Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

[LeBrok]

Originally Posted by LeBrok The best example is Mazovians (Mazowszanie) who didn't call themselves polish till pretty much 16th century.



What is this statement based on?.

Here is an interesting discussion about etymology of name Polska (Poland).

http://archeowiesci.pl/2011/05/31/skad-sie-wziela-nazwa-polski/

 

[Sile]

Here is an interesting discussion about etymology of name Polska (Poland).

http://archeowiesci.pl/2011/05/31/skad-sie-wziela-nazwa-polski/

A translation would be helpful to me
thanks

 

[Taranis]

Here is an interesting discussion about etymology of name Polska (Poland).

http://archeowiesci.pl/2011/05/31/skad-sie-wziela-nazwa-polski/

My opinion is that the name "Poland"/Polska meant something like "plain land" in Proto-Slavic. Interestingly, the element *pol- actually has also a cognate in Germanic, namely in the name "Westphalia" (Westfalen), which basically means 'western plain'.

There's also the name "Pommerania" (Polish "Pomorze", German "Pommern"), which in Slavic has a similar etymology as the Celtic "Aremorica" ('land near the sea').

 

[LeBrok]

A translation would be helpful to me
thanks

Sorry, try Google translator. I got this link specially for Matbir. In this discussion 2-3 professional historians and 1 archeologist of early middle age take part. Listening to this is like being at archeological site and eavesdropping on top archeologists arguing about discoveries. It doesn't get better than this to feel closer to ancient times.

 

[LeBrok]

My opinion is that the name "Poland"/Polska meant something like "plain land" in Proto-Slavic. Interestingly, the element *pol- actually has also a cognate in Germanic, namely in the name "Westphalia" (Westfalen), which basically means 'western plain'.

There's also the name "Pommerania" (Polish "Pomorze", German "Pommern"), which in Slavic has a similar etymology as the Celtic "Aremorica" ('land near the sea').

Supposedly naming land after field (Pole) is common in Europe. Similar etymology happened to names Campania and Champagnia, I've heard.

Linguistically, I suspect, that name "Pole" came from word "polesie". Polesie is descriptionary word to explain where forest ends. Po - means after, lesie - means forest in locative case.
This area in Europe was covered with dense forest, so it was very useful to have a word describing a place at the end of forest for these people. There are still existing locations named just "Polesie". Also little meadow in the middle of forest is called "polana", and it doesn't mean agrarian land. Just place with no woods, well at least in today's meaning.
I assumed that, in some cases the word "polesie", broke to "pole-sie", and got shortened to just "pole", with meaning empty ground, place with no trees, and agrarian field.



One of the points I was trying to make at the beginning of the thread was that name Polska (in polish) is only attested around 15 century and not necessarily used to describe the full extent of first known "Poland", the land of Mieszko. For first 4 centuries we only know this name in latin, Polonia, Polania, Polenia, even Bulonia, never as Polska. And in this form only describing land of Polans, the tribe of Polanie, and never the whole dominion of Mieszko or Chrobry. I think we have to wait till 13 century to start to see Polonia used for the whole country, and this without Silesia and West Pomerania, which were separated since.

 

[Sile]

Supposedly naming land after field (Pole) is common in Europe. Similar etymology happened to names Compania and Champagnia, I've heard.

Linguistically, I suspect, that name "Pole" came from word "polesie". Polesie is descriptionary word to explain where forest ends. Po - means after, lesie - means forest in locative case.
This area in Europe was covered with dense forest, so it was very useful to have a word describing a place at the end of forest for these people. There are still existing locations named just "Polesie". Also little meadow in the middle of forest is called "polana", and it doesn't mean agrarian land. Just place with no woods, well at least in today's meaning.
I assumed that, in some cases the word "polesie", broke to "pole-sie", and got shortened to just "pole", with meaning empty ground, place with no trees, and agrarian field.



One of the points I was trying to make at the beginning of the thread was that name Polska (in polish) is only attested around 15 century and not necessarily used to describe the full extent of first known "Poland", the land of Mieszko. For first 4 centuries we only know this name in latin, Polonia, Polania, Polenia, even Bulonia, never as Polska. And in this form only describing land of Polans, the tribe of Polanie, and never the whole dominion of Mieszko or Chrobry. I think we have to wait till 13 century to start to see Polonia used for the whole country, and this without Silesia and West Pomerania, which were separated since.

