Phenotypes of the Portuguese

Tautalus

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Portuguese
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I2-M223 / I-FTB15368
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The Portuguese phenotype is diverse in terms of skin pigmentation, hair and eye color. In terms of skin pigmentation, it ranges from olive to fair skin. In terms of hair color, it ranges from black hair to blond and even redhead. In terms of eye color, it ranges from dark brown to hazel, blue and green. In this range the extremes do not represent the majority of the population. The majority of the population has light beige to moderately fair skin, dark brown hair and brown eyes. This site presents some of the Portuguese phenotypes in this range.​

 
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The Portuguese phenotype is diverse in terms of skin pigmentation, hair and eye color. In terms of skin pigmentation, it ranges from olive to fair skin. In terms of hair color, it ranges from black hair to blond and even redhead. In terms of eye color, it ranges from dark brown to hazel, blue and green. In this range the extremes do not represent the majority of the population. The majority of the population has light beige to moderately fair skin, dark brown hair and brown eyes. This site presents some of the Portuguese phenotypes in this range.​
Sincerely, for other Europeans, Portugueses are among the darkest pigmented and most often dark pigmented people of Europe. As a whole I see only Cypriots coming darker - sure some European regions are as dark or darker, I think in Sardinia by instance - Spain has some districts of dark people, but at a mean level is fairer -
Sure too, some Portugal districts, I think in Minho by instance, are less dark -
So I don't share your analyse here, sorry.
On another side, this dark trend of pigmentation don't make of Portugueses the most "southern" pop at an allover autosomal making -
? Who shall be the future Europeans, indeed?
 
Sincerely, for other Europeans, Portugueses are among the darkest pigmented and most often dark pigmented people of Europe. As a whole I see only Cypriots coming darker - sure some European regions are as dark or darker, I think in Sardinia by instance - Spain has some districts of dark people, but at a mean level is fairer -
Sure too, some Portugal districts, I think in Minho by instance, are less dark -
So I don't share your analyse here, sorry.
On another side, this dark trend of pigmentation don't make of Portugueses the most "southern" pop at an allover autosomal making -
? Who shall be the future Europeans, indeed?
Well, the photographs in Post no. 1 don't look any darker than other South Europeans or even Southern French.
 
Sincerely, for other Europeans, Portugueses are among the darkest pigmented and most often dark pigmented people of Europe. As a whole I see only Cypriots coming darker - sure some European regions are as dark or darker, I think in Sardinia by instance - Spain has some districts of dark people, but at a mean level is fairer -
Sure too, some Portugal districts, I think in Minho by instance, are less dark -
So I don't share your analyse here, sorry.
On another side, this dark trend of pigmentation don't make of Portugueses the most "southern" pop at an allover autosomal making -
? Who shall be the future Europeans, indeed?
Darkest pigmented ? What does that even mean ? That they all have olive completion ? Because that is not true.
There are Portuguese with an olive completion, but they are far from being the majority.
I think you have a preconceived idea of their phenotype, I wonder if you have ever been to Portugal.
I know this country from north to south, from east to west, I know the characteristics of my people.

For information the color palette I used as a reference is from 23andMe.
doZGJ7k.png
 
Darkest pigmented ? What does that even mean ? That they all have olive completion ? Because that is not true.
There are Portuguese with an olive completion, but they are far from being the majority.
I think you have a preconceived idea of their phenotype, I wonder if you have ever been to Portugal.
I know this country from north to south, from east to west, I know the characteristics of my people.

For information the color palette I used as a reference is from 23andMe.
doZGJ7k.png
It depends how you define a olive complexion as that word can be used to describe a wide range of tones. Some describe pale olive skin for example which may correspond roughly to "light beige" as used in your 23&me prediction. Compared to many Northern Europeans most Portuguese tend to have a comparatively more sallow unexposed skin. Eusebio Tamagnini in his survey of 11.601 adults from across Portugal (A Pigmentação dos Portugueses) found only 9,47% fair pinkish-white complexions (Von Luschan #3). He also found 45,09% pale but neutral-toned unexposed skin (Von Luschan #7-9) and 45,44% brunet complexions (Von Luschan #10-15).

I don't think it is accurate to describe the Portuguese as the clearly darkest pigmented Europeans. Although I have not yet tracked down the exact source in Southern Italians the weak majority have swarthy/brunet unexposed skin according to Coon. The 2012 Candille et al pigmentation GWAS study (Genome-Wide Association Studies of Quantitatively Measured Skin, Hair, and Eye Pigmentation in Four European Populations) found the Portuguese sample from the University of Porto lower in skin melanin index than the sample from the University of Rome where Southern Italians are overrepresented. Portuguese may very well be lighter skinned than Southern Italians. At least there is no indication that the Portuguese are the darkest-skinned European population which can't be assumed. That study actually found Poles and Portuguese similar in average skin melanin index although with more variation in the Portuguese sample which likely had more of truly swarthy skin.
 
