New Study on Bourbon DNA by Gerard Lucotte

[Anne Frances Spackman]

That is very interesting about Bourbon-Busset y-dna and worth pursuing for someone into genetic testing of the ancient royal y-lines. Perhaps it would be R1b. I also wonder about the G2 of the presumed head of Henri IV.

I saw on a site that there was a genetic test done on a living member of the Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty who also belongs to haplogroup G2a:

Habsburg Family DNA Project genealogy project

A collection of genealogical profiles related to Habsburg Family DNA Project

www.geni.com

I do not of course know where to corroborate this result with more data. But, it is interesting that the male y-line I guess originally from the ancient noble house of Lorraine might have been G2a (the Hapsburg in the line of Hapsburg-Lorraine coming through the female line as I recall).

Anyway, I looked over the numbers I got for house Capet again in my dna results: House of Capet J1a2b1b2c1 (BY100/FGC14030/Y6915/ZS2926). I am really new to dna analysis, but I saw a few days ago that the number J1 haplogroup they gave me I now recognize as a mtdna haplogroup, though they gave it to me in relation to the y-line dna in that section with all of the other y-dna. I guess that this means that the dna haplogroup I received is associated with females of the Capetian dynasty and not the Capetian y-line.

So yes, perhaps there were no false paternity events up to the sons of Louis XIII: Louis XIV and Philippe, from the time of the earliest Capetians. But, the only way that the Capetian line might be unbroken is if the presumed head of Henri IV wasn't really his head after all. I read this online: "The head had a lesion near the nose, a pierced ear, and a healed facial wound, and the embalming methods used on the head matched those used at the time of the king's death."
This is an interesting article:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/second-life-henri-ivs-severed-head-180963174/

I do think it is possible, however, that Louis XIV and Philippe Bourbon Duc D'Orleans were possibly fathered by a noble/royal non-Bourbon from the house of Wettin or Saxe-Coburg and not by Louis XIII; so maybe it would help if Bourbon-Busset y-dna could be determined, and especially if it turned out to be r1b. Then perhaps we could see if Capetians and Wettins were related in the very distant past, and if the two sons of Louis XIII were biologically his own without actually being able to test Louis XIII, who apparently went bald early and wore wigs, so there are no hairs of his remaining today to do a dna test on them. However, it seems also that the Capetians of today who descend from these two sons of Louis XIII also descend from 2 sisters of Louis XIII, making them definitely descended from Henri IV Bourbon as well as other Bourbons further back in time, including Charles Bourbon Duc de Bourbon et D'Auvergne born in 1401 even if there was a false paternity event in Louis XIII's sons.

 

[Venko2257]

Thanks for the interesting links, Anne!

The House of Habsburg went extinct in the male line with the death of Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor (1685 - 1740). His eldest daughter and eventual heiress, Maria Theresa (1717 - 1780), married the former Duke of Lorraine, Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor (1708 - 1765), and kickstarted the House of Habsburg-Lorraine, which flourishes to this day.

On King Henri IV, the mtDNA of the head does not seem to match the mtDNA of the heart of Louis XVII, so the former object probably was not what it has been presented as. In case anyone's wondering, their common matrilineal ancestress was Anne of Austria, Margravine of Brandenburg (1275 - 1327).

I don't really want to shift this thread to a genealogical discussion (even if it is kind of essential to the matter), but you're absolutely correct. Even if King Henri IV was not the biological father of King Louis XIII for whatever reason, he would be an ancestor of a startling number of people via his daughters, as well as through his natural children with his mistress, Gabrielle d'Estrées (1573 - 1599). Incidentally, the King of Spain, the King of the Belgians, the Grand Duke of Luxembourg and the Prince of Liechtenstein are all descendants of his, the monarchs of Spain and Luxembourg in the male line, along with other ways. In the next generation, the King of the UK (a Protestant) will also be a descendant. Long story short, Henri IV was the maternal grandfather of both Charles II of England (1630 - 1685) and James II of England (1633 - 1701). Both of them had mistresses, whose posterity was within the ranks of the British nobility, and once again both kings were ancestors of the late Diana, Princess of Wales (1961 - 1997), mother of the current Prince of Wales.

