Potential R1a-M458 sample discovered in Bronze Age South-West Germany

Dibran

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Ethnic group
Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
Y-DNA haplogroup
R-L1029>Y133379
mtDNA haplogroup
H11a2b*
One sample on a upcoming paper on social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland may belong to R1a-M458 pending further examination. Sample MX265 was discovered in the District of Constance, which is in Southwest Germany on the Swiss border. If I am not mistaken the sample was from the Bronze Age. If it is confirmed it would be pretty neat considering we only have medieval samples of descending clades.

According to Pribislav on Anthro(whom I assume interpreted the BAM): The reads were as follows.

PF6155 level: AM01874+ A>G (1 read); AM01875+ C>A (1 read); PF6161+ C>T (1 read)


PF6155>M458 level: PF6202+ T>C (3 reads)



All downstream SNPs are ancestral, including some that define subclades CTS11962, CTS11962>L1029, L260>YP256, and L260>YP1337. The official paper is due to release soon. The link to the BAM file among other samples is below if anyone is curious about proofing or checking other samples.

https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Traces/sra/?study=SRP250694

Additionally, G25 coordinates were already prepared should anyone be interested.

MX265_scaled,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023

MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067

 
Interesting. Curiously, this individual was mostly EEF and had relatively little steppe ancestry, but a lot of extra HG ancestry, absorbed, I guess, in the journey from the steppe to Southwest Germany through a northern route, probably with the CWC expansion.

Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 4.1580% / 0.04157987 | ADC: 0.25x

54.2HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN
26.8RUS_Progress_En
10.0UKR_Meso
4.6POL_Globular_Amphora
4.0ROU_Meso
0.4UKR_Trypillia
,
 
Interesting. Curiously, this individual was mostly EEF and had relatively little steppe ancestry, but a lot of extra HG ancestry, absorbed, I guess, in the journey from the steppe to Southwest Germany through a northern route, probably with the CWC expansion.
Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 4.1580% / 0.04157987 | ADC: 0.25x
54.2HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN
26.8RUS_Progress_En
10.0UKR_Meso
4.6POL_Globular_Amphora
4.0ROU_Meso
0.4UKR_Trypillia
,

He had high CWC Baltic admixture. If I'm not mistaken, is Farmer ancestry is high but is still dwarfed by the Baltic. Farmer ancestry seems shared with SE Farmers.

All ancients:
Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 1.2714% / 0.01271432
23.6 Baltic_LVA_BA

14.2 DEU_LBK_N
13.8 HUN_Starcevo_N
11.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
11.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
6.2 HUN_Tisza_LN
6.2 SWE_LN_low_res
3.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
3.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
2.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
1.4 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier2
1.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.6 VUT_2300BP_all
0.4 ZAF_2000BP
0.2 MAR_Taforalt


Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 2.9856% / 0.02985603

37.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
18.4 Corded_Ware_POL

One user mentioned another paper on eastern La Tene also has some R1a. Not published yet.
Considering this find, I'm curious if the R1a in that paper will be M458 as well.
 
Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 2.9856% / 0.02985603

37.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
24.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
18.4 Corded_Ware_POL

One user mentioned another paper on eastern La Tene also has some R1a. Not published yet.
Considering this find, I'm curious if the R1a in that paper will be M458 as well.

I think this confirms the high extra EEF in this individual in comparison with CWC samples. You have ~44% EEF + ~56% CWC (Germany and Poland), but in this ~56% there was already a significant even if minor amount of EEF. This individual probably had recent ancestors from late EEF communities who were still mixing with CWC and Beaker-derived people, I think.
 
I think this confirms the high extra EEF in this individual in comparison with CWC samples. You have ~44% EEF + ~56% CWC (Germany and Poland), but in this ~56% there was already a significant even if minor amount of EEF. This individual probably had recent ancestors from late EEF communities who were still mixing with CWC and Beaker-derived people, I think.

Very possible. I could be wrong but I think it could be a spillover from Lusatian or related cultures into La Tene.

However, if those R1a samples in Eastern La Tene coming are M458, perhaps it was part of both neighboring cultures?
 
SmxsTO6.png
 
These other samples are Central European as well?
Does have a decent chunk of Anatolia Barcin. On Iron Age calc he gets Pannonian and South East Celtic as his closest distances. Not sure if these are just arbitrary labels or if they do represent the cultures to some extent.


0 - 1000 BCE (Iron Age) G25 Calculator

Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 3.2720% / 0.03271984

31.2 BALTIC
16.8 ILLYRIAN
15.6 GREEK
12.8 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST
12.0 MACEDONIAN
10.8 IBERIAN
0.6 IBEROMAURUSIAN
0.2 SOUTH-AFRICA

Distance to: MX265_scaled
0.03923354 PANNONIAN
0.04856681 CELTIC-SOUTHEAST

0.06703847 ILLYRIAN
0.06759245 CELTIC-NORTHWEST
0.06820935 PONTIC-BALTIC
0.08752413 NORDIC
0.08890670 MACEDONIAN
0.08953220 IBERIAN
0.09638782 PANNONIAN-PONTIC
0.10030210 PONTIC
0.12293335 GREEK
0.12822600 CENTRAL-EUROPEAN-PONTIC
 
These other samples are Central European as well?
The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.

