Debate Q5: What happens to you after you die?

[smoke]

I think this question depends more on people's beliefs and opinion rather than solid fact.

"What happens to you after you die?"

 

[lexico]

Not just before, not during, not at the moment of death, but after ?
Not factual, but based on personal ideas ? I don't want to trivialize my answer, but there is so little to base my answer on. That being my small complaint, let me try anyway.

I presume the "you" in the question concerns identity as a person rather than physical existence. Identity, acording to Pascal I think, is the continuation of self-awareness. Since self-awareness is known to cease at the moment of death, there wouldn't be anything that I could properly call "me" in principle. At the same time I may be remembered or called by name by people who knew me, so I would still have that nominal existence whithout qualifying the exact nature of my post mortem existence. If there were such a thing that could be called a universal imprint, record, or memory of all events, the last imprint that I left behind would be my latest record of identity. With no more continuation of identity to establish beyond the point of death, that last record would nominally constitute my identity.

As a word or memory, that identity can either disappear within a short time, or experience certain changes by selective memory and live on for a while. In that sense, my identity, not as a living identity to be preceived and processed for meaning and verbalization within the self, but as a secondary identity only to experience change as a notion, will exist for an unknown period of time. Eventually even that will cease to exist due to dilution of memory or due to the death of the bearers of the memory. Since we live both physically and by the symbolic process of signification, I could say that 2ndary existence does have some meaning. That was as serious an aswer as I could give.

 

[Index]

Physically, turn into fertilizer.
Conceptually, live on in the memories, hearts and imaginations of those who knew me personally or through the things I left behind (ideas, works, etc.)

 

[Shooter452]

It bespeaks little of my belief....

But I do not know. If I happened to be a committed Christian, I would have absolute faith and answer unhesitatingly about a hereafter. If I regarded all faith equally valueless I would answer the opposite way. But I lack the conviction of my own words to say with honesty either way. And this is more candor than I would normally share.

While I find the rituals and beliefs of Roman Catholicism comforting, I am not so sure of them that I regard my approaching death fondly (and it is approaching for all of us, gang). Still, I can see how it would be reassuring to believe that strongly. I wish that I did. I do not consider myself superior that I have doubts nor do I consider those who have none as being intellectually inferior.

But, the next time one of you gets to the other side of the Veil, send me back a letter so that way we all know!

 

[Maciamo]

IMO, there is no such thing as a soul. I also believe in an eternal and infinite universe. Our body is matter and energy, and this matter and energy has always been and will always remain in the universe. As a result, when we die, we do not disappear and it does not end there. Our self-awareness may stop, but in an eternal universe, there will be an infinity of chances that the matter that makes up our body now will form an infinity of other life beings in the future (and did in the past). So when people ask me whether I believe in reincarnation, the answer is both yes and no. It is yes, but maybe not before zillions of years, and maybe not on the earth we know. In any way, we will have absolutely no memory of it.

From a short-term point of view, I agree with what lexico and Index said.

For those among you that believe in heaven (and/or hell), do you think it possible for humans to bring back a soul to earth once it has entered heaven ? What if we cryogenized a dead body, then once science permit it, repair the dead neurons and cells of the body so that the person not only gets back to life but keep (at least part of) his/her memory. This is possible. Death means death of the neurons (nerves and brain) of our body. More accurate laser surgery could one day repair the dead neurons and bring them back to life.

 

[mad pierrot]

Physically, turn into fertilizer.
Conceptually, live on in the memories, hearts and imaginations of those who knew me personally or through the things I left behind (ideas, works, etc.)

Yeah what he said.

 

[miu]

I don't know what happens after death but I've always imagined dying feels the same as the moment when you're waiting to fall asleep and you wonder what happens to your mind when you finally do fall asleep - it feels like entering a sort of void.

Since I don't really believe in heaven or any of that stuff, I don't think it's all that important to think about what happens after I die - it's more important what I do now. And even if I did believen in heaven, it'd still be more important to think about the present ^^; (but this isn't so much related to the actual question...) :sorry:

From my point of view, "What does dying feel like?" is a much more interesting question... That of course depends on how you die but suppose that it's a very peaceful death - what does it feel like? :souka:

 

[Maciamo]

I don't know what happens after death but I've always imagined dying feels the same as the moment when you're waiting to fall asleep and you wonder what happens to your mind when you finally do fall asleep - it feels like entering a sort of void.

