Croatia: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.14.594056v1?ct

You can also find ancient samples, on late antiquity/early medieval cultures such as: Visigoth (Spain), Avar (Hungary), Byzantine (Anatolia and Egypt), Viking (Sweden)

About the Marche JL70, the oldest sample until now, some interesting comments :

From the supplementary material:

"T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
century BC."
Distance to: R1557
0.02681752 Sicilian_East
0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
0.02952766 Italian_Molise
0.02990920 Italian_Campania
0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03486944 Greek_Crete
0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
 
Thank you, Juan. Do you happen to have a source that I can read regarding the oldest J2a-L70 found? Are there any papers or threads on this website that discuss this? I was looking at the following (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#subclades) and was able to trace my haplogroup path up until Z2177 but then the phylogenetic tree of haplogroups stops with "Iron Age" and then "Roman?". Are there any more recent phylogenetic tree of haplogroups as it appears this one was made in 2016?

Please see below my haplogroup path:

J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25>Z438>CTS1192>L70>PF5430>Z435>Z2177>Z28698>FT370140>FT371266.

This is what I saw from the Eupedia link above regarding Z435:

"Z435 was formed about 3,600 years ago and has a TMRCA of only 3,100 years (± 300 years). The latter corresponds roughly to the timing of the invasion of Italian peninsula by Italic tribes from the Alps. Z435 has numerous subclades of its own, and most have been identified in central Italy. This could either mean that Z435 was one of the founding Italic lineages, or that it was already in Italy and was assimilated by the Italic tribes. The PF5456 subclade is barely 2500 years old, and would have emerged and propagated after the founding of Rome. Outside Italy, it is now found in such varied places as Portugal, Spain, France, Britain, Belgium, southern Germany, Austria, Bulgaria, Tunisia or Lebanon, all regions colonised by the Romans. Z2177, another subclade of Z435, is a bit under 3,000 years old. It has various subclades of its own which are scattered today around Italy (northern Italy, Tuscany, Latium, Sicily, Sardinia) and in places like Switzerland, south-west Germany, Britain, Spain, Romania, Greece, Turkey and Syria - also all these regions were part of the Roman Empire. Italy has by far the highest concentration of Z2177 of any country."

Does this imply that my haplogroup is related to Italics that came down and settled in the Itallian peninsula? I had thought that the Italics that would colonize the Itallian peninsula would likely have had an "R" related haplogroup since they were Indo-Europeans. The quote above also states that it could have been present already in Italy before the itallics came, would those have been Greeks? This is very interesting because of my father apparently having a very small amount of Itallian ancestry. If all of this is true, I am guessing my paternal line became Albanianized or Balkanized over time. I am not sure what the Italian source in my father's ancestry in a location like Peladhi, Diber, Albania would have been. I wish I could have tested my grandfather before he had passed to see if he would have more Itallian ancestry to confirm this.



Thank you, Dibran.



If you don't mind sharing, do you happen to know the ancestral details regarding your great-grandfather? Was the J-L70 found during the Republic era or the Imperial era of the Roman Empire?

I wanted to share some more detail from IllustrativeDNA in case they may help answer some of the questions I had above or from my previous post in this thread.

For myself, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results, HG & Farmer, Modern Genetic Distance and then lastly Ancient Genetic Distance. There are "unsupervised" models. Let me know if those may assist.

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For my father, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results, HG & Farmer, Modern Genetic Distance and then lastly Ancient Genetic Distance. Please note, for the periodical results, the timeline locations are similar to mine (for example, Bronze age timeline is located at the same corner). You'll notice that my father and I have the same composition for bronze age timeline and for HG & Farmer makeup.

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For my mother, please see the "supervised" models for periodical results and HG & Farmer. Modern Genetic Distance and Ancient Genetic Distance will not be included because I can only attach 10 images. Please note, for the periodical results, the timeline locations are similar to mine (for example, Bronze age timeline is located at the same corner).