To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.
 
The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.

To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.

Very interesting. I look forward to the paper including the other one with R1a in Eastern La Tene.
 
The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.

To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.

It appears the sample is in fact R1a-M458*. It turns out to be between 750-450BC. Coinciding roughly with Hallstatt C & D period. Interestingly this timeframe coincides with the arrival of iron weapons and inhumation/cremation rites.
 
For what it's worth, in my German DNA/Heritage Facebook group, a guy shared a pie chart with Swiss-German Y DNA samples, and while only 6% is R1a, it is all M458.
 
For what it's worth, in my German DNA/Heritage Facebook group, a guy shared a pie chart with Swiss-German Y DNA samples, and while only 6% is R1a, it is all M458.

I imagine if more M458 starts coming from La Tene it will make everything a little clearer.

Can you post that pie chart when you get a chance?
 
Screen Shot 2020-05-31 at 3.43.40 PM.pngWhoops, didn't keep up with this thread...I guess better late than never.
 
View attachment 12135Whoops, didn't keep up with this thread...I guess better late than never.

Great! thank you.

I guess we can't really say much until we get clade specifics among Swiss M458. Also, whether or not theres some clade diversity or if its owed to a founder effect/bottleneck. Whether or not it was involved in East La Tene, assuming it spread exclusively with Slavs, the only thing I can think of are Wendish under the Franks, or later migrations from Germany(carrying M458) to Switzerland. As far as I can tell, Slavs didn't really have much input in the region. Interestingly, 6% while low is still higher than many other areas with M458. With the exception of Bulgaria, All South Slavic countries have 2-5% M458. For an area not settled by Slavs, its interesting they have M458. Equally interesting is the absence of Z280 which is more common among Slavs.

Do you know how many samples were included?
 
View attachment 12135Whoops, didn't keep up with this thread...I guess better late than never.

The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.

To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.

So, according to Generalissimo/Davidski, R-L1029*(albeit only one sample) was found in East La Tene, specifically Iron Age Czechia(Bohemia).

He also says autosomally the sample is "Scandinavian-like". Maybe a spillover from further north and east?

Worth noting, M458 was found in late Hallstatt and now R-L1029* in Eastern La Tene. The M458 sample was of low quality and couldn't be classified further than M458. So, he very well may have been somewhere further downstream.

The paper with this sample is currently in peer review and should release this year according to forum discussions.
 
View attachment 12135Whoops, didn't keep up with this thread...I guess better late than never.
The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.
To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.

So, according to Generalissimo/Davidski, R-L1029*(albeit only one sample) was found in East La Tene, specifically Iron Age Czechia(Bohemia).

He also says autosomally the sample is "Scandinavian-like". Maybe a spillover from further north? I guess we'll see how autosomal makeup when the paper is released.

Worth noting, M458 was found in late Hallstatt and now R-L1029* in Eastern La Tene. The M458 sample was of low quality and couldn't be classified further than M458. So, he very well may have been somewhere further downstream.

The paper with this sample is currently in peer review and should release this year according to forum discussions.
 
Pershendetje. Sapo kam rezultatet nga ftydna dhe i perkas te njejtit haplogroup. R1a L1029.
 
Pershendetje. Sapo kam rezultatet nga ftydna dhe i perkas te njejtit haplogroup. R1a L1029.

Pershendetje Ermir,

Une jam R-L1029 gjithashtu. Nga Dibra. Une dergova nje mesazh.
 
For what it's worth, in my German DNA/Heritage Facebook group, a guy shared a pie chart with Swiss-German Y DNA samples, and while only 6% is R1a, it is all M458.
The Lech samples (Mittnick paper, iirc) were found some 200 kms to the east, in southern Germany, just north of the Austrian border. At approximately the same latitude.
To me, this guy looks like a typical Urnfield sample, in spite of his haplogroup.

Don't think it was mentioned. The recent British Paper also found an Iron Age La Tene sample dated to 250BCE in Bohemia, Czechia that was R1a-L1029. It was predicted R-YP5267 however this is a no call based on yfull, including a number of other downstream branches. Yfull has currently left it as R-L1029. This is pretty big considering the claims that R-L1029 only came with Slavs. Now we have a R-M458 in late Hallstatt from the previous Switzerland Neolithic study and this R-L1029 from La Tene in Czechia. Assuming it is truly downstream, then R-L1029 is at least 2250ybp if not greater.

