Of perceptions and self-perceptions

[norbert]

I'm curious about a phenomenon I have come across the internet and social media in particular. It is not my intention to appear polemical or to offend anyone, nor do I wish to single out one people. For instance, the algorithm on social media keeps flooding my feeds with pseudohistorical kitsch about various ancient empires, cultures and peoples, something I'm sure most social media users are familiar with. And these pages, whether they're bot-generated or run by actual people, attract a lot of comments that regularly end up in heated debates among literal idiots who have never met each other and never will. Sometimes they're entertaining to read but I tend to ignore them for most of the time. To take one example, I see posts about ancient Iranian history on a regular basis. Naturally you're going to find a lot of comments from Iranians. What caught my attention is how deluded many Iranians are about themselves, especially those living in the West. A lot of them think they're white or that they can pass for Europeans. One of them even claimed that many Iranians can pass for northern Europeans or that many look like American actors. I have met many Iranians in my life and think they're great people. They have certain weaknesses, like the obsession with consumerism and status, but they are well-educated and good to hang out with. However, even before social media, I would regularly notice their obsession with Europeans and their phenotype, at least with some of its stereotypical depictions. Yes, there is no single European phenotype but let's not stray from the topic. Especially Iranian women love to dye their hair blond or wear blue contacts. Iranians are also notorious for their predilection for plastic surgeries but that's another topic.

Where does this obsession come from? Do Iranians actually believe that they are close to Europeans? Is it the result of an inferiority complex for being part of the broader Middle East? They have no reason for that. One's for sure: I have never met an Iranian that looks European or even southern European. Sure, some Iranians are lighter than others but they are still easy to spot, even those who have a European father or mother and I know two such cases. The most recent funny thing I saw on the internet is a contemporary depiction of the Parthians. They are shown as white, blond- or red-haired warriors. It looks like something out of a pseudo-scientific, late 19th century nordicist fairy tale, except that these fairy tales are advocated by people who only speak the language of an originally steppe people but are deeply rooted in their current homeland genetically, meaning that their ancestry is predominantly derived from non-IE-speaking, ancient populations of present-day Iran and this is perfectly visible from their appearance. You may see a European-looking person here and there but Iran is a country of almost 90 million people and it's called cherry-picking. The Parthians themselves were a subgroup of the Scythian-related Saka who were already heavily mixed with East Eurasians. The picture of the Parthians I'm talking about shows them after they've already been ruling Iran for a 3-4 centuries. So the idea that they looked like Europeans is ridiculous. That's hardly worth discussing and surely it must make sense to even those who adhere to this kind of identity escapism or even denialism.

I have noticed a similar trend among Levantines, most notably the Lebanese. They have this perception about themselves that they look like Italians. When you dig a little into their discussions, you'll get the impression that the deep motives lie in a claim of superiority in relation to the Arabs. Some Levantines (I'm not including the Israelis due to their European background, at least in the case of the Ashkenazim and Sephardim) can pass as Europeans because there has been a lot of European admixture in the region, starting with ANF in the calcolithic, to the Greeks, Romans and Crusaders, although I doubt that the latter left a noteworthy genetic impact on the region.

 

[Jovialis]

I'm on social media a lot and I see this as well.

I think there is certainly some phenotypic overlap to a degree, particularly with Southern Europeans (Due to share ancestral components; particularly Anatolian and CHG). Nevertheless, there's a clear difference most of the time. Italians for example being a confluence and cline of Central/North West European, & Balkan/Aegean/Anatolian sources constantly re-enforcing itself throughout pre-history /history. While the middle east has had divergent influences, as you have noted with East Eurasian; but also South Asian, and Sub-Saharan African influences in post-classical/medieval times. Often the similarity is magnified (ancient components) and the divergence is ignored (E. Eurasian, S. Asian, and SSA). The problem is this becomes a quasi-political/ethno football that overlaps into the rhetoric of many odd bed fellows across the spectrum. Thus the frequency of discussion is magnified.

 

[Maciamo]

I can understand why some Iranians would want to pass for Europeans.

1) It's prestigious. Europe is more developed and richer than Iran or other Middle Eastern countries.

2) They speak an Indo-European language and therefore feel a closer connection to Europe.