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Thank you for your time!
My great-grandfather was from the Peloponnese. The ancient L70 samples I mentioned came from the Roman Imperial period and late antiquity, found in Rome and "Roman Imperial Serbia." All of the samples thus far are from no earlier than the Roman Imperial period (unless I missed one or more samples, sorry if I did). Four papers that are important for our paternal/grandparent line of J-L24 (father of L70) and involving our ancestral part of the world are:

Ancient Rome: a genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

A genetic history of the Balkans from Roman frontier to Slavic migrations

The genetic history of the Southern Arc: a bridge between West Asia and Europe

The diverse genetic origins of a classical period Greek army
 
Regarding the oldest ancient samples of J-L70, you can check the following papers, from the Imperial period and late antiquity:
1. Marche: https://elifesciences.org/articles/79714
2. Upper Moesia: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38065079/
3. Rome: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7093155/
4. Croatia: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.05.14.594056v1?ct

You can also find ancient samples, on late antiquity/early medieval cultures such as: Visigoth (Spain), Avar (Hungary), Byzantine (Anatolia and Egypt), Viking (Sweden)

About the Marche JL70, the oldest sample until now, some interesting comments :

From the supplementary material:

"T. 68 (R1557) is described (Mercando et al. 1982) as a single earthen grave with an E-W orientation.
The disposition of the bones in the image provided and the indication of the
presence of iron nails along the margins of the grave suggest the presence of a
perishable, possibly wooden, casket. Grave goods included a bronze coin and pottery
fragments. Archaeological indicators place the burials to the last quarter of the 1st
century BC."
Distance to: R1557
0.02681752 Sicilian_East
0.02930107 Italian_Apulia
0.02952766 Italian_Molise
0.02990920 Italian_Campania
0.03080833 Italian_Basilicata
0.03176894 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03272543 ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.03486944 Greek_Crete
0.03515185 Italian_Calabria
0.03546203 Italian_Lazio

What is really interesting, is that this sample is J2-L70, this means that this clade, with a southern Italian profile, was already in Central Italy at least at the end of the Roman Republican period, on a rural context on what Augustus named Regio VI, Umbria et Ager Gallicus Picenus. Northern Marche region was the encounter of Galli Senoni, Italic Tribes ( Umbrians and Picentes) and Siracusan Greeks from Ankon, before the romanization of this region, that occurred after the Sentino Battle, in the context of the Third Samnite War on the III Century BCE.
Thanks for the updates. I can't wait for the sample that turns up in the pre-Roman period, or at least from the Roman Republic era.
 
Are there any papers or sources that show a very clear and distinct continuity of contemporary Albanians to populations from the Bronze Age or Iron Age? From what I am understanding from reading a few threads here, Albanians have long since lost their continuity to Iron Age populations that used to inhabit Albania, like the Illyrians, and are now (alongside modern mainland Greeks) basically a slightly Slavic shifted southern Italian-like/ashkenazi-like/Sephardic-like population whereas Illyrians were more akin to people in contemporary northern/central Italy? Am I interpreting this correctly or am I looking at this wrong in the sense that I should not be using to PCA to look at ancestry/continuity? I would be very grateful for an expert to explain this.
 
Are there any papers or sources that show a very clear and distinct continuity of contemporary Albanians to populations from the Bronze Age or Iron Age? From what I am understanding from reading a few threads here, Albanians have long since lost their continuity to Iron Age populations that used to inhabit Albania, like the Illyrians, and are now (alongside modern mainland Greeks) basically a slightly Slavic shifted southern Italian-like/ashkenazi-like/Sephardic-like population whereas Illyrians were more akin to people in contemporary northern/central Italy? Am I interpreting this correctly or am I looking at this wrong in the sense that I should not be using to PCA to look at ancestry/continuity? I would be very grateful for an expert to explain this.
Here is a preprint on Albanians and an excerpt:

"However, in agreement with linguistic studies, we find that Albanians likely descend from a surviving West palaeo-Balkan population that experienced significant demographic increase approximately between 500-800 CE (Fig. 10), perhaps after a population bottleneck."

Ancient DNA reveals the origins of the Albanians
 
Regarding J2L70, and in particular JZ2177, a new ancient sample was found in southern Spain, in the roman Baetica province, from the late Imperial period (around 300 CE). His is considered a Roman with a clear Hipano-Roman ancestry. Another confirmation that this clade expansion, was consistent during roman times, and probably from central-south Italy expanded elsewhere in Europe. unfortunately we still don´t have many ancient republican era o Magna Graecia samples from Italy to have further answers.
 
