Phenotypes of the Greeks

archaiocapilos

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I was startled by the physical appearance of some Cretans, that looked almost Arabic with their long narrow faces, long aquiline noses, tanned skin and curly black hair (the archetype of haplogroup J). In other regions people had very round faces and short noses, more like North Africans (the heritage of haplogroup E1b1b, I suppose). Others still had fair hair and eyes and could have passed for French, Belgian or German. A country like France probably has an even greater diversity of physical appearances between regions. That is because the gene pool hasn't had time to uniformise the looks into a single ethnicity.
Cretans might look Anatolian/Levantine but not Arabic (Cretans are actually one of the people of Greece with higher light eyes percentage). This is a small fraction of what I call anti-Greek propaganda.
Round faces with short noses? Hmmmm, could it be Alpine R1b? No it must be E1b1b according to Maciamo... But from what I know regions with a lot of E1b1b are not particularly darker skinned than the rest of Greece (for example Cyprus with 20% E1b1b is darker than Peloponnese with 35% E1b1b / and Epirus with 30% E1b1b is lighter then the Aegean with 20% E1b1b). The only haplogroups that somehow reflect pigmentation are R1a1 and I in Greece.
 
E-V13 was formed in the Balkans before thousands of years and in the meantime it mixxed with local women (mtdna H, U, T, K, X, I) and Caucasoid Y-DNA ( I, J2, G2 and R1) so it looks totally Caucasian nowadays... I have never seen an Egyptian or Moroccan looking Greek so far, perhaps they are hiding.
 
E-V13 was formed in the Balkans before thousands of years and in the meantime it mixxed with local women (mtdna H, U, T, K, X, I) and Caucasoid Y-DNA ( I, J2, G2 and R1) so it looks totally Caucasian nowadays... I have never seen an Egyptian or Moroccan looking Greek so far, perhaps they are hiding.

I have not been to Egypt, so I can not think of that country, but I visited once Morocco, It was a country that I did not like, but I have to admit that there were a lot of Moroccans who could pass for natives of southern Europe. It's logical because only 14 km separate the northern coast of Morocco to the south of Europe.
 
E-V13 was formed in the Balkans before thousands of years and in the meantime it mixxed with local women (mtdna H, U, T, K, X, I) and Caucasoid Y-DNA ( I, J2, G2 and R1) so it looks totally Caucasian nowadays...I have never seen an Egyptian or Moroccan looking Greek so far, perhaps they are hiding.

Genes for phenotypes do exist. They are not located on the Y-chromosome, so there is no way of guessing someone's haplogroup from looks only. But if you mix two different looking populations, the genes for phenotypes will mix up the new hybrid population, so that after many generations some of the original phenotypes might reappear in some individuals.

Let's take a concrete example. During the Bronze-Age expansion of the Indo-Europeans to North Asia, fair-haired and blue-eyed Russian R1a blended with Mongoloid Siberian N1c. The first generation, having exactly 50-50 of genes from each side, would have looked perfectly intermediary between the two phenotypes, with darker hair and eyes than the R1a Europeans, but lighter than the N1c Siberians, thinner eyes than pure Europeans, but rounder than pure Siberians. And so on for each trait.

These hybrid Eurasians, by marrying each others, would have had children who looked inevitably more European or more Siberian, depending on how much each child inherited from each grandparent. A child getting most of his/her phenotypic genes from his/her European grandparent would evidently look more European, and vice versa. After ten or twenty generations, a small minority of individuals might end up looking completely European, others completely Siberian, while the majority would have all sorts of combination in between (e.g. a face typically Mongoloid but with blue eyes and very blond hair, or a face looking European but with black hair and dark brown eyes, or Mongoloid eyes with a European nose and chin, and so on).

Naturally, as phenotypical genes don't follow Y-chromosomes, there is no reason why the more European-looking individuals in the tribe should be R1a. Some will be R1a and others N1c, in more or less the same proportion as the original proportion of R1a and N1c lineages when the two populations met and merged with one another.

However, the important thing to understand here as far as this thread is concerned, is that the proportion of genes (phenotypical or other) present in each of the two original populations will remain in the new hybrid race. So if, for instance, 40% of the Russian R1a people were lactose tolerant, and the Russians contributed exactly half of the lineages in the blend, then roughly 20% of the hybrid individuals will also be lactose tolerant (actually it is more complicated than that as lactose tolerance is a dominant trait, so carrying just one allele is enough to be tolerant, which means that the percentage of tolerant individuals will vary from generation to generation depending on the distribution of homozygous and heterozygous individuals).