I imagine dying as a terribly painful experience, as every neuron of your brain and nerve of your body has to die. When your burn or cut yourself, you feel it because of the nerves that transmit it to your brain. So the pain is really in a tiny part of your brain that controls that small area of your body. Now imagine the pain if all the parts of your brain have to die (i.e. suffer so bad that the neurons finally explode) approximately at the same time (although it could last for several minutes, if not hours, as there is a stock of oxygen and reserve energy). This is 'dying'. All your memory, imagination, feelings, sense of your body, reasoning, etc. cry in pain and die. This is worst than how most people imagine hell. Well, if a person is completely disintegrated in a ultra-powerful explosion then we could imagine that we don't have the time to feel the pain. But death by lack of oxygen (eg. drowning, poisoning, heart attack, thrombosis, severe loss of blood, etc.) first result in losing control of one's body, faling semi-inconscious then feel each neuron die by asphixia, although you can't move a finger of your body.

 

[Mycernius]

Cheers Maciamo san. That has made me feel great. I now intend to try and live forever, or die trying.
BTW the brain doesn't feel physical pain. The only pain you would feel would be emotional as you realise that these are the last thoughts that you will ever have. Your life would fade away, so I imagine it would actually feel as if you are falling asleep. As what happens after that no-one knows

 

[TwistedMac]

I imagine dying as a terribly painful experience, as every neuron of your brain and nerve of your body has to die. When your burn or cut yourself, you feel it because of the nerves that transmit it to your brain. So the pain is really in a tiny part of your brain that controls that small area of your body. Now imagine the pain if all the parts of your brain have to die (i.e. suffer so bad that the neurons finally explode) approximately at the same time (although it could last for several minutes, if not hours, as there is a stock of oxygen and reserve energy). This is 'dying'. All your memory, imagination, feelings, sense of your body, reasoning, etc. cry in pain and die. This is worst than how most people imagine hell. Well, if a person is completely disintegrated in a ultra-powerful explosion then we could imagine that we don't have the time to feel the pain. But death by lack of oxygen (eg. drowning, poisoning, heart attack, thrombosis, severe loss of blood, etc.) first result in losing control of one's body, faling semi-inconscious then feel each neuron die by asphixia, although you can't move a finger of your body.

It's not impossible that you'll black out from the pain very early in that process though... I cling to that shred of hope myself.

 

[miu]

Now imagine the pain if all the parts of your brain have to die (i.e. suffer so bad that the neurons finally explode) approximately at the same time (although it could last for several minutes, if not hours, as there is a stock of oxygen and reserve energy).

If all the parts exploded at the same time, it might be such an extreme experience that we would probably black out. If all areas start closing down at the same time, wouldn't it create a sort of short circuit in our brain? Can we process all that information at the same time so that we'd realise how much is actually going on?

 

[smoke]

these are all interesting points and i believe that there is no such thing as a painless death (based more on word of mouth rather than fact).
However, this thread was more of a question on belief on things such as life after death, the after life and reincarnation (which has been touched upon). it's possible (if not probable) that i didn't realy make this clear...so apologies.
i agree with the point raised that energy does not disperse. energy exists in everything and, trying to remember back to high school science class, energy can not be destroyed.

 

[lexico]

You don't have to apologize because you did make it very clear; but please understand how these threads grow like plants. You never know what the next move will be. It can be frustrating for the exacting philosopher, but it makes it so much funner for the mischievous like TwistedMac ... :biggrin:

You should realize that you are asking a lot. For the minority people of faith on this forum where self-proclaimed atheists reign to pronounce their religious beliefs is like asking a Jew to identify his/her ethnic identity in occupied France for example. No genuine offense meant btw. :biggrin:

A little textual history of the Christian bible may help ellucidate a further, more genuine difficulty for some Christian skeptics. If the question was asked in 70 or 80 CE, the answer would have been straightforward. Life after death would follow a judgement before the creator on which pended one of two results; all the Jews and the gentile justs who held on to faith in Christ the King shall be brought back to life in full flesh and blood to live in the Kingdom for eternity; the gentile unjust who refused the faith shall not be resurrected from death and perish into the earth as dust unto dust.

With the two major Jewish Revolutions failing, and the last of the 1st apostles and witnesses of Jesus dying by circa 90 CE, and the 2nd generation of faith who had not seen Jesus in person also dying out, the believers were disappointed that the announcement of impending end was not fulfilled. One adminstrative solution to the break in living tradition was to bring together all trustworthy accounts by the 1st generation of believers and fix the Christian canon. Therefore the answer to afterlife became a symbolic and futurist one as opposed to the literal "end of the world at hand." Likewise modern catechism teaches there are two moments to the end; your personal death and the judgement day when all will face the creator for the final decision.