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Yes, I had read about the descendants of Charles II and James II, including Bonnie Prince Charlie many years ago; Charles II had at least 14 illegitimate children who all descend from Henri IV as Charles I' wife was Henrietta Maria Bourbon, daughter of Henri IV Bourbon. I am most likely related to her confessor and friend Henry Jermyn, Earl of Saint Albans, whose grandfather Sir Robert Jermyn had a sister Dorothy Jermyn Duke who is most likely my ancestor as some of her Duke great-grandchildren moved to Colonial Virginia. I guess many or most of the current royals descend from Henri IV Bourbon.

 

[Venko2257]

I guess many or most of the current royals descend from Henri IV Bourbon.

And you'd be right. Many of them indeed do, though it's mostly the Catholic ones, as I suggested above. Protestant and Orthodox royals generally do not have recent Catholic blood, although there are certain exceptions, e.g. the last Tsar (or King) of the Bulgarians, as well as the last King of Romania, both of them Orthodox Christians.

Out of curiosity, Anne, who is the most recent royal you're descended from, if I may ask? Based on what is usually the case for Americans of European descent, I would assume you're a descendant of some medieval monarchs at the very least, though there are no hard rules. Actually, I had a quick look at the ancestry of Robert Jermyn (1539 - 1614), who was probably the brother of your ancestress, though I couldn't find her anywhere, and I found Diarmait Mac Murchada (c. 1110 - 1171) amongst his own ancestors. Who was he? Why, the King of Leinster from 1126 to his abdication shortly before his death. Yes, an American with Irish roots - who could have guessed?

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Hi, Venko! Yes, after Henry VIII and the Protestant Reformation of course, marriages among the royals changed. Occasionally, there might be a Catholic Queen to a Protestant King, of course, but the heir to the British throne must be an Anglican after the Act of Settlement in 1701. The most recent British royals from whom I legally descend are Edward III of England and also James I Stuart of Scotland (3 times). My 3X great-grandfather Washington Lawrence Barnett was descended from Gov. John West of Virginia (and I show up as being related to John West's 1st cousin Ferdinando Wainman through dna matching) and through John West's maternal grandmother Catherine Carey, he descended also from Mary Boleyn. Many say Catherine Carey was Henry VIII's illegitimate child with Mary Boleyn, but of course no one knows for sure, though I think that Catherine Carey looked like Henry VIII, and her cousin Queen Elizabeth I had Catherine buried in Westminster Abbey along with the English royalty. Through Mary Boleyn and several other ancestors, I am descended 11 times legally from Edward III and probably 14 times at least, 1 time (probably 3 X) from Lionel of Antwerp, Edward III's son, and 10 X (probably 11X) from John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster. There is a small chance another of my ancestors descends from Thomas of Woodstock son of Edward III as well. Through Isabel Capet, wife of Edward II, I descend from Philippe III "le Hardi" of France but I also descend many times from Edward I and from his second wife Marguerite Capet as well as other Plantagenets and their wives such as Blanche D'Artois Capet. Thus I also descend from Saint Louis IX Capet of France and Louis XIII Capet the Lion of France many more times. I am still trying to figure out how I have a genetic match to the mtdna of either Henri IV of France or James III of Scotland; it seems both of their mothers had U5b. I don't legally descend from either person, but possibly many European female royals had this mtdna. I'll need to look into the European ancestors of Henry VIII. Incidentally, according to my dna analysis, I don't show a very close relation to House Spencer, though I do have a dna match to House Spencer, and Catherine Carey's father was legally William Carey whose mother was Margaret Spencer Carey. Thus, I am convinced Catherine was Henry's, though it is possible otherwise.

 

[Venko2257]

Wow! Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Anne!

Minor correction: it was Louis VIII of France (1187 - 1226) who was known as "The Lion", not Louis XIII. You mention U5b as the common mtDNA haplogroup of those two kings. According to this page in Eupedia, it should be H instead. The reason is that Henri IV, James III and Maria Theresa were all descended in the female line from Anne of Austria, Margravine of Brandenburg (1275 - 1327), who I already mentioned in post #62 above. Why the discrepancy?