As recently stated by slavic historians and archeologists.............the slavs originate from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polesia

 

[Sile]

Slav origins

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slav movements as per archeology
Prague archaeological culture expanded from western Ukraine and eastern Poland to eastern Germany and lower Danube. The map from the academy of sciences as per archaeological evidence.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[LeBrok]

As recently stated by slavic historians and archeologists.............the slavs originate from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polesia

It is most likely place. There is also a question whether all the Slavs originated there, or was there another area close by too, implicated in slavic expansion?

 

[Nobody1]

The Slavs that reached the Elbe (i.e. all the Slavs east of the Elbe and Saxon limes) were known as the Polabian Slavs (Obotrites/Veleti[WILZEN]/Sorbs); Polabian stemming from the Slavic etymology of the Elbe/Albis river (Łaba); The Sorbs in the Lausitz are still around as such existing; However while Polabian, Kashubian and Polish are collective Lechitic (Lechisch) languages - Sorbish diverges from these; What is also interesting are the accounts of Saxo Grammaticus and Adam von Bremen;

Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII
Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

Adam von Bremen does not use the term Wenden/Winden he collectively uses the term Winuler (for all Slavs) and clearly states that these Winuler stem from the Wandalen(Vandals); We also find amongst the Obotrite (Polabian) Slavs the Warnen which used to be an old Germanic peoples of the same vicinity (Ptolemy II/X) and who Plinius (IV/XXVIII) associated with the Vandals; The interesting part about Winuler/Wandalen is that these terminologies also appear much earlier in the Origins saga of the Langobarden as Winiler in conflict with the Wandalen/Vandals;
http://postimg.org/image/qv7svsri5/

So apart from the Venedae and the Balto-Slavic complex the Vandals as well could be a major factor for the rapid expansion; Either subjugated and slavicized or proto-Slavic/semi-Slavic all along; The Przeworsk culture is strongly associated with the Vandals and will ultimately be decisive in whether Germanic, Slavic or Hybrid given that the Przeworsk culture also holds many LaTene (Iron-age) features most prob. very well a Hybrid zone;

 

[Sile]

The Slavs that reached the Elbe (i.e. all the Slavs east of the Elbe and Saxon limes) were known as the Polabian Slavs (Obotrites/Veleti[WILZEN]/Sorbs); Polabian stemming from the Slavic etymology of the Elbe/Albis river (Łaba); The Sorbs in the Lausitz are still around as such existing; However while Polabian, Kashubian and Polish are collective Lechitic (Lechisch) languages - Sorbish diverges from these; What is also interesting are the accounts of Saxo Grammaticus and Adam von Bremen;

Adam von Bremen - Book II/XVIII
Sclavanien also, eine sehr ausgedehnte Landschaft Germaniens, wird von den Winulern bewohnt, welche einst Wandalen hießen. Es soll zehnmal so groß sein wie unser Sachsen,

Adam von Bremen does not use the term Wenden/Winden he collectively uses the term Winuler (for all Slavs) and clearly states that these Winuler stem from the Wandalen(Vandals); We also find amongst the Obotrite (Polabian) Slavs the Warnen which used to be an old Germanic peoples of the same vicinity (Ptolemy II/X) and who Plinius (IV/XXVIII) associated with the Vandals; The interesting part about Winuler/Wandalen is that these terminologies also appear much earlier in the Origins saga of the Langobarden as Winiler in conflict with the Wandalen/Vandals;
http://postimg.org/image/qv7svsri5/

So apart from the Venedae and the Balto-Slavic complex the Vandals as well could be a major factor for the rapid expansion; Either subjugated and slavicized or proto-Slavic/semi-Slavic all along; The Przeworsk culture is strongly associated with the Vandals and will ultimately be decisive in whether Germanic, Slavic or Hybrid given that the Przeworsk culture also holds many LaTene (Iron-age) features most prob. very well a Hybrid zone;

We have 2 issues here
1- the term slavic, IMO has 2 meanings, a linguistic term and an ethnic term.
We have true "ethnic" slavs like Belorussia, Ukraine and Poland and then we also have a linguistic term for slavic , these are the 3 mentioned plus Russia, croatia, serbia etc etc.............I find it completely useless to speak of the linguistic slavs in regards to the topic.
The linguistic term slavic is equal to the western term of Latin.