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Darkest pigmented ? What does that even mean ? That they all have olive completion ? Because that is not true.
There are Portuguese with an olive completion, but they are far from being the majority.
I think you have a preconceived idea of their phenotype, I wonder if you have ever been to Portugal.
I know this country from north to south, from east to west, I know the characteristics of my people.

For information the color palette I used as a reference is from 23andMe.
doZGJ7k.png
I see a lot of Portuguese people and the majority is what we call dark skinned at an European level of criteria for "white people". You can believe in my objectivity here because I have NO agenda.
the 'olive' colour skin often cited is it's true a bit exagerated: this "dark" skin I refer too is rather a vey light vaguely 'olive' hue, sort of hue closer to "greyish light yellow or beige" than to pure olive colour (here I speak before tanning)- Whatever you think you have better looking to some surveys about reflectance of skin (means).
I add your personal case may not be taken as a reference for the Portugal ("white") population.
 
It depends how you define a olive complexion as that word can be used to describe a wide range of tones. Some describe pale olive skin for example which may correspond roughly to "light beige" as used in your 23&me prediction. Compared to many Northern Europeans most Portuguese tend to have a comparatively more sallow unexposed skin. Eusebio Tamagnini in his survey of 11.601 adults from across Portugal (A Pigmentação dos Portugueses) found only 9,47% pinkish-white complexions (Von Luschan #3). He also found 45,09% pale but neutral-toned unexposed skin (Von Luschan #7-9) and 45,44% brunet complexions (Von Luschan #10-15).

I don't think it is accurate to describe the Portuguese as the clearly darkest pigmented Europeans. Although I have not yet tracked down the exact source in Southern Italians the weak majority have swarthy/brunet unexposed skin according to Coon. The 2012 Candille et al pigmentation GWAS study (Genome-Wide Association Studies of Quantitatively Measured Skin, Hair, and Eye Pigmentation in Four European Populations) found the Portuguese sample from the University of Porto lower in melanin index than the sample from the University of Rome where Southern Italians are overrepresented. Portuguese may very well be lighter skinned than Southern Italians. At least there is no indication that the Portuguese are the darkest-skinned European population which can't be assumed. That study actually found Poles and Portuguese similar in average skin melanin index although with more variation in the Portuguese sample which likely had more of truly swarthy skin.
"pinkish-white" complexion doesn't signifies you have the lightest hues we find often enough, say, among Irish people. Coon find 20% or this complexion among Libaneses.
That said I agree with you concerning the difficulty to put correct words to describe skin colour with all the gradual tiny nuances (everybody knews "whites" are not "whites", and "yellows" are not "yellows" (BTW for reflectance the lightest East-Asians have almost the same measures as the darkest Europeans). If I have read your post before I wouldn't have lost my time about this aspect in my answer to Tautalus.
the "southern" skin colours are present in Central and Northern Europe, it's only the % which varies. They are taken as label for "Southern Europeans" or "Mediterraneans" because they make the majority in South (not everywhere), but no, they aren't present in all of these southerners.
 
"pinkish-white" complexion doesn't signifies you have the lightest hues we find often enough, say, among Irish people. Coon find 20% or this complexion among Libaneses.
That said I agree with you concerning the difficulty to put correct words to describe skin colour with all the gradual tiny nuances (everybody knews "whites" are not "whites", and "yellows" are not "yellows" (BTW for reflectance the lightest East-Asians have almost the same measures as the darkest Europeans). If I have read your post before I wouldn't have lost my time about this aspect in my answer to Tautalus.
the "southern" skin colours are present in Central and Northern Europe, it's only the % which varies. They are taken as label for "Southern Europeans" or "Mediterraneans" because they make the majority in South (not everywhere), but no, they aren't present in all of these southerners.
Most Irish have fair pinkish-white unexposed skin closest to Von Luschan #3. Hooton and Dupertuis found 91.7% of males with this skin tone and Helen Dawson in a comparable survey of West Coast Irish females found 88.9%. Very fair but still more neutral-toned complexions (closer to Von Luschan #1) were found much less common as the Irish have a strong vascular tendency. 3.8% of Dawson's female series had that alabaster/ivory skin tone against only 0.3% of the male series. It is a difference in undertone rather than level of pigmentation with the females being found for some reason less vascular than the males. Regarding the Lebanese it possible for more pigmented skin to have ruddy undertones so maybe it wasn't mostly light pinkish as with the Irish.