As for the paternity of the children of Mary Boleyn (c. 1499 - 1543), I don't have any strong opinions, though I'm content for the moment to treat them as her husband's, who was actually a third cousin of his wife's supposed lover, so that could explain the resemblance between Catherine and the king.

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Yes, of course. I know it was Louis VIII not Louis XIII who was the Lion, but I made a typo mistake. Sorry! I was tired this morning I guess, having rheumatoid arthritis and on methotrexate makes me anemic and tired until I take plenty of iron! And, my sister was talking to me while I was trying to write a reply. I am descended from Louis VIII (1187-1226) nicknamed "The Lion" (Le Lion) and not Louis XIII that I know of. Louis VIII was also known as Louis Coeur-de-Lion and Louis the Lion-Heart apparently. But, I was referring to the mtdna of James III of Scotland, not James II of Great Britain, who of course descended matrilineally from Henriette Marie Bourbon and Marie de Medici; James III of Scotland was born much earlier in 1451 and his mother was "Marie of Guelders" Egmond-Gelre, so I guess she was U5b. The mtdna of Henri IV Bourbon whose mother was Jeanne D'Albret III Queen of Navarre is supposedly U5b as well, though Henri IV's wife Marie de Medici did have mtdna H, and it seems that many of the royals have had H mtdna as you showed on your link! I am trying to learn more about the minor nobles and royalty branches, but I am rather busy. And, it's hard to find genetic information sometimes!

 

[Venko2257]

No worries, Anne! With so many people with one and the same name, mistakes are hard to avoid for pretty much everyone, really.

All right, seems like I'll have to steer this in a genealogical direction, if only to provide some much-needed background on that genetic discrepancy. Let's see how King Henri IV of France, King James III of Scotland and Empress Maria Theresia are all descended in the female line from one and the same individual:

1) Anne of Austria, Margravine of Brandenburg (1275 - 1327) -> Mechtild/Matilde, Markgräfin von Brandenburg (1288 - bef. 1329) -> Agnes von Schlesien (1312 - 1362) -> Margaret of Brieg (1342 - 1386) -> Margaret of Bavaria (1363 - 1424) -> Mary of Burgundy, Duchess of Cleves (1393 - 1466) -> Catherine of Cleves (1417 - 1479) -> Mary of Guelders (c. 1434/5 - 1463) -> James III of Scotland (1452 - 1488)

2) The first five women are the same as in 1) -> Agnes of Burgundy, Duchess of Bourbon (1407 - 1476) -> Margaret of Bourbon (1438 - 1483) -> Louise of Savoy (1476 - 1531) -> Marguerite de Navarre (1492 - 1549) -> Jeanne d'Albret (1528 - 1572) -> Henry IV of France (1553 - 1610)

3) Anne of Austria, Margravine of Brandenburg (1275 - 1327) -> Judith/Jutta, Markgräfin von Brandenburg (1298 - 1353) -> Sophie, Gräfin von Henneberg-Schleusingen (? - 1372) -> Margarete, Burggräfin von Nürnberg (1359 - 1391) -> Anna von Meissen, Landgräfin von Thuringen (1377 - 1395) -> Scholastika, Herzogin von Sachsen (? - c. 1463) -> Malgorzata, Herzogin von Schlesien-Glogau in Sagan (c. 1417 - aft. 1491) -> Margarethe, Gräfin von Mansfeld (1436 - 1468) -> Brigitte, Gräfin zu Stolberg in Wernigerode (1468 - 1518) -> Barbara von Querfurt (aft. 1481 - 1511) -> Amalie, Gräfin von Mansfeld (c. 1506 - aft. 1544) -> Dorothea Reuss zu Greiz (1523 - 1572) -> Margarethe von Schönburg-Glauchau (1554 - 1606) -> Dorothea, Gräfin zu Solms-Laubach (1579 - 1631) -> Anna Catharina Dorothea, Gräfin von Salm, Wild- und Rheingräfin zu Salm-Kyrburg (1614 - 1655) -> Christine Friederike, Herzogin von Württemberg (1644 - 1674) -> Princess Christine Louise of Oettingen-Oettingen (1671 - 1747) -> Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (1691 - 1750) -> Maria Theresa (1717 - 1780)

Phew! According to the pictures you have helpfully provided, the first two individuals (James III and Henri IV) were U5b, while the third one (Maria Theresia) was H, as specified in the link to Eupedia in my previous post. I had a look around and it appears that the U5b haplogroup for the French king was taken from that infamous head, so I'd take it with a grain of salt again. No idea for James III though. Non-maternity events are supposedly rare, though I think it is possible for the father to transmit his mtDNA to his child(ren), but that's very uncommon. You have definitely given me food for thought, Anne!