Recently Russians have stated, we are 25% slavic, 25% central asians, 25% siberians and 25% uralic people.

2- the "ae" endings simply means, same as or similiar to the named tribe ..........we also have Samatae, Vandalae, Bastanae, Fennae etc.........so as an example, Samatae, Samatians and others tribes who are similar to samatians.

.........................

The Venedi like the Aestii are insignificant people/tribes who where only mentioned in history due to the amber trade and/or by Jordanes in glorifying the might of the goths as they annexed these coastal tribes

 

[Diurpaneus]

Slav origins

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


slav movements as per archeology
Prague archaeological culture expanded from western Ukraine and eastern Poland to eastern Germany and lower Danube. The map from the academy of sciences as per archaeological evidence.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Distribution of the Slavic clay plates(6th-7th c. AD)






most of them & the earliest from S and E Romania and Moldova.
I'm not saying that the Slavs came from Romania,but their genesis is complex,and they acculturated a lot of people.


"The Ister, which is the greatest of all the rivers which we know, flows always with equal volume in summer and winter alike. It is the first towards the West of all the Scythian rivers, and it has become the greatest of all rivers because other rivers flow into it. And these are they which make it great: [46]--five in number are those [47] which flow through the Scythian land, namely that which the Scythians call Porata and the Hellenes Pyretos, and besides this, Tiarantos and Araros and Naparis and Ordessos."

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_4.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_names_of_rivers

 

[Diurpaneus]

Slav origins

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


slav movements as per archeology
Prague archaeological culture expanded from western Ukraine and eastern Poland to eastern Germany and lower Danube. The map from the academy of sciences as per archaeological evidence.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Distribution of the Slavic clay plates:






most of them & the earliest from S and E Romania and Moldova.
I'm not saying that the Slavs came from Romania,but their genesis is complex,and they acculturated a lot of people.

he Ister, which is the greatest of all the rivers which we know, flows always with equal volume in summer and winter alike. It is the first towards the West of all the Scythian rivers, and it has become the greatest of all rivers because other rivers flow into it. And these are they which make it great: [46]--five in number are those [47] which flow through the Scythian land, namely that which the Scythians call Porata and the Hellenes Pyretos, and besides this, Tiarantos and Araros and Naparis and Ordessos

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_4.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_names_of_rivers

 

[Nobody1]

We have 2 issues here
1- the term slavic, IMO has 2 meanings, a linguistic term and an ethnic term.
We have true "ethnic" slavs like Belorussia, Ukraine and Poland and then we also have a linguistic term for slavic , these are the 3 mentioned plus Russia, croatia, serbia etc etc.............I find it completely useless to speak of the linguistic slavs in regards to the topic.
The linguistic term slavic is equal to the western term of Latin.

Recently Russians have stated, we are 25% slavic, 25% central asians, 25% siberians and 25% uralic people.

2- the "ae" endings simply means, same as or similiar to the named tribe ..........we also have Samatae, Vandalae, Bastanae, Fennae etc.........so as an example, Samatae, Samatians and others tribes who are similar to samatians.

.........................

The Venedi like the Aestii are insignificant people/tribes who where only mentioned in history due to the amber trade and/or by Jordanes in glorifying the might of the goths as they annexed these coastal tribes

But even with your definition of linguistic Slavs and ethnic Slavs the same questions remain;
For the linguistic Slavs must have emerged from somewhere as well or at least be greatly influenced by the ethnic Slavs;

 

[Sile]

But even with your definition of linguistic Slavs and ethnic Slavs the same questions remain;
For the linguistic Slavs must have emerged from somewhere as well or at least be greatly influenced by the ethnic Slavs;

yes they did emerge from somewhere as non-slavic ethnic people, who over time changed their language into the superior language of the area, which was slavic.

 

[Nobody1]

yes they did emerge from somewhere as non-slavic ethnic people, who over time changed their language into the superior language of the area, which was slavic.