3) Iran stands out among its neighbours thanks to its higher education level. Combined with the fact that they don't have good relations with most of their neighbours, it's understandable that they would want to feel more European, especially for Iranians who have already migrated to Western countries by choice.

While it is true that to pure Iranians could rarely pass for Europeans (at least to people who like to analyse ethnic phenotypes), I have seen a few half-Iranian half-European people who could pass for full European. For example actress Sarah Shahi (real name Aahoo Jahansouzshah), who is half-Iranian half-Spanish could easily pass for an Italian.

 

[norbert]

Exactly, Maciamo. Like I said, I have much respect for the Iranians as they value education and because they're generally not as backwards as the rest of the Middle East. I also mentioned their weakness in succumbing to a consumerist, kitch notion of Western culture. For example, I have noticed the obsession of many freshly arrived Iranians with posting pictures with Christmas trees on social media. We all know that all the Christmas deco is rooted in consumerism. Even the cult of Christmas is mostly about presents and fun. But then I have met other examples like this one guy who came to Austria to study classical music. He is a well-respected musician. I saw a beautiful concert a few months ago, performed by a group of young Iranian musicians combining jazz and traditional Iranian music. It was a wonderful experience. What I'm saying is that it's one thing to love Mozart or Beethoven and another to think you look like them.

Iranians can look back to a long and rich history and culture. They have absolulety no reason to long to be something they're not. It's quite a shame that Western governments are so hostile to Iran which only prolongs and strengthens the Mullah regime. Had they left Iran alone, without all the meddling for the purposes of regime change and without the stupid sanctions, the Mullahs would have been swept from power a long time ago because, as you noticed, Iran has a young, vibrant and extremely well-educated population that would no longer tolerate the theocracy. But they're also patriots and they'd rather suffer a couple of years or even decades more than become someone's puppets, which is what those Reza Pahlavi fans among Iranian exiles wish for their country. A lot of those Iranians in Los Angeles, many of whom fled their country with bags of money stolen from the people, are a bunch of clowns who would have sold their country to the highest bidder.

 

[Jovialis]

Iranians/Caucasians are also markedly different from Levantines, and North Africans.

Also in addition to Steppe being modeled 40% CHG, there's also the excess in southern Europeans of course:

 

[norbert]

I find this conflation of CHG with Iran_N (or GanjDareh_N) highly erroneous. It is clear that Iran_N was a continuum of "southern-shifted" populations, including components that CHG lacked. Whoever these ancient populations that carried haplogroup L and R2 were, they might have been a more significant component of Iran_N than the transcaucasian bearers of haplogroup J. Despite their partial affinities, Iran_N and CHG were two separate groups of West Eurasians and that's not only due to the CHG's isolation but because Iran_N was made up of something else, too, and I'm not talking about the highly hypothetical Basal Eurasians either.

I'm also very skeptical about the SSA admixture among Iranians (and other Middle Easterners as well) as shown in the chart above. There is a minority of people of African Zanj descent in Iran. They were being brought as slaves until the British put an end to the trade in 1848. The SSA admixture among Arabs is known to go back to the slave trade. But I don't think you can say that there is an admixture among the general population. That would be the same as if someone in 1000 years claimed that white Americans have SSA admixture just because there are mixed marriages today.

 

[Vitruvius]

It's just another case of internet larp. As most have agreed the vast majority of Iranians and Levantines do not resemble Southern Europeans (or any Europeans for that matter). There will always be outliers that do, but they will never be genetically European, regardless. There is some shared ancestry as has been mentioned through Caucasian and Anatolian inputs on both sides of the Mediterranean but they are not homogeneous to Europe in the same way the European continent is to itself. Middle Easterners are a separate race and I don't see why this would be a problem for anyone to accept. To illustrate this one can simply look at crowds of different nationalities to begin to ascertain averages. The larger the crowd the harder it is to cherry pick.

Sicilian Italians



Syrians



Even discounting the obvious skin and hair color differences, the facial feature disparity between the two crowds is large. The nose breadth in Syrians is much more significant on average compared to Sicilian Italians.