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Very interesting, Venko.
Here is a link that I found: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/haplogroups-of-european-kings-and-queens.25236/ It shows a little more also about royal haplogroups.
I saw and confirmed the first two lines that you have listed. However, in the case of Empress Maria Theresa, I found a different set of parents for Barbara von Querfurt (aft. 1481 - 1511): Elisabeth von Anhalt-Kothen von Mansfield and her father was supposedly Bruno der Altere von Querfurt. Elisabeth's mother was as I found it Anna Countess von Mansfield von Honstein abt. 1410 > Countess Anna (Sophie) Von Honstein Von Klettenburg 1377> Countess Elisabeth Von Hohenstein 1340 > Countess Luitgard Von Falkenstein> Lucarg Von Magdeburg> Countess Luigard Von Nassau 1172 > Gwendolyn Kunigunde Von Spanheim. I could be wrong, however, could you send me a link where I can find your matrilineal line for Empress Maria Theresa? That would help me a lot. Also, some of the royal mtdna seems to be T2 such as with Barbara of Celje as well as H in different numbers.

 

[Almanza]

Thank you for the information!
You are saying that Leandro Borbon has been confirmed as a biological son of King Alfonso XIII, right? In that case his sons should have the same Y-Chromosome DNA as him (more or less). If Leandro Junior gets tested, his result should be compared to that of, say, Prince Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma. After that, we will know if a Non-paternity event has occurred.
Is King Carlos IV the biological father of Infante Francisco?
Is Duke Francisco the biological father of King Alfonso XII?
Who knows?

Dear sir, the blood father of king Alfonso XII is believed to have been Enrique Puigmoltó y Mayáns the 3 Earl of Torrefiel. You can understand the dna (first of all Y DNA) consequences…

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Very interesting! I couldn't find much information about Enrique Puigmoltó y Mayáns the 3 Earl of Torrefiel, and what I did find was in Spanish. I started reading about Carlos IV, Duke Francisco, Alfonso II, and Alfonso III. The latter's mother descended from Phillippe Bourbon, son of Louis Bourbon, son of Louis XIV of France and from two different daughters of Henri IV Bourbon as well, so even with possible false paternity events in the male line up to King Alfonso III, these Borbons still descend through Alfonso III's mother from the Kings of France Louis XIV and Henri IV. I don't guess, however, that they'll release the y-dna haplogroup of either King Alfonso III or Leandro Borbon, but possibly they could get the y-dna from Leandro's son as someone suggested earlier. But, when did anyone truly confirm that Leandro Borbon was a son of Alfonso III with dna testing? On Feb 17, 2019 Venko put an article up that said there was no dna test to confirm paternity, as a judge thought it wasn't necessary... And, maybe it wasn't necessary, though, as someone said in 2019, and maybe one was done, anyway. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...tard-is-uncle-of-Spains-king-judge-rules.html

 

[Venko2257]

Very interesting, Venko.
Here is a link that I found: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/haplogroups-of-european-kings-and-queens.25236/ It shows a little more also about royal haplogroups.
I saw and confirmed the first two lines that you have listed. However, in the case of Empress Maria Theresa, I found a different set of parents for Barbara von Querfurt (aft. 1481 - 1511): Elisabeth von Anhalt-Kothen von Mansfield and her father was supposedly Bruno der Altere von Querfurt. Elisabeth's mother was as I found it Anna Countess von Mansfield von Honstein abt. 1410 > Countess Anna (Sophie) Von Honstein Von Klettenburg 1377> Countess Elisabeth Von Hohenstein 1340 > Countess Luitgard Von Falkenstein> Lucarg Von Magdeburg> Countess Luigard Von Nassau 1172 > Gwendolyn Kunigunde Von Spanheim. I could be wrong, however, could you send me a link where I can find your matrilineal line for Empress Maria Theresa? That would help me a lot. Also, some of the royal mtdna seems to be T2 such as with Barbara of Celje as well as H in different numbers.