In this age of relativity, even the faithful are not spared of the constant challenge from common sense and logic (Science, evolution, or the follies of creationism are no source of doubt, as some uninformed might claim). As for my personal view, I can honestly say that I do not know for sure. The will of the creator is not to be fathomed by the creature, but only imagined and speculated. Who knows what life after life will be like ? I hope it will have a giant library combining the greatest libraries in history, some good coffee stalls, and a gym would be nice. :evil:
O, of course I shouldn't forget wideband connection with google and JFORUM. I'd like to have some restaurants serving curry, chicken yakitori, konbu soup, with a good assortment of vegetables.

 

[Frank D. White]

I've Earned It !!!

I'm going to a land populated by loving, purring cats who are tended by beautiful naked long black haired women!

Frank

:blush:

 

[Martyr]

"I am not ashamed to admit that I am ignorant of what I do not know."

 

[isayhello]

You just die. And it's gonna be scary as hell.

 

[smoke]

You don't have to apologize because you did make it very clear; but please understand how these threads grow like plants. You never know what the next move will be. It can be frustrating for the exacting philosopher, but it makes it so much funner for the mischievous like TwistedMac ... :biggrin:

You should realize that you are asking a lot. For the minority people of faith on this forum where self-proclaimed atheists reign to pronounce their religious beliefs is like asking a Jew to identify his/her ethnic identity in occupied France for example. No genuine offense meant btw. :biggrin:

A little textual history of the Christian bible may help ellucidate a further, more genuine difficulty for some Christian skeptics. If the question was asked in 70 or 80 CE, the answer would have been straightforward. Life after death would follow a judgement before the creator on which pended one of two results; all the Jews and the gentile justs who held on to faith in Christ the King shall be brought back to life in full flesh and blood to live in the Kingdom for eternity; the gentile unjust who refused the faith shall not be resurrected from death and perish into the earth as dust unto dust.

With the two major Jewish Revolutions failing, and the last of the 1st apostles and witnesses of Jesus dying by circa 90 CE, and the 2nd generation of faith who had not seen Jesus in person also dying out, the believers were disappointed that the announcement of impending end was not fulfilled. One adminstrative solution to the break in living tradition was to bring together all trustworthy accounts by the 1st generation of believers and fix the Christian canon. Therefore the answer to afterlife became a symbolic and futurist one as opposed to the literal "end of the world at hand." Likewise modern catechism teaches there are two moments to the end; your personal death and the judgement day when all will face the creator for the final decision.

In this age of relativity, even the faithful are not spared of the constant challenge from common sense and logic (Science, evolution, or the follies of creationism are no source of doubt, as some uninformed might claim). As for my personal view, I can honestly say that I do not know for sure. The will of the creator is not to be fathomed by the creature, but only imagined and speculated. Who knows what life after life will be like ? I hope it will have a giant library combining the greatest libraries in history, some good coffee stalls, and a gym would be nice. :evil:
O, of course I shouldn't forget wideband connection with google and JFORUM. I'd like to have some restaurants serving curry, chicken yakitori, konbu soup, with a good assortment of vegetables.

i understand your point...
when i talk of beliefs i did not neccesarily refer to religeous beliefs as this is something that can become difficult to explain and something that i have little knowledge of (following no organised religion myself). i think instead of beliefs i should have said thoughts. and speculation is a good thing, i think to speculate about the only thing that is certain (death) is fantastic.
it's good to see people putting what they hope the after life is like.
Good on you Mr White...save me a space in that heaven of yours! (yes i know, following no religion means i have no heaven to go to!)
'isayhello' why do you feel it will be scary?

 

[lexico]

So, what's next, o wise one ?

You've got me hooked with your questions...and life is not the same.
I hope the philosopher is not bothered by performance anxiety.
I know it's more difficult to come up with good questions, but let's drop the "good" part, and have just plain vanilla questions.
Vanilla happens to be my favorite, as is plain rice, plain water, plain everything.

 

[Index]

You've got me hooked with your questions...and life is not the same.
I hope the philosopher is not bothered by performance anxiety.
I know it's more difficult to come up with good questions, but let's drop the "good" part, and have just plain vanilla questions.
Vanilla happens to be my favorite, as is plain rice, plain water, plain everything.

Here here. I agree. Question number six please.....

 

[kirei_na_me]

Physically, turn into fertilizer.
Conceptually, live on in the memories, hearts and imaginations of those who knew me personally or through the things I left behind (ideas, works, etc.)

Agree with you 100%.

That's exactly the way I feel.