 

[Jovialis]

I find this conflation of CHG with Iran_N (or GanjDareh_N) highly erroneous. It is clear that Iran_N was a continuum of "southern-shifted" populations, including components that CHG lacked. Whoever these ancient populations that carried haplogroup L and R2 were, they might have been a more significant component of Iran_N than the transcaucasian bearers of haplogroup J. Despite their partial affinities, Iran_N and CHG were two separate groups of West Eurasians and that's not only due to the CHG's isolation but because Iran_N was made up of something else, too, and I'm not talking about the highly hypothetical Basal Eurasians either.

I'm also very skeptical about the SSA admixture among Iranians (and other Middle Easterners as well) as shown in the chart above. There is a minority of people of African Zanj descent in Iran. They were being brought as slaves until the British put an end to the trade in 1848. The SSA admixture among Arabs is known to go back to the slave trade. But I don't think you can say that there is an admixture among the general population. That would be the same as if someone in 1000 years claimed that white Americans have SSA admixture just because there are mixed marriages today.

As I said in the other thread, all models are provisional, until better samples can be used.

Here's a version I made that follows a combination of both Iran_N/CHG.

Sarno et al. 2021 does the same, but mis-labeled it as just Iran_N in the graphic:

Nevertheless, the Iran_N in the Raveane model is using only Iran_N; The one previous one I posted.

 

[Jovialis]

I find this conflation of CHG with Iran_N (or GanjDareh_N) highly erroneous. It is clear that Iran_N was a continuum of "southern-shifted" populations, including components that CHG lacked. Whoever these ancient populations that carried haplogroup L and R2 were, they might have been a more significant component of Iran_N than the transcaucasian bearers of haplogroup J. Despite their partial affinities, Iran_N and CHG were two separate groups of West Eurasians and that's not only due to the CHG's isolation but because Iran_N was made up of something else, too, and I'm not talking about the highly hypothetical Basal Eurasians either.

I'm also very skeptical about the SSA admixture among Iranians (and other Middle Easterners as well) as shown in the chart above. There is a minority of people of African Zanj descent in Iran. They were being brought as slaves until the British put an end to the trade in 1848. The SSA admixture among Arabs is known to go back to the slave trade. But I don't think you can say that there is an admixture among the general population. That would be the same as if someone in 1000 years claimed that white Americans have SSA admixture just because there are mixed marriages today.

Regarding SSA, it has been demonstrated in the past the the African Slave trade had a genetic impact on the Middle east, compared to earlier people.

For many, it is not enough to really come through in phenotype. The same is true for a lot of Hispanics who "look White" (Are basically White) but have as much as 5% SSA.

Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods - Nature Communications

Archaeological and historical records had shown ancient Egypt before and after Ptolemaic and Roman periods to be a hub of human migration and exchange. Here, Schuenemann and colleagues analyse ancient mitochondrial and nuclear DNA to investigate the genetic history of Egypt.

www.nature.com

 

[Vallicanus]

Regarding SSA, it has been demonstrated in the past the the African Slave trade had a genetic impact on the Middle east, compared to earlier people.

For many, it is not enough to really come through in phenotype. The same is true for a lot of Hispanics who "look White" (Are basically White) but have as much as 5% SSA.

Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods - Nature Communications

Archaeological and historical records had shown ancient Egypt before and after Ptolemaic and Roman periods to be a hub of human migration and exchange. Here, Schuenemann and colleagues analyse ancient mitochondrial and nuclear DNA to investigate the genetic history of Egypt.

www.nature.com

Most Afrikaans-speaking White South Africans have at least 5pc non-West Eurasian/Caucasoid with Khoisan, Indonesian or South Indian ancestry.

 

[norbert]

Regarding SSA, it has been demonstrated in the past the the African Slave trade had a genetic impact on the Middle east, compared to earlier people.

For many, it is not enough to really come through in phenotype. The same is true for a lot of Hispanics who "look White" (Are basically White) but have as much as 5% SSA.

Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods - Nature Communications

Archaeological and historical records had shown ancient Egypt before and after Ptolemaic and Roman periods to be a hub of human migration and exchange. Here, Schuenemann and colleagues analyse ancient mitochondrial and nuclear DNA to investigate the genetic history of Egypt.

www.nature.com

The SSA admixture among Arabs is basically female-mediated. Relatively high percentages of mtDNA haplogroup L can be found among Yemenis, Palestinians, Jordanian, Bedouins and Syrians. Up to 7% among the Hazara in Afghanistan which is very strange. The Hazara are a Turko-Mongolic people that has been brutally persecuted by the Pashtuns over the last two centuries. They weren't exactly powerful slave traders. Other sources claim that their mtDNA make-up is 35% East Eurasian and 65% West Eurasian or that they harbour about 2% of African and Oceanian admixture. So all these models are contradicting each other and it begs the question how reliable the methodology and data, i.e. the interpretation are. This is still a relatively young science with lots of room for error and noise.

What also puzzles me are the high SSA admix numbers among North Africans. While that shouldn't be all too surprising considering their geography, if a population has up to 20% of female-mediated SSA admixture, that should be much more visible phenotypically than it actually is. North Africans look like your typical Arabs/Middle Easterners. Some Kabyle, who are Berber, might pass as Europeans. Think of football legend Zinedine Zidane.

 

[Vitruvius]

The SSA admixture among Arabs is basically female-mediated. Relatively high percentages of mtDNA haplogroup L can be found among Yemenis, Palestinians, Jordanian, Bedouins and Syrians. Up to 7% among the Hazara in Afghanistan which is very strange. The Hazara are a Turko-Mongolic people that has been brutally persecuted by the Pashtuns over the last two centuries. They weren't exactly powerful slave traders. Other sources claim that their mtDNA make-up is 35% East Eurasian and 65% West Eurasian or that they harbour about 2% of African and Oceanian admixture. So all these models are contradicting each other and it begs the question how reliable the methodology and data, i.e. the interpretation are. This is still a relatively young science with lots of room for error and noise.

What also puzzles me are the high SSA admix numbers among North Africans. While that shouldn't be all too surprising considering their geography, if a population has up to 20% of female-mediated SSA admixture, that should be much more visible phenotypically than it actually is. North Africans look like your typical Arabs/Middle Easterners. Some Kabyle, who are Berber, might pass as Europeans. Think of football legend Zinedine Zidane.

In my opinion north Africans have always resembled SSAs to some varying degrees. Part of this is due to their high Taforalt ancestry which likely has at least partial origin with a green Sahara population which is now extinct. Other aspects come from more recent and direct SSA contributions. Of course, not all look this way, but it's very typical. Populations like Kabyle are the exception to the rule and uncommon.

 

[Vallicanus]

In my opinion north Africans have always resembled SSAs to some varying degrees. Part of this is due to their high Taforalt ancestry which likely has at least partial origin with a green Sahara population which is now extinct. Other aspects come from more recent and direct SSA contributions. Of course, not all look this way, but it's very typical. Populations like Kabyle are the exception to the rule and uncommon.

Interestingly enough ancient depictions of Numidian horsemen from what is now Algeria show very curly hair. Dreadlocks?

 

[norbert]

In my opinion north Africans have always resembled SSAs to some varying degrees. Part of this is due to their high Taforalt ancestry which likely has at least partial origin with a green Sahara population which is now extinct. Other aspects come from more recent and direct SSA contributions. Of course, not all look this way, but it's very typical. Populations like Kabyle are the exception to the rule and uncommon.

I don't have that impression in general but I did see some people from the Maghreb that looked like they might have some recent SSA ancestry. Like I said, that shouldn't be all too surprising considering the geography, especially in the distant past when there was a green Sahara. Even the desert isn't that much of a barrier. But that doesn't automatically mean that there was a lot mixing going on. The Taforalt samples may not be representative for all Iberomaurisians. This use of modern proxies (the Yoruba in their case) isn't always making sense and this can be said about many other examples like the Nganasan for Uralic admixture, the Onge for East Eurasian admixture in South Asia etc. The Iberomaurisians derive most of their ancestry from Levantine sources, although some claim it was the other way round, based on the rather clumsy argument that the microburin lithic technique was introduced into Natufian culture through the Mushabians of the Sinai peninsula who are said to be an off-shoot of the Iberomaurisians. But lithic blades have been used by Ahmarian (Masraqan & Nebekian) hunter-gatherers in the Levant way before the Iberomaurisians. Even if we accept the argument that the Ancestral North Africans made up a significant component of the Natufians, we are talking about early Eurasian back-migrants into Northeast Africa, into an area that doesn't know a clear border between Africa and Asia.