The things I was trying to explain in this thread were :

1) if the people who brought sick-cell disease to Europe were Africans that belonged almost exclusively to E1b1b (and T, I presume, as they seemed to have travelled together from North-East Africa to the Middle East and Europe), then it is not surprising to find an approximate correlation between the percentage of E1b1b (+ T) and the percentage of people with sickle-cell disease in a given population in Europe or the Middle East. However it is essential to understand that this correlation only works in a large population (at least hundreds of thousands people), and not at the individual or family level. It's not because a family has a lot of E1b1b or T lineages that they have more chance to have sickle-cell disease. What matters is the overal percentage in the country or wider region, as the gene for sickle-cell disease is located on chromosome 11 on not on the Y-chromosome.

2) the same is true for phenotypes. No direct correlation at the personal or familial level, but phenotypical traits do persist overall inside the gene pool of a country or region (or relatively secluded island, in the case of Crete).

As for Egyptians or Moroccans looking Greek, I never said that. It would be the other way round. Some Greeks might look Egyptian (as the gene flow of E1b1b was principally from Egypt to Greece and not the other way round). As explained above with Russians and Siberians, most Greeks will look intermediary between the numerous people that mixed together in the history of Greece. The more mixed a population is, the lower the chances of finding an individual that will resemble one of the original phenotypes. But out of 10 million people there surely are quite a few of them for each of the founding populations.
 
2) the same is true for phenotypes. No direct correlation at the personal or familial level, but phenotypical traits do persist overall inside the gene pool of a country or region (or relatively secluded island, in the case of Crete).

As for Egyptians or Moroccans looking Greek, I never said that. It would be the other way round. Some Greeks might look Egyptian (as the gene flow of E1b1b was principally from Egypt to Greece and not the other way round). As explained above with Russians and Siberians, most Greeks will look intermediary between the numerous people that mixed together in the history of Greece. The more mixed a population is, the lower the chances of finding an individual that will resemble one of the original phenotypes. But out of 10 million people there surely are quite a few of them for each of the founding populations.
No Maciamo there aren't any Egyptian-looking Greeks( only Levantines/West Asians might have phenotypical overlap with us, that's what I'm saying)...and Cretans don't look like Arabs, they might look like Armenians, Jews, Lebanese or Anatolians but not with Saudi Arabs or Iraqis...
 
However, the important thing to understand here as far as this thread is concerned, is that the proportion of genes (phenotypical or other) present in each of the two original populations will remain in the new hybrid race. So if, for instance, 40% of the Russian R1a people were lactose tolerant, and the Russians contributed exactly half of the lineages in the blend, then roughly 20% of the hybrid individuals will also be lactose tolerant (actually it is more complicated than that as lactose tolerance is a dominant trait, so carrying just one allele is enough to be tolerant, which means that the percentage of tolerant individuals will vary from generation to generation depending on the distribution of homozygous and heterozygous individuals).

2) the same is true for phenotypes. No direct correlation at the personal or familial level, but phenotypical traits do persist overall inside the gene pool of a country or region (or relatively secluded island, in the case of Crete).
But Peloponnesians (35% E1b1b) don't look like N.Africans Maciamo (not even a small percentage of them)...believe me it's not easy to find NAfrican phenotypes there (or in Epirus).
Maybe E1b1b1a2 did not involve a large founding population but became the dominant haplogroup in the Balkans by selection, drift or chance...I read somewhere that it has low diversity which would confirm this hypothesis
 
No Maciamo there aren't any Egyptian-looking Greeks( only Levantines/West Asians might have phenotypical overlap with us, that's what I'm saying)...and Cretans don't look like Arabs, they might look like Armenians, Jews, Lebanese or Anatolians but not with Saudi Arabs or Iraqis...

archaiocapilos said:
But Peloponnesians (35% E1b1b) don't look like N.Africans Maciamo (not even a small percentage of them)...believe me it's not easy to find NAfrican phenotypes there (or in Epirus).
Maybe E1b1b1a2 did not involve a large founding population but became the dominant haplogroup in the Balkans by selection, drift or chance...I read somewhere that it has low diversity which would confirm this hypothesis

What I wrote is clear, I think. Let me rephrase it again for you : in a hybrid population, a small minority of individuals will inherit just the right genes to look like one of the founding population. If the founding population in question came from Egypt and was E1b1b + T, then perhaps 1 person out of 1000 in the Peloponese will look distinctly like these ancient Egyptians. Note that modern Egyptians have changed due to the inflow of genes from the Arabic peninsula, especially in the north of the country.

