New map of YDNA haplogroup R1a-CTS1211 (aka M558 or Y93)

Its interessing. Maybe could be it. I dont really know why i m Y2613. There are a lot possibilites. I usually talk about ostrogoths cause they settled in verona-vicenza area, however there are much more to find,the Croatian hypotesis should be true, however without bigY or even a documental confirmation i wont know.
 
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Wow, man, your Y-DNA is extremely rare for Central China. If youhad R1a-Z93 it could be easily assumed that you descended from one of the Tocharian or Iranian tribes that lived in what is now Western China, but R1a-Z280 is way more expected in Central and Eastern Europe and not very frequent anywhere in Asia as far as I know. It's mostly associated with Balto-Slavic peoples, so I can only imagine for now that your paternal ancestor lived in the Russian or Ukrainian steppe or forest-steppe areas and there he became a part (as a warrior, a slave, a merchant? We'll never know) of one of the far-reaching and very mobile tribal confederacies that often spanned roughly from Russia to Central Asia (Kyrghizstan, perhaps parts of Xinjiang).
Yes, I agree with you. Because I found 110 people of R1a in China, only two men(include me) is R1a European type (R1a1a1b1), and the rest are Z93 Asian type.My SNP results will come out less than a month later, and then I think it will be more clear.Thx :)
 
Sorry,Wonomyro , I could't reply you from the website,here is my reply:
Is it? This is really interesting, because I thought my ancestors came to China during the Mongolia Empire, but now I have a new idea:)
 
Sorry,Wonomyro , I could't reply you from the website,here is my reply:
Is it? This is really interesting, because I thought my ancestors came to China during the Mongolia Empire, but now I have a new idea:)
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.
 
Yes,that is possible, and the process of coming to East Asia may be a long time.
 
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.
Yes,that is possible, and the process of coming to East Asia may be a long time.
 
Hi, I have completed my SNP test. Now I have appeared in TREE under CTS3402-YP237-YP951. I am waiting for the update of YFULL. YFULL ID: ELT50012
 
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.

No one of tested Scythians weren't Z280.
 
Although my position haven't updated, I know that I am YP4530, and I will set up a new branch after the next update. YP4532 is my downstream. YP4530&YP4532 seems to be distributed in Western Ukraine and southeastern Poland. Do anyone know more about them? Thank you
 
There is still a possibility Scytho-Sarmatians or western most scythians could have carried Z280 as well. Maybe one got caught in eastern tribal movements.

It could be only captured Slavic prisoner among Scytho-Sarmatian tribes. Specific mutation for Indo-Iranian speakers happened as Z93, and the specifical one for Balto-Slavic speakers Z280.
 
Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?
 
It could be only captured Slavic prisoner among Scytho-Sarmatian tribes. Specific mutation for Indo-Iranian speakers happened as Z93, and the specifical one for Balto-Slavic speakers Z280.

Well you’re obviously dead wrong now. Considering the recent paper on Hums/Avars found Z280 in non-Slavic elite graves. That’s why it’s important not to be decisive and act like we have all the facts. You can’t possibly be an authority of ancient migrations be they individually or collectively.
 
Hi,

I have a similar situation to lndy0430. I am an ethnic Kyrgyz from Kyrgyzstan. As far as I know, my ancestors on the father side are ethnic Kyrgyz to at least 7 generations. Info about your fathers is transferred from the father to son in the Central Asian nomadic cultures.

I found that my Y haplogroup is R1a1a1b1a2b1 (R-P278.2). Surprisingly, this is not R1a-Z93 but a Slavic line. I am wondering if my ancestor on the father side came to Kyrgyzstan long time ago as a warrior or a slave from Carpatia as an Ancient Bulgar. It seems like present day Turkic speaking Gagauz people living around Carpathian mountains are remnants of those ancient Bulgars. An indirect evidence of their Bulgar origin is their Christian beliefs dating back to the times preceding the Ottoman Empire of the 13th century. Any ideas about that?


I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.
 
I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.
Thank you Dibran.