Contrary to what some people think, E is a very ancient Eurasian haplogroup. The argument that a haplogroup's origin should be sought in accordance with its highest diversity in our times is questionable at best. R has its highest diversity in Europe today but we know that this haplogroup originated in central Asia or Siberia. I2a has its highest diversity in Western Ukraine but that was not always the case as the hotspots of this diversity in the distant past must have been somewhere on the territory of Germany or Western Europe. So the bearers of haplogroup E went from the Middle East to Africa in multiple waves, spanning millenia. Perhaps it can also be speculated that the replacement of E by J on the Arabian peninsula and in the Levant caused at least one such wave, although much later.

In respect to their haplogroups, the Taforalt samples are entirely Eurasian, especially their mtDNA (R0, M1, J, U6, T, H). Most of the paternal line derives from E-M78 which came from Northeast Africa but I would be willing to bet that it was a very common haplogroup in the Levant before being largely displaced by J. Using modern populations as proxies for ancient ones is preposterous. The paper "Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry" makes the claim that West Africans (again represented by the Yoruba as modern proxies, thus also highly erroneous) harbour as much as 12.5% ancestry derived from Taforalt-related sources, not vice versa. You would expect at least half the known Iberomaurusian samples to belong to some of the SSA clades of mtDNA L.

 

[norbert]

Interestingly enough ancient depictions of Numidian horsemen from what is now Algeria show very curly hair. Dreadlocks?

This is not how they are depicted by the Romans who used them as auxiliaries. Curly hair and dreadlocks are not the same. I have seen some modern depictions that resemble what you say. Will Ferrell has curly hair and so does former Austrian football player and coach Herbert Prohaska.

 

[Vitruvius]

I don't have that impression in general but I did see some people from the Maghreb that looked like they might have some recent SSA ancestry. Like I said, that shouldn't be all too surprising considering the geography, especially in the distant past when there was a green Sahara. Even the desert isn't that much of a barrier. But that doesn't automatically mean that there was a lot mixing going on. The Taforalt samples may not be representative for all Iberomaurisians. This use of modern proxies (the Yoruba in their case) isn't always making sense and this can be said about many other examples like the Nganasan for Uralic admixture, the Onge for East Eurasian admixture in South Asia etc. The Iberomaurisians derive most of their ancestry from Levantine sources, although some claim it was the other way round, based on the rather clumsy argument that the microburin lithic technique was introduced into Natufian culture through the Mushabians of the Sinai peninsula who are said to be an off-shoot of the Iberomaurisians. But lithic blades have been used by Ahmarian (Masraqan & Nebekian) hunter-gatherers in the Levant way before the Iberomaurisians. Even if we accept the argument that the Ancestral North Africans made up a significant component of the Natufians, we are talking about early Eurasian back-migrants into Northeast Africa, into an area that doesn't know a clear border between Africa and Asia.

Contrary to what some people think, E is a very ancient Eurasian haplogroup. The argument that a haplogroup's origin should be sought in accordance with its highest diversity in our times is questionable at best. R has its highest diversity in Europe today but we know that this haplogroup originated in central Asia or Siberia. I2a has its highest diversity in Western Ukraine but that was not always the case as the hotspots of this diversity in the distant past must have been somewhere on the territory of Germany or Western Europe. So the bearers of haplogroup E went from the Middle East to Africa in multiple waves, spanning millenia. Perhaps it can also be speculated that the replacement of E by J on the Arabian peninsula and in the Levant caused at least one such wave, although much later.

In respect to their haplogroups, the Taforalt samples are entirely Eurasian, especially their mtDNA (R0, M1, J, U6, T, H). Most of the paternal line derives from E-M78 which came from Northeast Africa but I would be willing to bet that it was a very common haplogroup in the Levant before being largely displaced by J. Using modern populations as proxies for ancient ones is preposterous. The paper "Paleolithic DNA from the Caucasus reveals core of West Eurasian ancestry" makes the claim that West Africans (again represented by the Yoruba as modern proxies, thus also highly erroneous) harbour as much as 12.5% ancestry derived from Taforalt-related sources, not vice versa. You would expect at least half the known Iberomaurusian samples to belong to some of the SSA clades of mtDNA L.