Are there any papers or sources that show a very clear and distinct continuity of contemporary Albanians to populations from the Bronze Age or Iron Age? From what I am understanding from reading a few threads here, Albanians have long since lost their continuity to Iron Age populations that used to inhabit Albania, like the Illyrians, and are now (alongside modern mainland Greeks) basically a slightly Slavic shifted southern Italian-like/ashkenazi-like/Sephardic-like population whereas Illyrians were more akin to people in contemporary northern/central Italy? Am I interpreting this correctly or am I looking at this wrong in the sense that I should not be using to PCA to look at ancestry/continuity? I would be very grateful for an expert to explain this.
North Albanians have some native ancestry associated with J2b that forms 25% (the cluster is very diverse to be a founder effect so it likely represent autosomal impact too) it's just hard to model Albanians without an allegedly Levantine component which is not historically the right choice. Albanians should be modelled with an E-V13 Balkan population which will "eat" a great chunk of Illyrian ancestry putting it below 50%. (And possibly minor Anatolian ancestry too.)

There is also 15-20% R1b which is possibly related to Illyrians too. So there is some continuity but not as strong as expected.

Roman Christian Greeks of Peloponnese likely trace the bulk of their ancestry to West Asia with a substantial Classic Greek component.
I think their West Asian component is more Roman (associated with Christianity, colonies and slavery) than Hellenistic compared to what is generally believed but that's merely an opinion I could be wrong.


The impact of the Slavs is yet to be seen but it should be around >25% in mainstream Peloponnesians.
 
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Regarding J2L70, and in particular JZ2177, a new ancient sample was found in southern Spain, in the roman Baetica province, from the late Imperial period (around 300 CE). His is considered a Roman with a clear Hipano-Roman ancestry. Another confirmation that this clade expansion, was consistent during roman times, and probably from central-south Italy expanded elsewhere in Europe. unfortunately we still don´t have many ancient republican era o Magna Graecia samples from Italy to have further answers.
Just saw a new paper, not sure if you are referring to that. But here is something from that paper (haven't read it yet):

"Ancestry analysis of the Roman Period individuals reveals the significant presence of East Mediterranean-related ancestry (Figure 2B) that we modeled with Roman and Byzantine groups from West Anatolia. This signal can be detected as soon as the 3rd century CE at Tarraco (Barranc de Sales archaeological site) or at Empúries, and it is attested as well at the Y-chromosome level, with lineages like J-L210, J-L26, and J-Z2177 (Table S1) that are absent during the Iron Age in Iberia to the limits of our resolution, but typical in the Eastern Mediterranean."

The paper is in another thread in this blog.

Disparate demographic impacts of the Roman Colonization and the Migration Period in the Iberian Peninsula


 
Just saw a new paper, not sure if you are referring to that. But here is something from that paper (haven't read it yet):

"Ancestry analysis of the Roman Period individuals reveals the significant presence of East Mediterranean-related ancestry (Figure 2B) that we modeled with Roman and Byzantine groups from West Anatolia. This signal can be detected as soon as the 3rd century CE at Tarraco (Barranc de Sales archaeological site) or at Empúries, and it is attested as well at the Y-chromosome level, with lineages like J-L210, J-L26, and J-Z2177 (Table S1) that are absent during the Iron Age in Iberia to the limits of our resolution, but typical in the Eastern Mediterranean."

The paper is in another thread in this blog.

Disparate demographic impacts of the Roman Colonization and the Migration Period in the Iberian Peninsula


Yes, you can follow also the threat: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ration-period-in-the-iberian-peninsula.45295/
Also from the paper, related to this clades:
" These patterns are consistent with those observed in other parts of the Roman Empire, such as the Imperial core in Rome and central Italy (Antonio et al., 2019; Posth et al., 2021) and the Balkans (Olalde et al., 2023). The Iberian Peninsula also received this demographic input, which could have its proximal source in the Italian Peninsula, where this ancestry was already widespread, or in more eastern provinces where this ancestry has its distal origin. "
 
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Thank you all for this information, it really helps me understand more about my identity as I'm somewhat deracinated and would like to learn more about my heritage more from a genetic perspective.

When I have tried learning about my Albanian heritage on the internet, I've always seen Albanians state that we are "100% Illyrian, etc". From what I've been reading on this thread and forum, modern Albanians, as well as modern mainland Greeks are akin to Iron Age Balkan populations (Illyrian, Thracian, etc) but with Slavic ancestry, enough so that it has pulled us away from the genetic profile of Iron Age Balkan populations. Also, it seems Greek Islanders are closer to ancient Greeks than are mainland Greeks due the genetic pull caused by Slavic input. Is this interpretation correct? In essence, I as someone who is ethnically Albanian can say something like, "I'm Illyrian and Slavic"?