When I wrote Arabs, I meant in the broader sense, including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqi, not just Saudis. Nevertheless, many Greeks do look closer to North Africans to me than to the European mainstream. Obviously Turks, Syrians or Lebanese will also share some of these phenotypes as they share the same haplogroups and the same founding populations. But the majority of West and North Turks looks more European than many Peloponese Greeks. Just have a look at Greek politicians. So many of them could pass for Tunisian, Algerian or Egyptian (although not Moroccan). Here are a few examples of phenotypes strongly influenced by the E1b1b + T gene pool in Greece.

Karolos Papoulias, President of Greece

225px-Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg


George Papandreou, Jr., PM of Greece

200px-George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009.jpg


Konstantinos Stephanopoulos, former president of Greece

225px-Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg


Konstantinos Mitsotakis, former PM of Greece

225px-Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg



---------


The blend of phenotypes from North Africa, Anatolia and Europe evolved into a distinctive Greek phenotype. These people don't look anything but Greek or South Italian (which is basically the same from a genetic point of view). Their phenotypes were especially influenced by E1b1b, G2a and J2. The Anatolian and Caucasian features are pretty clear here (but were virtually absent in the above examples).

Georgios Karatzaferis, MP

200px-GeorgiosKaratzaferis.jpg


Haris Kastanidis, Minister of the Interior

200px-Charis_Kastanidis.jpg



Stavros Lambrinidis, Minister for Foreign Affairs

200px-Stavros_Lambrinidis_%28cropped%29.jpg



--------


Some Greeks look more South Slavic or Balkanic (which is basically Greek mixed with Slavic), like these :

Stefanos Manos, MP

200px-Stefanos_Manos.jpg


Dimitris Avramopoulos, Mayor of Athens

225px-Avramo1.jpg


I would say he looks like a Serb.

Giannis Ragousis, minister

225px-Ragousis_Giannis.jpg



--------

Here are examples of a Greek politicians who look more Western European (stronger R1b and I influence)

Dimitrios Droutsas, former Minister of Foreign Affairs

220px-Dimitris_droutsas.jpg


Born in Cyprus. One wonders if he doesn't have some British ancestry to look like that.

Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7%CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%82_1.jpg


Could easily pass for French or North Italian.


--------


Then there are other interesting admixtures, like this guy who looks more like a blend of R1b + J2 + I1, with slightly slanted eyes and reddish hair, yet distinctly Greek.

Pavlos Geroulanos, Minister for Culture and Tourism

200px-Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg
 
When I wrote Arabs, I meant in the broader sense, including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqi, not just Saudis. Nevertheless, many Greeks do look closer to North Africans to me than to the European mainstream. Obviously Turks, Syrians or Lebanese will also share some of these phenotypes as they share the same haplogroups and the same founding populations. But the majority of West and North Turks looks more European than many Peloponese Greeks. Just have a look at Greek politicians. So many of them could pass for Tunisian, Algerian or Egyptian (although not Moroccan). Here are a few examples of phenotypes strongly influenced by the E1b1b + T gene pool in Greece.

Karolos Papoulias, President of Greece

225px-Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg


George Papandreou, Jr., PM of Greece

200px-George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009.jpg


Konstantinos Stephanopoulos, former president of Greece

225px-Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg


Konstantinos Mitsotakis, former PM of Greece

225px-Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg
Those phenotypes actually exist in North Africa because of Levantine (Phoenician, Jewish, -Arabic in the broader sense-) influence, they are not the original N/African phenotypes that existed there when E1b1b came in Greece (if it came directly from Egypt and not from Middle/East)...
 
Here are examples of a Greek politicians who look more Western European (stronger R1b and I influence)

Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7%CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%82_1.jpg


Could easily pass for French or North Italian.
He origins from Pontus, a region with propably low frequency of Y-DNA [I-M170] but high frequency of R1b1b2-L23 (Anatolian/Armenian clade).
 
I'm not denying the foreign influence on Greek phenotype, I'm just saying that this influence is either West Asian (Anatolians) and South West Asian (Levantine Arabs, Phoenicians, Jews) either Central/North European (Slavic, Celtic, Roman). This blend (European & West Asian) combined with the native South European element created Greeks. North African element is almost absent.
 
Just compare the E1b1b phenotypes of the Greek presidents and prime ministers above with their alter egos in Algeria and Tunisia.

Abdelaziz Bouteflika, Algerian President

225px-Bouteflika_%28Algiers%2C_Feb_2006%29.jpeg


Fouad Mebazaa, Tunisian President

225px-Fouad_Mebazaa_15_jan_2011.jpg


Mohamed Ghannouchi, Tunisian PM

225px-Mohamed_Ghannouchi.jpg
 
If we accept ethnic Berbers as native North Africans considering their ancient presence, quite of them resemble Europeans or, at least, look distinct from the nowadays North Africans (main appearence). I think unmixed Berber tribes are the most similar to an original North African, but there are just a few of them today.
 