But that would manifest the Balto-Slavic complex of the Venedi/Venedae and make the Vandal/Przeworsk complex Germanic(and Keltic/LaTene) until subjugated and adopting a Slavic language; Thats what one usually also reads out of the Historical and Archaeological backround; In other words the Slavs could only have expanded from the Balto-Slavic complex i.e. Venedae (Jordanes V/XXXIV);

 

[Sile]

But that would manifest the Balto-Slavic complex of the Venedi/Venedae and make the Vandal/Przeworsk complex Germanic(and Keltic/LaTene) until subjugated and adopting a Slavic language; Thats what one usually also reads out of the Historical and Archaeological backround; In other words the Slavs could only have expanded from the Balto-Slavic complex i.e. Venedae (Jordanes V/XXXIV);

I do not know why you glorify Jordanes, when major modern scholars ridicule him.

He is the only one I know of the ancient historians that does not place the Venedi next to the aestii on the coast of the baltic sea.

Scholars suggest that because the Goths firstly annexed the venedi and aestii on the coast before annexing the bastanae, that he made the venedae ( whoever they where) far greater than what they where to show that the Goths where a far superior society................note Jordanes was a Goth.
He also failed to name the bastanae anywhere. A tribe which was 10 times far greater than the Venedae

 

[Taranis]

One of the points I was trying to make at the beginning of the thread was that name Polska (in polish) is only attested around 15 century and not necessarily used to describe the full extent of first known "Poland", the land of Mieszko. For first 4 centuries we only know this name in latin, Polonia, Polania, Polenia, even Bulonia, never as Polska. And in this form only describing land of Polans, the tribe of Polanie, and never the whole dominion of Mieszko or Chrobry. I think we have to wait till 13 century to start to see Polonia used for the whole country, and this without Silesia and West Pomerania, which were separated since.

One important issue to consider there is, in medieval 'western' Europe, Latin was the language of not only the Catholic Church, but also administration, and this held certainly true for not only the Frankish Empire and its successor states, but also for medieval Poland. Consider that probably the most famous Pole of the Renaissance, Nicolaus Copernicus (hint: the name itself is latinized!) published in Latin.

 

[Nobody1]

I do not know why you glorify Jordanes, when major modern scholars ridicule him.

He is the only one I know of the ancient historians that does not place the Venedi next to the aestii on the coast of the baltic sea.Scholars suggest that because the Goths firstly annexed the venedi and aestii on the coast before annexing the bastanae, that he made the venedae ( whoever they where) far greater than what they where to show that the Goths where a far superior society................note Jordanes was a Goth.
He also failed to name the bastanae anywhere. A tribe which was 10 times far greater than the Venedae

May the ridiculing of Jordanes be as it may - no sufficient alternatives are provided (for the emergence and rapid expansion of the Slavs); Keeping in mind that Jordanes of the 6th cen AD wrote at a time after the Hunnic invasion and the Völkerwanderung thus peoples were no longer present where previously recorded (Plinius/Ptolemy/Tacitus); The Aestii and Bastarnae remain obscure on their own; Tacitus (XLV/II) "the Aestyan nations reside, who use the same customs and attire with the Suevians; their language more resembles that of Britain" and the Bastarnae are either Keltic or Germanic but def. beyond the Danube and used as mercenaries by already (3rd/2nd c BC) Philip V and Perseus of Macedon; If the Bastarnae are Germanic (Plinius/Strabo/Tacitus) than one of the earliest Germanic peoples recorded in classical History;

The deeds of the Greuthungi [Goth] Ermanaric and his grant kingdom is of course up for much critical view but also recorded in Ammianus (XXXI/III) and in Cassiodorus (but not on the Amal-kings list) and is also present in other Germanic/Norse sagas;

 

[Taranis]

Slav origins

Yes, Polesia certainly was part of the original Proto-Slavic homeland, but I would be in favour of a larger area than that. A good candidate, in my opinion, for the speakers of early Proto-Slavic (before the contact with Proto-Germanic speakers) would be the early iron age Milograd Culture:

 

[epoch]

But questions arise, WHAT were these Goths really, BEFORE the time they arrived on the gates of the Eastern Roman Empire and History?

Jordanes mentions during the 5th century three Gothic kings, apparently living under Hunnic rule, called Valamir, Thiudemir and Vidimir. These names are quite odd, as the first two almost certianly translate to Walamar and Thiudemar. The last seems odd in the normal Germanic naming scheme. Unless the letter "n" was left out and it actually read Vindimir. In that case it would translate to Wendemar, and the three kings would have names meaning famous Celt/Roman, famous German and famous Slav.