The only interesting thing is the sample is very Scando-Germanic and not too western. Then again some other La Tene samples had a very Balto-Slavic drift according to Tomenable on Anthrogenica. Below is the R-L1029 La Tene autosomal.

https://yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

Czech_IA_LaTene:I13780___Date:-300BCE___R-L1029,0.119514,0.128972,0.072407,0.060078,0.035083,0.023427,0.002115,0.014769,0.004704,-0.009659,-0.008444,0.003147,-0.008771,0.000963,0.009908,0.009149,0.014081,0.003294,-0.000503,0.008254,0.003494,0.00643,0.001972,0.006386,-0.001796


Distance to:Czech_IA_LaTene:I13780___Date:-300___Coverage_66.91%
0.02628619VK2020_RUS_Ladoga_VA
0.02669941VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA
0.02721430SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
0.02844003HUN_MBA_Fuzesabony
0.02879865VK2020_SWE_Oland_VA
0.02910117VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
0.02919599CZE_Unetice_C
0.02928253VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
0.02988473VK2020_NOR_South_VA
0.03017744VK2020_IRL_Dublin_VA
0.03027493VK2020_Isle_Of_Man_VA
0.03040232VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
0.03043400VK2020_NOR_North_VA
0.03076554VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA
0.03210895Scythian_MDA_o
0.03213348SWE_Ollsjo_BA
0.03224815VK2020_SWE_Uppsala_VA
0.03231249ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.03294364VK2020_DNK_Sealand_VA
0.03303636CZE_Bilina_BA
0.03305397VK2020_NOR_Mid_IA
0.03311948SWE_LN
0.03317952CZE_Unetice_EBA
0.03335834DEU_Halberstadt_LBA
0.03348884VK2020_IRL_Eyrephort_VA
0.03438701DEU_Unetice_EBA
0.03458709VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA
0.03476183VK2020_NOR_South_IA
0.03493705VK2020_NOR_Mid_VA
0.03496362VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA
0.03506426VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
0.03524778England_CA_EBA
0.03525566VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA
0.03559762VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA
0.03564174England_MBA
0.03566515HUN_Fuzesabony_MBA
0.03596693DEU_MA_Alemannic
0.03599006IRL_BA
0.03612936Corded_Ware_CHE
0.03622534Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03635777VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA
0.03645440England_Saxon
0.03693579Scotland_CA_EBA
0.03745462VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
0.03748197VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
0.03760580ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian
0.03791398VK2020_ISL_Hringsdalur_VA
0.03803242VK2020_GreenlandE_VA
0.03804941Scotland_MBA
0.03855028CZE_Unetice_preC

Distance to:Czech_IA_LaTene:I13780___Date:-300___Coverage_66.91%
0.03107253Swedish
0.03407228Danish
0.03690219Norwegian
0.03803563Dutch
0.03850085Czech
0.03880685Icelandic
0.03968601Slovakian
0.04030604German
0.04122974German_East
0.04263225Afrikaner
0.04295286Orcadian
0.04372199Scottish
0.04420439Welsh
0.04425067Shetlandic
0.04503607English
0.04557798Irish
0.04603910Polish
0.04641354Hungarian
0.04647956Austrian
0.04746456English_Cornwall
0.04837559French_Brittany
0.04968429Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.04991814Moldovan_o
0.05164159Ukrainian_Rivne
0.05229883Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.05232111Slovenian
0.05296155Ukrainian_Lviv
0.05305395Croatian
0.05330603Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.05351284Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05458089Cossack_Ukrainian
0.05480880French_Pas-de-Calais
0.05487720Belgian
0.05493008Cossack_Kuban
0.05577678Russian_Ryazan
0.05588682Russian_Kursk
0.05592245Russian_Voronez
0.05639263Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.05648447Finnish_Southeast
0.05690758Russian_Orel
0.05727454French_Nord
0.05738049Ukrainian_Sumy
0.05754003Russian_Belgorod
0.05796932Russian_Tver
0.05802483French_Seine-Maritime
0.05854575French_Alsace
0.05879021Russian_Kaluga
0.05891401Russian_Smolensk
0.06009014Polish_Kashubian
0.06032952Lithuanian_PA
 
It was predicted R-YP5267 however this is a no call based on yfull, including a number of other downstream branches. Yfull has currently left it as R-L1029. This is pretty big considering the claims that R-L1029 only came with Slavs. Now we have a R-M458 in late Hallstatt from the previous Switzerland Neolithic study and this R-L1029 from La Tene in Czechia. Assuming it is truly downstream, then R-L1029 is at least 2250ybp if not greater.

Interesting news indeed.
I13780 seems to be downstream. If you hit the info button, you will see that it is positive for R-YP4289 and R-Y126934 under YP263. Besides the Swiss MX265 there is also I25524 (IA La Tene - Hungary) at M458 level (this is the sample reported as PF6155 in the british paper) although it also seems positive for a downstream SNP (R-Z29307).
 
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