Just compare the E1b1b phenotypes of the Greek presidents and prime ministers above with their alter egos in Algeria and Tunisia.

Abdelaziz Bouteflika, Algerian President

225px-Bouteflika_%28Algiers%2C_Feb_2006%29.jpeg
His phenotype doesn't exist in Greece...
Fouad Mebazaa, Tunisian President

225px-Fouad_Mebazaa_15_jan_2011.jpg


Mohamed Ghannouchi, Tunisian PM

225px-Mohamed_Ghannouchi.jpg
They could be Spaniards or French, nothing to do with E1b1b...
 
What I wrote is clear, I think. Let me rephrase it again for you : in a hybrid population, a small minority of individuals will inherit just the right genes to look like one of the founding population. If the founding population in question came from Egypt and was E1b1b + T, then perhaps 1 person out of 1000 in the Peloponese will look distinctly like these ancient Egyptians. Note that modern Egyptians have changed due to the inflow of genes from the Arabic peninsula, especially in the north of the country.

When I wrote Arabs, I meant in the broader sense, including Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians and Iraqi, not just Saudis. Nevertheless, many Greeks do look closer to North Africans to me than to the European mainstream. Obviously Turks, Syrians or Lebanese will also share some of these phenotypes as they share the same haplogroups and the same founding populations. But the majority of West and North Turks looks more European than many Peloponese Greeks. Just have a look at Greek politicians. So many of them could pass for Tunisian, Algerian or Egyptian (although not Moroccan). Here are a few examples of phenotypes strongly influenced by the E1b1b + T gene pool in Greece.

Karolos Papoulias, President of Greece

225px-Karolos_Papoulias_.jpg


George Papandreou, Jr., PM of Greece

200px-George_Papandreou_by_PASOK_on_November_23%2C_2009.jpg


Konstantinos Stephanopoulos, former president of Greece

225px-Kostis_stephanopoulos.jpg


Konstantinos Mitsotakis, former PM of Greece

225px-Constantine_Mitsotakis_by_David_Shankbone.jpg



---------


The blend of phenotypes from North Africa, Anatolia and Europe evolved into a distinctive Greek phenotype. These people don't look anything but Greek or South Italian (which is basically the same from a genetic point of view). Their phenotypes were especially influenced by E1b1b, G2a and J2. The Anatolian and Caucasian features are pretty clear here (but were virtually absent in the above examples).

Georgios Karatzaferis, MP

200px-GeorgiosKaratzaferis.jpg


Haris Kastanidis, Minister of the Interior

200px-Charis_Kastanidis.jpg



Stavros Lambrinidis, Minister for Foreign Affairs

200px-Stavros_Lambrinidis_%28cropped%29.jpg



--------


Some Greeks look more South Slavic or Balkanic (which is basically Greek mixed with Slavic), like these :

Stefanos Manos, MP

200px-Stefanos_Manos.jpg


Dimitris Avramopoulos, Mayor of Athens

225px-Avramo1.jpg


I would say he looks like a Serb.

Giannis Ragousis, minister

225px-Ragousis_Giannis.jpg



--------

Here are examples of a Greek politicians who look more Western European (stronger R1b and I influence)

Dimitrios Droutsas, former Minister of Foreign Affairs

220px-Dimitris_droutsas.jpg


Born in Cyprus. One wonders if he doesn't have some British ancestry to look like that.

Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7%CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%82_1.jpg


Could easily pass for French or North Italian.


--------


Then there are other interesting admixtures, like this guy who looks more like a blend of R1b + J2 + I1, with slightly slanted eyes and reddish hair, yet distinctly Greek.

Pavlos Geroulanos, Minister for Culture and Tourism

200px-Pavlos_Geroulanos.jpg



hmmm

lets see 1by 1
Papoylias it is not easily to put somewhere, He is born in Epirus, besides it is very old to have clear characteristics,

George papandreou is looking after his mother who was not of Greek origin, if you cut his mustache he could not even look greek, by his leaps shape he can be E-V13