Moya Brennan (picture attached) is a good example of the minority of Irish with a more medium complexion. Hooton and Dupertuis found only 7.8% of Irish males who were relatively sallow and Dawson 7.7% of females. In Portugal or elsewhere in Southern Europe this would likely be no darker than average and thus might not necessarily be considered "olive" like it could be in Ireland. If that is considered olive than it may be reasonable to say that most Portuguese have olive-toned skin. Even many Central Europeans commonly have more sallow undertones which is consistent with the Polish and Portuguese coming out similar in average melanin index despite greater variation with the latter.
 

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I see a lot of Portuguese people and the majority is what we call dark skinned at an European level of criteria for "white people". You can believe in my objectivity here because I have NO agenda.
the 'olive' colour skin often cited is it's true a bit exagerated: this "dark" skin I refer too is rather a vey light vaguely 'olive' hue, sort of hue closer to "greyish light yellow or beige" than to pure olive colour (here I speak before tanning)- Whatever you think you have better looking to some surveys about reflectance of skin (means).
I add your personal case may not be taken as a reference for the Portugal ("white") population.

We are here exchanging arguments, based on our largely subjective opinions, and we are not going to get anywhere.
Instead, we can check scientific studies on the subject. Skin color, beyond the genetic factors involved, is highly correlated with latitude and the distribution of ultraviolet radiation. On the map below we can see a gradient of skin color in Europe, grouping southern European populations, the Iberian Peninsula, central/southern Italy and the Balkans. The Portuguese people, for the most part, in terms of skin color, are similar to other South European populations.​

cS32SHl.png


 
Most of the colors in Von Luschan scale don't really exist.
The scale had clear limitations. For example yellowish shades #4-6 are not continuous with the preceding or succeeding tiles. Despite this tiles #3, #7-9, and #10-15 are quite realistic and more or less correspond to natural shades. #3 is a fair pinkish-white, #7-9 is a darker sallow or cream white, and #10-15 is swarthy or light brownish.
 

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These types of subjects are silly. Nothing is gained by learning what a nations average pigmentation is etc etc. It is all about putting labels on people. No one gets any interesting information from it either. Scientific genome and ydna studies are far more interesting, as well as ancient history. Put them together and you can understand what people were, their diets, migration paths, and the ability to connect the dots of human beings.
 
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We are here exchanging arguments, based on our largely subjective opinions, and we are not going to get anywhere.
Instead, we can check scientific studies on the subject. Skin color, beyond the genetic factors involved, is highly correlated with latitude and the distribution of ultraviolet radiation. On the map below we can see a gradient of skin color in Europe, grouping southern European populations, the Iberian Peninsula, central/southern Italy and the Balkans. The Portuguese people, for the most part, in terms of skin color, are similar to other South European populations.​

cS32SHl.png
These maps reflect the means, not the individuals reality. the extremes which participate to these means are not the same everywhere. Selection doesn't uniformise completely the skins colours, just it tends to favour locally the most adaptive ones whatever the mutations which created the more or less often selected phoenotypes. That said, Portugueses are not extraordinary dark skinned people, their darkest extremes are not different of the darkest ones of the North Mediterranean regions (which are not so homogenous according to regions), and even these darkest skins can be found in other European countries, but less often. Some excceptions can be found among some individuals who retained some very remote non-European parts of origin. I agree that the reflectance studies (even better the ones which take in account the vascularity) are the most reliable; even here it would be interesting to examine the range of individual hues aamong the global means.
 
These types of subjects are silly. Nothing is gained by learning what a nations average pigmentation is etc etc. It is all about putting labels on people. No one gets any interesting information from it either. Scientific genome and ydna studies are far more interesting, as well as ancient history. Put them together and you can understand what people were, their diets, migration paths, and the ability to connect the dots of human beings.
There is no silly subject, only silly interpretation or agendas. Quality of observation and try to objectivity is good.
I agree the average skin pigmentation is less interesting that the distribution of indidual types which are the result of the most of genomic constitutions, and linked to the history of the populations. It's true this "ping-pong" exchanges of opinion become to be tiring, even for me! LOL... ATW I've never seen any trace of superiority or inferiority in the fact to have dark or light skin, but some people seem very uncomfortabel with this. (I'm myself not light-olive skinned, but I'm rather on the darker side of global European kinds of skin colour, so I would be easier considered as typical for Portugueses than for Irish people concerning skin! Enough for me here.
&: phoenotypes are part of the beauty of the world, and they are what our eyes see.
 

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