New map of YDNA haplogroup R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93)

It seems like that, but may be it's not a Proto Slavic but most likely a Skytho-Sarmatian SNP?

The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.
 
The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.
Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language? In Hungarian and in Mongolian Bator means brave, respectively warrior. I don't know if it is found also in Turkic Languages. Maybe someone can tell. As far as I know Huns, Avars, Sarmatians did not cremated their dead. West Hungary in roman times and after, maybe befor too was a melting pot of different people. From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead? As I know Proto slavs mayhave lived long time in the neighbourhood of the Skytians and Sarmatians so most likely with cultural exchange they exchanged also SNPs. Hopefully new aDNA will shed some more lite in this issue.

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Yes, Batyr, Baatyr, Bahadur are also used in Turkic languages. Even Russians have it. It sounds like Bogatyr, probably, borrowed from Turco-Mongols during the golden Horde times.
 
The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.
Could you please point at any DNA research on Nogais? As far as I know Nogais and Kyrgyz are somehow related to each other. Nogais unlike other Turkic tribes are mentionned in the traditional Kyrgyz songs.
 
Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?
For your situation, it is better to do a SNPs test and join the YFULL.
 
Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language?
Has a meaning like father,pater,governor,older brother.Mostly in eastern and south slavic dialects.However it's etymology come from "brother".
Is it related i do not know.
 
Could you please point at any DNA research on Nogais? As far as I know Nogais and Kyrgyz are somehow related to each other. Nogais unlike other Turkic tribes are mentionned in the traditional Kyrgyz songs.

It isn't the most dominant line of course. But it reaches between 10-20. Here are the two separate sources on the matter. Keep in mind the first link has alot of opinions but it mentioned M458 Nogai.

http://suyun.info/userfiles/bulletin/2016-8/eng_Nogais2_20161009_8_[1_2]_3_BEHPS_2016_8.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3355373/
 
Very interesting points. Has Bato any meaning in Slavic Language? In Hungarian and in Mongolian Bator means brave, respectively warrior. I don't know if it is found also in Turkic Languages. Maybe someone can tell. As far as I know Huns, Avars, Sarmatians did not cremated their dead. West Hungary in roman times and after, maybe befor too was a melting pot of different people. From wich time to wich time did slavs cremate their dead? As I know Proto slavs mayhave lived long time in the neighbourhood of the Skytians and Sarmatians so most likely with cultural exchange they exchanged also SNPs. Hopefully new aDNA will shed some more lite in this issue.

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I agree. I think because most slavic middle aged remains are cremated(prior to Christianization) that the assumption is M458 are Slavic cause remains haven't popped up yet so they must have "cremated their dead". Of course absence of samples doesn't necessarily mean M458 or all if it cremated their dead. As you say the cultural exchange between these peoples, maybe not all practiced the same funeral rites. For instance its said the Huns had a similar rite that is commonly Slavic at the funeral of Attila, referencing the possible ethnically mixed nature of these steppe folk. Maybe thats why not all Slavs are "uniform" in ethnic origin. Most M458 diversity is in Central Europe. As I understand diversity is usually contingent with possible origin or at least major settlement. Absent ancient DNA most papers have just called it "Central European". Sadly I think the last big paper on this matter was 2014. So its been 5 years since any serious paper mentioned M458 or its developing clades. No ancient DNA either. Yet we have 2000 plus ancient Bronze Age Tollense warriors and no YDNA reported since it was discovered like 5 years ago. Very fishyyy. lol
 
For instance its said the Huns had a similar rite that is commonly Slavic at the funeral of Attila, referencing the possible ethnically mixed nature of these steppe folk.

Do you mean Huns did cremated their dead? As I know and legend tells, Atilla was not cremated but was buried in 3 coffins under a river.

Regarding fishyyy, you are right. It will be difficult to prove.


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Has a meaning like father,pater,governor,older brother.Mostly in eastern and south slavic dialects.However it's etymology come from "brother".
Is it related i do not know.
Thank you Milan!

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Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?
I don't think it is a slavic line. Yes today it is widely spred among slavic people but this means not it is its origin. It's origin is most likely from the Srubna and/or Andronovo culture. This people were among the ancestors of the Cimmerians and Skythians. The Skythians inhabited a wide range from the Carpathians to Liao River, so your father line could be just from there some where.
Some Hungarian Conquerors also R-CST1211 most likely from Srubna-Andronovo descent (also mtDNA shows in the same direction). It wi!l be hard to tel where your fathers line come from, but I think this is the most probable - through Skythian descent.