Stefanopoulos could be E-V13, or J Y-Dna. I believe E-V13 due to lips shape
Mitsotakis surely not E, R1b is possible
karatzaferis is difficult, from the photos we could connect him with Papoylias to an epirotan style

kastanidis , possible R1a but the fat nose litlle wories me
Lamprinidis is surely J or G but big % of being J
manos is difficult
Avramopoulos could be all exept R1a and
ragkousis is strange case difficult

chrysohoidis is typical G i Believe

Geroulanos and droutsas is surely another style, Very big forehead and tall neck, hmm that type can be found in agrinio area mostly,
naaah I influence is big
all 3 ragousis geroulanos and droutsas, could be from later times, or special areas origin like aetolo-acarnania or Serres
geroulanos could be from Enetocracy times


Those phenotypes actually exist in North Africa because of Levantine (Phoenician, Jewish, -Arabic in the broader sense-) influence, they are not the original N/African phenotypes that existed there when E1b1b came in Greece (if it came directly from Egypt and not from Middle/East)...

well to both I remember that older style style anthropology had 3 main races,
the alpine of North,
the steppe or dinaric to middle and the mediterrenean,

well according macciamo theory 1/2 of r1b people is not even looking origianl r1/b

so i take 4 women in anatolia and have 2 kids I have 4 R1b lloking and 4 r1b carriers not looking to me,
if I go to greece this 8 man will give 64 people, BUT ONLY 16 (1/4) will be same like 1rst R1b

now in 3 generation we go to 1/8 etc,

THAT MEANS IF MAN WERE MOST THE EMIGRANT MAJORITY THEN MODERN POPPULATIONS LOOKS AFTER ALL AREAS R1b pass, they carry genes from anatolia to scotland via moving generations,
But the majority of modern areas is after the mother look,
that offcourse depends on how many women they had with them,

But I believe that R1b of west Europe today does not have the original look of R1b in early times
so R1b in scotland surelly is different from R1b in Caucas,
the same with R1a
a R1a people in India have dark skin and is different than a R1a in Denmark,
the similarity depends in generations multiple and how many women where carried from starting point,

IF I COMPARE A R1a M17 (or 19) of India with a R1a same in Denmark
THE DIFFERENCES ARE HUGE,

Baltic people have mostly a saami looking, why? why in russia we find finnic elements,
cause it mostly the phenotype that was there invasion,

That is why older anthropology spoke about mediterrenean race,

now historically I know at least 2 cases thyrrenian pirates stealing Attica women, and Romans stealing the women of Savini people,

so next generation of romans would be 50% savini looking !!!!! wow, no romans at all

the temptation to find a Y-Dna is wow, although if mother was chinese he could be looking chinese
after all we are all males, and we learn to search marks on who's the kid? :wary2:

on the other some typical of IE we may found them from caucas to scotland,
but who are they?
if you live in an area of many sub culture you learn to recon people, that forces us to put people to Haplogroup,
some characteristic is typical,
the difference for example of R1a people with E-v13 by my notice is the leaps and forehead,
r1a people have at least in areas we believe are majority thin leaps that do not turn outside,
while E-V13 have opposite,
although that can be wrong, cause a boy is mostly after mother and not by father,


PS i like very much to put people in Haplogroup due to some characteristics
although it is like gambling,
 
Last edited:
I insist that Mitsotakis is proto-typical J2a (especially his eyebrows and nose).
Geroulanos and Droutsas do seem a little more North/European looking.
Chrysochoidis resembles some Greek/S.Italians, Georgians, Armenians (J2a + G2a + R1b1b2-L23)
Papandreou is actually 75% non-Greek (3 out of 4 of his grandparents were forreigners) and looks North/European rather than Peloponnesian Greek
Papoulias has also North/European blood in his genealogy (one Bavarian grand-parent I think) and looks like what Coon called Alpines...
 
I insist that Mitsotakis is proto-typical J2a (especially his eyebrows and nose).
Geroulanos and Droutsas do seem a little more North/European looking.
Chrysochoidis resembles some Greek/S.Italians, Georgians, Armenians (J2a + G2a + R1b1b2-L23)
Papandreou is actually 75% non-Greek (3 out of 4 of his grandparents were forreigners) and looks North/European rather than Peloponnesian Greek
Papoulias has also North/European blood in his genealogy (one Bavarian grand-parent I think) and looks like what Coon called Alpines...


yes papoulias and karatzaferis have that style,
 
Dimitris Avramopoulos, Mayor of Athens

225px-Avramo1.jpg



Michalis Chrysohoidis, MP & minister

225px-%CE%9C%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A7%CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%90%CE%B4%CE%B7%CF%82_1.jpg


Could easily pass for French or North Italian.
They are perfect examples of what Coon called Dinaric-Mediterraneans (Mesocephals, long forehead, straight or convex nose, moderately tall, light to dark brown hair and eyes)
 

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