What do you mean how close your slavic YDNA matches are? The R-P278.2 seems to be the best possible subclade. Is there any publication matching more Snps rsid and location?

Also I do not understand you saying Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. Why are two ages different?

Is anything known of a massive migration towards the east? My and Indy0430 cases seem to be linked as the subclades come from Carpathian mountains.
 
I suppose it depends how close your slavic YDNA matches are. Recent paper on Huns/Avars/Magyars found Z280 in elite conqueror graves. Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. If you only match Slavs at the base level, then it could have been assimilated long before the migration. The recent paper references showed as much. These Z280 elite graves were non-Slavic and it appears their line was integrated before the migration period. So not every case is exactly the same. Depends on your matches and the distance.
Do you mean R-P278.2 was not Slavic back then because the Slavic migration happened in 6th century AD only?
 
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Thank you Dibran.

What do you mean how close your slavic YDNA matches are? The R-P278.2 seems to be the best possible subclade. Is there any publication matching more Snps rsid and location?

Also I do not understand you saying Your clades formed 1000BC but only has a recent ancestor to 100BC. Why are two ages different?

Is anything known of a massive migration towards the east? My and Indy0430 cases seem to be linked as the subclades come from Carpathian mountains.

When a clade is formed by a founder effect, exemple R1a-Z93 was formed at some point, it doesn't mean that the first R1a with the snp's for Z93 is the ancestor of all Z93 today, it's unlikely. Instead one of his kin became the ancestors of all modern Z93 at some point. The latter is called the Most Recent Common Ancestor.

It basically means that, if you are Z280, this clade formed at some point in time, and is found in modern Slavic peoples, but it doesn't mean your ancestor was Slavic, it could have came in Central Asia with Z93 at some point and became Turkic at some point too.
 
Merci beaucoup halfalp. I see your point. I think that the haplogroup diversity quickly falls over time in the isolated groups. E.g. I have two daughters. So any eventual SNP will disappear with me. The Kyrgyz people are an isolated group due to living in the mountains and thus preserving their original Z93 line.

So my argument is that the presence of such a rare haplogroup line (R-P278.2) may mean some mass migration at some point given the distance that separates Tian Shan from Carpathian mountains. The thing is that Saka/Scythian people with Z93 from Andronovo culture were already living in Central Asia when R-P278.2 got formed 3000 ybp. So the only way R-P278.2 appeared in Central Asia is a migration. I found though that some Tatars also have R-P278.2.

Whatever happened, I am still hoping to narrow down my R-P278.2 even more. The thing is that I cannot translate SNPs listed at yfull in the format like YP5285 * YP5286 * YP5284 to Reference SNP cluster IDs. If this were possible, I would track those rsids in my 23andme raw data myself. Does anyone know how to translate those SNPs to rsids?
 
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I agree. I am just wondering who brought M582 to Austria and Germany from the Steppes without leaving traces in between. The Huns ?



There are surely other subclades. Goga's L62 is extremely rare, but there are so many branches under Z93 that I don't see why those are found in other parts of the Middle East wouldn't occasionally show up in Kurdistan.
Could it be that the CTS1211 is odf Skytian-Sarmatian origin? Huns and Avars have alot of Z2124. Hungarian Conquerors had 3/29 CTS1211 and onevof them a VIP (grave K2/41) with rich grave goods.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/597997v1
To that time the western border of the hungarian theritory was the upper Ens river(today Austria), but they have done raids to Germany too. On the other hand proto slavic people could have got this SNP from Sarmatians. There were a lot of them in Roman legions, so they could have spread it a lot. Poland has also a lot of it and it is known they have some Sarmatian heritage too. Same for Hungarians and neighboring Slavs.
 
Also Slovaks/Slovenes have clear Slavic ethnonime whereas for Czechs and Croats it is up to fantasy and preferences of linguists (Scythian, Turkic, some forefathers..).
My overly pattern seeking mind tries to link m458 to unclear or non-Slavic ethnonimes for Slavic folk and m558 to clear Slavic ethnonimes.
It seems like that, but may be it's not a Proto Slavic but most likely a Skytho-Sarmatian SNP?
 

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