Regarding J2a-L70, are there any cultures before the Romans that this haplogroup is associated with? I had read in the past that one branch of it was spread by Greeks while another branch was spread by Phonecians (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9). Before I had done the Big-Y700, I had uploaded my 23andMe raw file through a y-haplogroup predictor in the past and had gotten J2a-L397 which I apparently was associated with Greek colonization of the mediterranean. I had also read a few threads on this website saying J2a-L70 was found in Mycenaean Greece. If I were to take this information and guess the path of my paternal line, would it be as follows (please note the logic of the timeline might be ridiculous as history I am not very knowledgeable with history) :

1) Farmers enter Europe from modern day Turkey
2) Stays in modern day Greece and stays there for a while. Becomes a part of Mycenaean Greece.
3) Mycenaean Greece take over Minoans and just stays there.
4) Doric Greeks come down from the north and takes over and just stays there for a while.
5) Sails to Southern Italy.
5) Italics come and take them over, somehow manages to still have children after foreign men conqueror.
6) Becomes part of Roman society for a long time.

or

1) Farmers enter Europe from modern day Turkey
2) Stays in modern day Greece and stays there for a while. Becomes a part of Mycenaean Greece.
3) Mycenaean Greece take over Minoans and just stays there.
4) Doric Greeks come down from the north and takes over and just stays there for a while.
5) Stays in Greece and just farms forever
6) Roman republic becomes empire
7) Immigrate to Italian peninsula and just farm there

and then somehow ends up in the modern borders of Albania and for whatever reason, of all places to end up, goes to Peladhi.

Does this make sense or am I not understanding things.

Thank you!
 
Thank you all for this information, it really helps me understand more about my identity as I'm somewhat deracinated and would like to learn more about my heritage more from a genetic perspective.

When I have tried learning about my Albanian heritage on the internet, I've always seen Albanians state that we are "100% Illyrian, etc". From what I've been reading on this thread and forum, modern Albanians, as well as modern mainland Greeks are akin to Iron Age Balkan populations (Illyrian, Thracian, etc) but with Slavic ancestry, enough so that it has pulled us away from the genetic profile of Iron Age Balkan populations. Also, it seems Greek Islanders are closer to ancient Greeks than are mainland Greeks due the genetic pull caused by Slavic input. Is this interpretation correct? In essence, I as someone who is ethnically Albanian can say something like, "I'm Illyrian and Slavic"?

Regarding J2a-L70, are there any cultures before the Romans that this haplogroup is associated with? I had read in the past that one branch of it was spread by Greeks while another branch was spread by Phonecians (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9). Before I had done the Big-Y700, I had uploaded my 23andMe raw file through a y-haplogroup predictor in the past and had gotten J2a-L397 which I apparently was associated with Greek colonization of the mediterranean. I had also read a few threads on this website saying J2a-L70 was found in Mycenaean Greece. If I were to take this information and guess the path of my paternal line, would it be as follows (please note the logic of the timeline might be ridiculous as history I am not very knowledgeable with history) :

1) Farmers enter Europe from modern day Turkey
2) Stays in modern day Greece and stays there for a while. Becomes a part of Mycenaean Greece.
3) Mycenaean Greece take over Minoans and just stays there.
4) Doric Greeks come down from the north and takes over and just stays there for a while.
5) Sails to Southern Italy.
5) Italics come and take them over, somehow manages to still have children after foreign men conqueror.
6) Becomes part of Roman society for a long time.

or

1) Farmers enter Europe from modern day Turkey
2) Stays in modern day Greece and stays there for a while. Becomes a part of Mycenaean Greece.
3) Mycenaean Greece take over Minoans and just stays there.
4) Doric Greeks come down from the north and takes over and just stays there for a while.
5) Stays in Greece and just farms forever
6) Roman republic becomes empire
7) Immigrate to Italian peninsula and just farm there

and then somehow ends up in the modern borders of Albania and for whatever reason, of all places to end up, goes to Peladhi.

Does this make sense or am I not understanding things.

Thank you!
Because of the Roman Empire, your direct ancestor may have been living nearby in the Balkans. I wish I knew my ancestor's terminal SNP. I only know it's J-L70. The big question, of course, is where did the ancient J-L70 people come from, with those "East Mediterranean" or "southern" autosomal profiles. Ancient Greece is poorly studied, after the Mycenaeans, who did not carry any J-L24 lines, except for a rumored J-L70 sample that's unpublished.
 
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