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The problem is we have no ancient DNA to go by, and based on modern distribution being dominant in Central Europe/West Slavs its the easiest bandwagon to get on. M458 I think was pivotal to the Slavic Ethnogenesis, or at least its descending clades. Theres alot of Nogai Turkic speakers were basal M458, even some clades under like L260 and L1029. If the oral legend of the West Slavs that the "sons of Avars with Slavic wives rebelled against their fathers under Samo" is true(if of course), than for all we know some M458 could have been from Avars or Sarmatians and what not. Some of the older theories was that M458 originated from Western Hungary. This isn't accepted though as Pannonians are regarded as Celtic/Illyrian "like". Interestingly the King of Pannoni(before being included under Illyricum after defeat of Rome) was called "Bato", a very commonly used Slavic name. Or perhaps adopted when they settled the area. I guess its just a waiting game for ancient samples. Being they practiced cremation heavily It could be an indication of its link to Proto-Slavs. I don't think steppe folk like Avars, Sarmatians etc cremated their dead. Though I could be wrong.

Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

350px-Bacukry.jpg
 
Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

350px-Bacukry.jpg

I think the name Bato among South Slavs started to be used mostly during the XX century, especially during the communism regime. Do they have medieval name Bato?
 
Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

350px-Bacukry.jpg
Hm, interesting. In hungarian bácsi means unkle/ elderly man and báty means older brother. Nagy báty means unkle. Nagy means big. Nagy bátyám literally my big older brother - my brother of my father - my uncle...

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Hm, interesting. In hungarian bácsi means unkle/ elderly man and báty means older brother. Nagy báty means unkle. Nagy means big. Nagy bátyám literally my big older brother - my brother of my father - my uncle...

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Ordas, i would like to ask you something but first of all i apologize to the other members for the off-topic.
You have a historical figure in Hungary called Pal Tomori. I have been curious about his name and surname. Because the name Pal in Albania is used by both, Catholics and Orthodox and is the Albanian form of the name Paul. Meanwhile Tomor is the name of an mountain here in Albania. Albania is full with mountains but this mountain is very specific, is a sacred mountain for Albanians and we call this mountain Father Tomor. I have been interested in other forums about this Pal Tomori, he is clearly an Hungarian, but i have never learned why there is this similarity. Do you have any idea? Thanks in advance.
 
Albanian. Bac/Bacë, meaning "Elder, Uncle" from proto Abanian "Batja". Bato is obviously related to Bacë. The Slavic version is a cognate with it, but wasn't present in the balkans in the time.

Bac is an omnipresent term, especially for heroes etc. For example the famous "Bac, u kry" slogan (Uncle, it's over) about Adem Jashari:

350px-Bacukry.jpg

Cool. Didn’t know that. Thank you. Idk why I don’t get notified when people reply. Is there a feature in settings I’m supposed to adjust?
 
It seems that r1a-p278.2 and other brother subclades, like indy0430 case, living in Carpathian mountains, may be linked to White Croats. Croat is known to be a Sarmatian tribe. See examples like Horvat, Sarmat, Massaget, Skolot etc.

Perhaps, p278.2 and its brother subclades appeared in South Sibiria/Russia. During its initial expansion, some Sarmathians might have moved to Carpathia, others to the south, Central Asia. This would explain why only Carpathian lines spread from China to Slovakia.

Any ideas or critics?
 
Hello, I am R1A Z280 CTS 1211. When Ysearch.org was still online I downloaded my results and plotted hundreds of my closest DNA relatives on a map of Europe. There were many close matches near Armenia, which I believe are my most distant DNA relatives. There are many scattered throughout Ukraine (Scythian I would believe), many in the Trans-Carpathian areas, more than a few in Poland, but the most in Northern Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden and Norway. There's a few scattered in Italy and all the way down to Sri Lanka (Indo-Aryan). My map matches closely with the Heruli, a nomadic Germanic tribe that traveled widely between 200-500AD. Any chance R1A Z280 CTS 1211 is Heruli?
 

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