When it comes to phenotypes perceptions are always relativistic. If you don't see it then I won't argue it. I will say that Natufians definitely plot on a taforalt-like cline which does indicate Taforalt influence, but as you said, Taforalt itself is nowhere near totalistically SSA-like. It is probably some sort of inbetween of western eurasian and green sahara which itself may be already diverged somewhat from the broader SSA genepool. In my perspective the levant and north africa phenotypically are basically an increasing cline of features that I would typically associate with SSAs. Does that mean these features directly came from SSAs instead of taforalt or something else? No, not necessarily. I'd even argue the majority of it is probably indeed from taforalt like populations. It's just my perception is all and it would not surprise me if Taforalt itself had SSA-like features, even if it was not necessarily directly SSA ingressed.

I really have no argument in terms of trying to assign a racial origin to haplogroups. As I've said in the past many times, I think the focus on ethnotyping haplogroups is a mostly futile task given how little of our makeup they represent.

It is very possible that modern West Africans do indeed share some component from the now extinct Green Sahara peoples. I don't discount it and I do recall that segment of the dzudzuana study. I am not trying to argue that iberomaurusians and their sahara-like component is necessarily identical to prehistoric west africa. Really quite the contrary. Whether Taforalt has any direct SSA at to contrast a Green Sahara component is a very difficult question to answer and will require a Green Sahara sampling.

 

[Vitruvius]

Interestingly enough ancient depictions of Numidian horsemen from what is now Algeria show very curly hair. Dreadlocks?

I'm not familiar with many depictions of the ancient Numidians. The best I know of is the bust of king Juba I who does have "very curly" coiled hair. You can find coiled hair in totally unmixed western Eurasian populations but it's quite rare. One can also find coiled hair in SSA populations of course.

 

[Vallicanus]

I'm not familiar with many depictions of the ancient Numidians. The best I know of is the bust of king Juba I who does have "very curly" coiled hair. You can find coiled hair in totally unmixed western Eurasian populations but it's quite rare. One can also find coiled hair in SSA populations of course.

Here is an article about Numidian cavalry as represented on Trajan's Column in Rome:

The Great Berber Kingdom of Numidia in the Shadow of Rome

The ancient Romans placed a lot of the world under their heel and into their sphere of influence. Numerous cultures, nations, and civilizations fell in their wake.

www.ancient-origins.net

 

[HereToLearn]

I can understand why some Iranians would want to pass for Europeans.

1) It's prestigious. Europe is more developed and richer than Iran or other Middle Eastern countries.

2) They speak an Indo-European language and therefore feel a closer connection to Europe.

3) Iran stands out among its neighbours thanks to its higher education level. Combined with the fact that they don't have good relations with most of their neighbours, it's understandable that they would want to feel more European, especially for Iranians who have already migrated to Western countries by choice.

While it is true that to pure Iranians could rarely pass for Europeans (at least to people who like to analyse ethnic phenotypes), I have seen a few half-Iranian half-European people who could pass for full European. For example actress Sarah Shahi (real name Aahoo Jahansouzshah), who is half-Iranian half-Spanish could easily pass for an Italian.

View attachment 16369

View attachment 16370

She doesn't strike me as so specifically Italian-looking honestly, I'd guess more Cyprus or that general area. Maybe she could pass (the make-up helps of course) but as she would maybe pass in Italy she would pass anywhere else in Southern Europe too.

She might remind a little bit of Luisa Ranieri but her "look and feel" is definitely more western.

 

[norbert]

In my perspective the levant and north africa phenotypically are basically an increasing cline of features that I would typically associate with SSAs.

Can you offer some examples for this? I'm really trying to understand your perception of the phenotypes in said regions. Like I said, I really can't see any indications of SSA admixture except in some North Africans but even those cases are rare and the people that might have some SSA-like features usually know about that ancestry, meaning it's rather recent. However, I'm puzzled about your views on the phenotypes in the Levant.