Sure, it's Genealogics, a most useful website. Yeah, I was afraid it might be something like that, an alternate ancestry. As you can see here, Barbara von Querfurt indeed appears as the daughter of Bruno, Herr von Querfurt (? - 1495), but her mother is shown as a different woman to the one you have presented. Europäische Stammtafeln is given as the source, though I am unable to confirm or deny either way. At the end of the day, I simply don't know which one of us is right and we should also consider the possibility that it could be neither. By the way, was Geni your source for the ancestry?

H is the mtDNA haplogroup of two distinct lines in European royalty. One can readily be traced back to Anne of Bohemia and Hungary (1503 - 1547), the other one is giving us headaches at the moment, as it is the one of the aforementioned Empress Maria Theresia. T2 appears to be rare, which makes sense as Barbara of Cilli (1392 - 1451), pretty much the progenitrix of the line, was of vaguely Slavic descent (her patrilineal grandmother was Catherine of Bosnia, Countess of Cilli, a member of the former Bosnian royal family).

Dear sir, the blood father of king Alfonso XII is believed to have been Enrique Puigmoltó y Mayáns the 3 Earl of Torrefiel. You can understand the dna (first of all Y DNA) consequences…

Long time no see, Almanza! I can indeed see the consequences of such a genetic test, though I'd say the Legitimist claim is the weakest one of them all, so there may not be that much to lose regardless.

 

[Almanza]

Yes indeed. Long time! I am willing to be back as I am strongly concerned by the topic. And I am willing to follow much more those who are interested in the truth , I mean the « blood truth. Sorry for my bad English language

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Dear Venko, thank you for the link! Are there any other available affordable European peerage books in English as well that would help us in this that you know of? I would be willing to acquire one. Europäische Stammtafeln looks great, but is there a translated version in English? I studied German for 2 years, but I am not up to working with peerage books in German... and I couldn't find a translated copy of this. Moreover, 29 Volumes is a lot to store in my limited space-I wonder if there is any other shorter translated book available? Well, Venko, I didn't know T2 was rare. I have a lot of T2 and H in my mtdna analysis results of ancestors, as well as U5. H it seems is very common in Europe. Do you know of any similar Spanish peerage books as well? (Of course, in English) I would love to find one. I can hardly find anything about noble houses of Spain.

 

[Venko2257]

Thanks from me too, Anne! I'm not aware of a non-German version of Europäische Stammtafeln, though I don't think that much knowledge of the language is needed to comprehend any of the tables within the books. There is always the good old "Almanach de Gotha", the recent editions of which are indeed in English; that might be worth checking out. On the Spanish nobility, I had a very cursory glance, which led me to this page, which has links to "The Golden Book of the Spanish Nobility". The individual parts may be in Spanish, a language I myself am not at all fluent in, but through the wonders of modern technology, it shouldn't be too difficult to get it to a working level, so to speak. I'm afraid that this is all I could offer you at the moment!

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Thank you!!

 

[Almanza]

Thank you!!

Dear Anne, I can help you to find Spanish nobility information. I learned a lot this field indeed. And my ggf was a unofficial son of King Alfonso XII and his opera singer mistress

 

[Almanza]

Thank you!!

Dear Anne, I can help you to find Spanish nobility information. I learned a lot this field indeed. And my ggf was a unofficial son of King Alfonso XII and his opera singer mistress

 

[Almanza]

Thank you!!

Dear Anne, I can help you to find Spanish nobility information. I learned a lot this field indeed. And my ggf was a unofficial son of King Alfonso XII and his opera singer mistress

 

[Anne Frances Spackman]

Thank you, Almanza! That's very interesting about your g-gf! I would love to know where to find any Spanish noblility ancestry books in English, if possible. Venko showed me a link also up above. I bought a copy of Almanach de Gotha in English as well.